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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 3:25 PM
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clymbrchk wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different? Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them. You know, Josh, to me, it feels like your topic name kinda calls for a less-than-compassionate response. Maybe I'm missing something, but it kinda looked like you set the tone for this conversation by calling people pathetic? And yet, you were hoping for "this thread" to be different? Really?  Personally, I used to have really strong opinions on the matter until this grumpy old fart called BobD sat me down and bought me coffee. (It was Boulder, what do you expect?) By the time I finished my mocha latte, I didnt know which end was up. All that I remember is that he basically told me that I should consider keeping my mouth shut until I understood a bit more about bolting and chopping. So, I tried placing a bolt with a hand drill because that is my stance (bolts should be placed by hand), and then I tried chopping one. And then I shut the hell up and disappeared from the debate. So, that leaves me curious - who, in this thread, has actually chopped a bolt and/or placed one? In what type of rock and under what kind of conditions? Do you know the FA's where you climb? Have you personally talked/asked/debated with them about why they chose to place a bolt or not? (It's been my experience that you can pretty much buy a climber a beer and debate any topic under the sun.) Do you know the bolt choppers where you live? Agree or disagree, why would they chop it? In my experience, when you can start answering these questions, everything else starts to make sense, and the need to debate it on the internet kinda goes away. Not that I'm an expert. Because I'm not. But I did learn a LOT from that conversation that I felt compelled to share. Just my humble .02. n00b style.
It was a good .02. n00b or not.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 3:31 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different? Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them. Josh Such is the net. This thread struck me as similar to the "I wont fall one" you did a while back (I think it was you...). Unlike that, this is too hot a topic to theorize without taking a stance. Not to say that that one wasn't significant, but...
I am touched you remember. You are right, this is different. THat was more, dare I say trollish, to get a reaction. Not that I didn't believe what I was writing, but it was written in a way to bring people out.
This was real. And yes, by calling people pathetic, I once again am trying to bring people out. I don't have all the answers to this debate, but I AM making a judgement call on this one that I THINK is correct. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.
Josh
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billcoe_
Aug 8, 2007, 3:53 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: billcoe_ wrote: Dude, you're giving asswipes a bad name. Hello....Kettle....You're Black!
Touche!  Maybe it should have read, Asswipes like me!
Anyway, dude, so inflammatory:
blueeyedclimber wrote: ....yes, by calling people pathetic, I once again am trying to bring people out. I don't have all the answers to this debate, but I AM making a judgement call on this one that I THINK is correct. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Josh
Surely you cannot be so self assured after admitting you didn't know the whys of the issue to believe you have the one true answer?
Somebody in your local area disagrees with you dude, thats whats up, think of others as well. Go ask some of the long time locals what they are thinking about your issue. I'm about to start that process now on this very issue: ie, last night I realized that an established climb should have bolted anchors on top. I will post this online and start asking everyone I know who climbs in this area, and then everyone I meet out here the same questions, which is "Are you OK if I put an anchor into the top of Crackwarrior"?
I expect I will not do it until the end of the climbing year as it will take that long to solicite opinions...and if I even get 1 or 2 "NO F*EN WAY ASSHAT" comments, well, no bolts.
Unfortunately. But thats how you need to roll. Don't be so damn judgmental is my advice (not that you want that:-)
Think it over.
Later
Bill
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 4:09 PM
Post #54 of 117
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One of the more notable peaks in Yosemite is Cathedral Peak. She's a beauty right above Tuolumne Meadows along Budd Creek.
The peak holds enormous historical significance for those who care, for it was this peak John Muir famously soloed in the 1800s and went on to write about 'going to church' for the first time in California.
He soloed it in the 1800s.
Yet some 100 years later the Sierra Club saw fit to bolt a metal box to that summit. Subsdequent climbers intimidated by Muir's 20 feet of 4th class exposure, started rappeling from that box!
Well the box and bolts deteroriated and once again climbers had to (GASP!) down climb the 20 feet of 4th class.
Well, nowaways Cathedral Peak is considered beginner's ground. And as such lots and lots of beginners can find themselves on that summit contemplating Muir's scramb le.
So someone installed convenience rap anchors. I was appalled when I saw them.
