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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 6:26 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: right on man.... you gotta be kidding me about the hexes thing though, hexes rule.
I'll have to take your word for it. I've placed 3 hexes in the last 5 years. Just out of curiousity's sake.
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markc
May 31, 2007, 6:51 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Or (hasn't been mentioned yet!) traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk.
Um, several people did mention going off-route or traversing. Still, it's a worthy suggestion and a pretty punny follow-up.
On runout routes, being able to read the route and protection opportunities ahead, identify moves you won't be able to reverse, and carefully calculate your odds of success are all important. For that reason, it's good to lead below your limit while you develop those skills. As Jay said, there may not always be a happy ending. You have to decide going in that you're willing to take that chance.
If you're sure you can't go up, down, left, or right without falling, you're going to be in a scary and lonely place. If it's a slab, I'd most likely explain to my belayer what the problem is, then try to get as close to the last piece as I could before falling. In the meantime, my belayer should be ready to take as much slack as possible while I get ready to play hot-potato with the rock.
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cj1
May 31, 2007, 7:05 PM
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In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
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csproul
May 31, 2007, 7:10 PM
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Don't know about you, but I've led lots of things that I would be hard pressed to down climb! Especially if 30 ft over my last gear and the moves were difficult for me going up.
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jt512
May 31, 2007, 7:15 PM
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chalkfree wrote: Sure, there is something to be said about learning things the hard way, but there's also something to be said about not having to.
There's something to be said about using your brain instead of asking a stupid question on the internet.
Jay
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markc
May 31, 2007, 7:19 PM
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cj1 wrote: In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
It Depends (TM) on the nature of the route in question. I'm not one to try reversing certain bulges, and certainly not a lot of roofs. You're going to have a poor view of your feet, and I'm not quite sure how to get in position to reverse a twisting lock-off. Some moves are so thin and delicate that I wouldn't try to reverse them on lead.
Besides, downclimbing is an under-trained skill for many of us. The movements and body tension feel quite different to me. I'll gladly try to downclimb things on toprope. I'm less keen on trying to downclimb on lead anywhere near my limit while I'm gripped.
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dr_feelgood
May 31, 2007, 7:45 PM
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Take the whippa!
If you're gunna fall, you may as well enjoy it.
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Pdizz
May 31, 2007, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem.
no.....
you have exlpaind anything at all..
because you cant.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Pdizz wrote: In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. have you explaind the answer to him more than once? no..... you have exlpaind anything at all.. because you cant.
I am quoting you here because your barely literate response made me laugh. well done.
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medicus
May 31, 2007, 10:06 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Pdizz wrote: In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. have you explaind the answer to him more than once? no..... you have exlpaind anything at all.. because you cant. I am quoting you here because your barely literate response made me laugh. well done.
Yeah, you just have to completely ignore Pdizz. Nothing good ever comes out of his posts. He seems to be a firm believer in trying to just stir up crap and is useless beyond measure.
As for the hexes comment, I rarely use my 4 and 5, and rarely use 10 and 11, but I use the mid range sizes I have all the time.
The OP, I believe your question has been answered quite well at this point.
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bandycoot
May 31, 2007, 10:32 PM
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I've only found myself in that situation once. I tried to lead The Edge at Tahquitz. I made it through the hardest 10' part, but the next bolt was still a ways away. I had a foothold bread off, and somehow managed to not fall. It completely wrecked my confidence, since my success wasn't as tied to my skill level as I thought it was... the rock quality was worse than expected! I just started downclimbing until I fell. No big deal, but I was able to downclimb 5-10' before falling. So, I guess I'm saying there's a hybrid answer: downclimb, THEN express ride!
Josh
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snoopy138
May 31, 2007, 10:44 PM
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caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk.
You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one.
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shimanilami
May 31, 2007, 10:58 PM
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You could carry a bolting kit at all times ... although this may get you killed just as dead as decking would.
Or you could carry a parachute. You'd just have to be really quick to deploy it.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 11:10 PM
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snoopy138 wrote: caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk. You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one.
Oh yes, I am familiar with that route. The name, that is, haven't climbed it.