Now the arguments pro and con spanned the usual 'who are YOU to dictate' to 'what's the big deal' to 'sacrilige!'
Those bolts were placed by an unknown party. They were subsequently chopped by an unknown party. The summit remains bolt free as of the last time I was up there a couple of months ago.
The operating principle out here in the wild wild west is simple... you have the opportunity to place a bolt. Soneone else has equal opportunity to chop the living shit out of it. Fraid there is nothing you can do about it really.
So bolters are Darwinized to understand where and where not they can place bolts, at the sharp end of a cold chisel.
And most of us think this is better than any 'managed' scenario suggested. We don't want your damned management plan. We like it the way it is.
I go back and forth on the Nichols thing. But when I see some of you express the 'great dumbing down of risk' the purposeful elimination of all x routes at a crag for example, or passionate 'pro-retro-bolt' arguments from those who declare the past dead and irrelevant?
When hear and see those arguments applied carte blanche as is done frequently on this site?
Me and a whole lot of other folks aren't so quick to damn Nichols.
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 8, 2007, 4:39 PM
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Look, Dingus, I'm not defending BEC. He's my friend, which is why I suggested in a rather *nicer* way earlier on in the thread that he get some actual info. Even suggested a good place to start. (Which he seems to have ignored, until someone suggested the same in rather a less nice fashion. Oh well).
Anyway, point is, with that all said, this:
dingus wrote: I go back and forth on the Nichols thing. But when I see some of you express the 'great dumbing down of risk' the purposeful elimination of all x routes at a crag for example, or passionate 'pro-retro-bolt' arguments from those who declare the past dead and irrelevant? When hear and see those arguments applied carte blanche as is done frequently on this site? Me and a whole lot of other folks aren't so quick to damn Nichols. DMT
... is just a bunch of smoke you're blowing on the issue. Who here is suggesting carte blanche on bolting, bolting every route, etc? No-one. You're making up a phony opponent and then lobbing him into BEC's camp. That's hardly fair.
If you like Nichols, just go ahead and admit it. Stand by your convictions, don't hide behind some theoretical Weschrist, who doesn't even exist here.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Aug 8, 2007, 4:40 PM)
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 4:52 PM
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cracklover wrote: Look, Dingus, I'm not defending BEC.
Good because BEC doesn't need defending. I was making MY point not rebutting his.
In reply to: ... is just a bunch of smoke you're blowing on the issue. Who here is suggesting carte blanche on bolting, bolting every route, etc? No-one. You're making up a phony opponent and then lobbing him into BEC's camp. That's hardly fair.
Its called thread drift. Look at the title of this thread. Now what were you saying????
Also I view the opinions as espoused by fracture and healyje to be the opposite side of the same fundamentalist coin. I don't agree with either of them and never will.
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 8, 2007, 5:38 PM
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Uh, Dingus, is it thread drift or not? Are you holding up Nichols as the answer to bolt defenders like BEC and the guy who put the bolts on Cathedral or no? Cause it sure sounds like it.
GO
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cracklover
Aug 8, 2007, 5:41 PM
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By the way, I agree that folks like Fracture are far out in left field. I just didn't see lumping them in with the sort of arguments that had been made thus far in *this* thread.
GO
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seric
Aug 8, 2007, 6:03 PM
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Fabienne: Which tradclimber is this?
Butch: It's a chopper, baby, a bolt chopper.
Fabienne: Which chopper is this?
Butch: It's Zed.
Fabienne: Who's Zed?
Butch: Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 6:17 PM
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cracklover wrote: Uh, Dingus, is it thread drift or not? Are you holding up Nichols as the answer to bolt defenders like BEC and the guy who put the bolts on Cathedral or no? Cause it sure sounds like it. GO
You're reading something into this I didn't write. I'm not going to defend Nichols. But I'm not going to damn him either. Sorry, you won't be painting me into that corner.
DMT
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 6:20 PM
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cracklover wrote: Look, Dingus, I'm not defending BEC. He's my friend, which is why I suggested in a rather *nicer* way earlier on in the thread that he get some actual info. Even suggested a good place to start. (Which he seems to have ignored, until someone suggested the same in rather a less nice fashion. Oh well). GO
I wasn't ignoring you, Gabe, it was good advice. But, when I am away from my computer rc.com is not exactly the first thing on my mind. I think I know who put the bolts in, so I need to get in touch with them.
As far as this thread goes, I need to explain something. One problem I am seeing (which is, I admit, of my own making) is that the post was a very specific event and very situational, BUT the title was very general and imflammatory to a lot of different people in different situations. I apologize for that, BUT any good fisherman needs some bait.
The way I see it (as far as the bolt war goes) is that the two extremes are very dangerous, just like in religion or politics. The "bolt everything" crowd and the "bolt nothing or it will be chopped" crowd are counderproductive and do not add anything to climbing. Extremists in anything lack the ability to see both sides and either don't have the ability or don't want to put themselves in the other's shoes.
Josh
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 6:21 PM
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cracklover wrote: By the way, I agree that folks like Fracture are far out in left field. I just didn't see lumping them in with the sort of arguments that had been made thus far in *this* thread. GO
Again... look at the title of the thread. Take it up with the OP.
Cheers buddy
DMT
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caughtinside
Aug 8, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Is the fact that the rock is junky and insignificant sufficient rationale to install TR bolts?
The op didn't mention the availability of natural anchors.
And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there? 
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Oh, one last point cracklover....
you took me to task for issuing the same sort of broad-bashing statement as the title of this thread.
Yet the example I gave was a local one, detailing one rap (or top rope anchor if you prefer), with the reasons for placing and the reasons for chopping CLEARLY indicated. Not one word of your criticism was directed at my very real world example of a bolt chopping I not only condoned but breiefly considered myself.
I dismissed myself as the lone vigalante because I don't consider the Meadows as my home turf. I'd leave it to one of our ST buddies to take care of that business.
But those bolts should never have been placed, it was an act of multi-generational disrespect. They should have been chopped, they WERE CHOPPED and I applaud the chopping as proper. I'd rather they get placed and chopped than to endure a YNP Bolt Management Plan, I know that for fucking sure.
Cheers again dude
DMT
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 7:11 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Is the fact that the rock is junky and insignificant sufficient rationale to install TR bolts?
Good question.
In reply to: The op didn't mention the availability of natural anchors.
Bolts were only on two lines where using natural anchors made it difficult to set up a good toprope (not impossible, just difficult).
In reply to: And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there?
This sounds a little elitist. Are you saying that climbing camps/classes should not exist. Everyone has got to start somewhere. I wish I went to one when I was a kid, it wouldn't have taken me so long to find it.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 7:12 PM
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dingus wrote: cracklover wrote: By the way, I agree that folks like Fracture are far out in left field. I just didn't see lumping them in with the sort of arguments that had been made thus far in *this* thread. GO Again... look at the title of the thread. Take it up with the OP. Cheers buddy DMT
Hey, I've got a name.....and I just explained the title.
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dingus
Aug 8, 2007, 7:56 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Hey, I've got a name.....
And I've got bait.
In reply to: and I just explained the title.
Thanks. I explained my response too. Take it up with that other feller.
Cheers
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 8, 2007, 8:12 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: As far as this thread goes, I need to explain something. One problem I am seeing (which is, I admit, of my own making) is that the post was a very specific event and very situational, BUT the title was very general and imflammatory to a lot of different people in different situations. I apologize for that, BUT any good fisherman needs some bait. The way I see it (as far as the bolt war goes) is that the two extremes are very dangerous, just like in religion or politics. The "bolt everything" crowd and the "bolt nothing or it will be chopped" crowd are counderproductive and do not add anything to climbing. Extremists in anything lack the ability to see both sides and either don't have the ability or don't want to put themselves in the other's shoes.
Yup, and you placed yourself firmly in the camp of "don't want to put themselves in the other's shoes." I can't blame you for that - it's hard to bait a hook without something juicy. It's all good. But for the real world, I'm glad you're trying to actually find out the real deal.
GO
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caughtinside
Aug 8, 2007, 8:31 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: caughtinside wrote: And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there? This sounds a little elitist. Are you saying that climbing camps/classes should not exist. Everyone has got to start somewhere. I wish I went to one when I was a kid, it wouldn't have taken me so long to find it. Josh
I don't care where people start. But I think climbing would be better off without people trying to make a buck catering to gumbies who lack the wherewithall to learn on their own. Group climbing is lame.