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el_layclimber
Jun 1, 2007, 1:28 AM
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In reply to: BTW, if anyone can tell me about the possible advantages of small hexes over nuts, I'm all ears! Or eyes? Oh forget it. I won't use them anyway. Big hexes either for that matter.
I don't use small hexes either, but I see little difference. If there is any miniscule advantage of a hex over a similarly sized nut, one would be in that it has 3 possible orientations, and potentially more range than a nut. Two of those surfaces also generate some passive camming action as well. Having the hex slung on cord might on occasion be advantageous.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 2:36 AM
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evanwish wrote: what are you supposed to do in the situation where you have to bail on a route where a fall would be very dangerous and protection is sparce?
j_ung gave the real word - sometimes you're just screwed - it can be fly and die. All in all it's an emotional exercise and if you aren't prepared to find a groove and flow with it you can find yourself in troubled waters. On the issue of protection, there isn't much you can do in the way of 'sparce', but having solid technical gear skills can allow you to make the most of whatever a climb offers up.
I typically end up in these situations doing groundup, onsight multipitch FAs where there is usually no knowing ahead of time what you may be getting into and you just have to deal. It's quite a different experience than heading up an existing climb you know has a runout. I prefer not knowing myself as, for whatever reason, I deal a lot better with a runout just happening than knowing in advance one is somehow looming over a pitch.
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dr_feelgood
Jun 1, 2007, 3:27 AM
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Hook + Tape = your friend.
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thegreytradster
Jun 1, 2007, 3:44 AM
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By definition a "runout" is something that you CAN NOT! bail from!
Don't buy a ticket unless you are prepared to stay for the last act! (know what you are geting into)
There used to be a concept of "the leader never falls" I started climbing when the disclamer "very often" was added. Now gear is treated like bolts in the gym and the "head game" is often lost at a future cost that you are now aluding to.
It's amazing what you can pull off when you think you are going to die.
do not consider this advice to step out on to terrain you are not prepared for
see Healje's post above!
A hook and tape won't save you. The only thing that will, is your abillity to "keep it together"
( oh and, From Bad Traverse, really is 4th)
(This post was edited by thegreytradster on Jun 1, 2007, 3:48 AM)
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snoopy138
Jun 1, 2007, 5:23 AM
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caughtinside wrote: snoopy138 wrote: caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk. You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one. Oh yes, I am familiar with that route. The name, that is, haven't climbed it.
And here I thought you were clever enough to come up with the pun on your own.
thegreytradster wrote: ( oh and, From Bad Traverse, really is 4th)
I'm not surprised. Angel's Fright really seems 5.4, White Maiden (well, when I was on route) felt 5.1, etc. Haven't done FBT, since I haven't gotten on any of the Bulge routes yet.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 5:34 AM
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thegreytradster wrote: There used to be a concept of "the leader never falls" I started climbing when the disclamer "very often" was added. Now gear is treated like bolts in the gym and the "head game" is often lost at a future cost that you are now aluding to.
I'm not an adherent to the "leader must not fall" school of thought, but thegreytradsters point is well worth repeating. Work gear and trad routes like bolts and sport routes and you may risk not developing the emotional head necessary to do runouts at your limit. Lots of sport climbers do them below their limit, but doing them at your limit is another game altogether.
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evanwish
Jun 1, 2007, 6:03 AM
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wow. YES!
if anyone could tell me the difference in usage of the small hexs and the medium nuts....
my only guess would be that the small hexs would possably be for a more parallel crack.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 8:34 AM
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Hexs are still fine pro though your milage can very by rock type. But by and large they've been deprecated by cams of the same size. I don't bother carrying the small ones anymore and only rarely carry the big ones. When I do it's usually a #9 or #10 for a specific placement I have in mind.
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reno
Jun 1, 2007, 3:06 PM
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cj1 wrote: In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
Overhanging routes.
Probably *possible*, but not easy.
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justthemaid
Jun 1, 2007, 3:08 PM
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...and the "Quote of the Day Award" goes to....
thegreytradster wrote: It's amazing what you can pull off when you think you are going to die. |
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