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cracklover
Aug 8, 2007, 8:34 PM
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dingus wrote: Oh, one last point cracklover.... you took me to task for issuing the same sort of broad-bashing statement as the title of this thread.
Yeah, I think what I really objected to in your post was the notion that because there are people on the net who espouse the philosophy (with apologies to Monty Python) Every bolt is sacred, every bolt is great - if a bolt gets chopp-ed, God gets quite irate. That because of these people, you're glad there are folks like Nichols. Well Ken Nichols does nothing to improve the situation so far as I can see. Plus, as you and I agree, each situation is a local one, with its own dynamic. So bringing the ghost of Fracture into this argument just seemed like, well, importing your own hornets nest onto the climb, and then trying to stir it up. Hey, big surprise, you got a couple stings.
No worries, you've got a thick hide after all these years on the interweb, I'm sure.
Cheers, mate.
GO
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 9:31 PM
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caughtinside wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: caughtinside wrote: And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there? This sounds a little elitist. Are you saying that climbing camps/classes should not exist. Everyone has got to start somewhere. I wish I went to one when I was a kid, it wouldn't have taken me so long to find it. Josh I don't care where people start. But I think climbing would be better off without people trying to make a buck catering to gumbies who lack the wherewithall to learn on their own. Group climbing is lame.
Do you seriously believe that guides are in it for the money ?[/laugh]
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caughtinside
Aug 8, 2007, 9:36 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: caughtinside wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: caughtinside wrote: And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there? This sounds a little elitist. Are you saying that climbing camps/classes should not exist. Everyone has got to start somewhere. I wish I went to one when I was a kid, it wouldn't have taken me so long to find it. Josh I don't care where people start. But I think climbing would be better off without people trying to make a buck catering to gumbies who lack the wherewithall to learn on their own. Group climbing is lame. Do you seriously believe that guides are in it for the money ?[/laugh]
"Bolt Choppers are Pathetic!!" 
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quiteatingmysteak
Aug 8, 2007, 9:52 PM
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Once again, I find myself agreeing with Dingus. Common sense is a lost art.
Now back to the 'There Is No Grey Area' discussions. This is getting interesting.
where's Majid anyway?
-GDavis
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billcoe_
Aug 8, 2007, 10:09 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: As far as this thread goes, I need to explain something. One problem I am seeing (which is, I admit, of my own making) is that the post was a very specific event and very situational, BUT the title was very general and imflammatory to a lot of different people in different situations. I apologize for that, BUT any good fisherman needs some bait. The way I see it (as far as the bolt war goes) is that the two extremes are very dangerous, just like in religion or politics. The "bolt everything" crowd and the "bolt nothing or it will be chopped" crowd are counderproductive and do not add anything to climbing. Extremists in anything lack the ability to see both sides and either don't have the ability or don't want to put themselves in the other's shoes. Josh
Why didn't you say so the first time? Now I think we are agreeing. BTW, one time, in a staunch trad area which I have climbed at for 35 years, some friends bolted a variation and I led it.
The bolts were chopped. Had I come out swinging, angry and all offensive like, it would have been even more of a public embarrassment when I learned that another climber had supposedly just led it (with an R/X rating) a month or 2 sooner.
Thats why I suggested you gather some facts first. Still, some things one never may know, and for those instances, I suppose you just have to swear !
Good luck with it.
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secretninja
Aug 8, 2007, 10:33 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Is the fact that the rock is junky and insignificant sufficient rationale to install TR bolts? The op didn't mention the availability of natural anchors. And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there?
This is one of the more retarded posts i've seen on rc.com lately. Would you rather have random n00blets running amok without supervision? I think you can compare them quite nicely to driver education. Lame? Absolutely. I HATE getting stuck behind one of those drivers ed cars doing 80 in the 100 zone almost as much as it drives me nuts having 30 munchkins underfoot at the crag. However, i would much rather have that same driver NOT T-bone me by running a light 5 years from now, just like i would rather not have some wanker kick uncalled choss on me because no one taught him differently. Use you head for more than a hatrack, CIS, and look at the big picture.
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