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uni_jim
May 8, 2008, 3:33 AM
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Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC.
1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me. after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning? if not could you please explain why your way is better?
2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why?
3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why?
4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall?
I appreciate any advice you give, but please dont call me troll or tell me to take a lesson.
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coastal_climber
May 8, 2008, 4:01 AM
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1) Yes, as long as there isn't too much rope in the system that the climber has a posibility of decking.
2) Depends how far they are up the route, the farther they are, the more rope out already, therefore less need to give a dynamic belay.
3) 5 feet is plenty, just lock off and go for the ride, if there even is one.
4) Unless the leader is in danger of decking or hitting a ledge/obstruction, there is no need.
>Cam
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stymingersfink
May 8, 2008, 4:25 AM
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uni_jim wrote: Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC. 1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me. after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning? if not could you please explain why your way is better? 2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why? 3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why? 4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall? I appreciate any advice you give, but please dont call me troll or tell me to take a lesson.
OTOH, maybe Jay could get you trained up right proper like.
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jt512
May 8, 2008, 5:22 AM
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uni_jim wrote: Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC. 1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me.
5 feet to the side is too far. Try 2 feet. You want to be just far enough to the side so that the climber won't fall on top of you. If your partner outweighs you, a couple of feet can be the difference between him decking and not.
In reply to: ...after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning?
It depends. On many routes, the climber can still deck while clipping the third bolt, so you still don't want to be directly under him. Additionally, as the climber ascends and clips additional pro, the friction in the system increases, and so the force on the belayer will be reduced if the climber falls. Therefore, the belayer can stand further back from the wall. The advantages of this are twofold: one, the belayer will be able to see climber better; and, two, the belayer will be able to effect a dynamic belay merely by allowing himself to get pulled forward a step or two if the climber falls.
In reply to: 2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why?
In principle, letting rope slide through the ATC is superior, because it gives the belayer more control, and can be used on multipitch climbs, when the belayer is anchored.
A jump is a jump, but with practice you can let as little or as much rope slide through the device as the particular fall dictates.
In reply to: 3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why?
Why you would ask such a question had me baffled initially, but I think I see where you are coming from now. When a climber falls from a vertical route, he usually does not fall straight down; rather, he falls away from the wall and arcs back in. That should answer your question. In case it doesn't, usually this situation would call for a dynamic belay; but not always. You still have to have situational awareness (to borrow a phrase from the aviation community).
In reply to: 4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall?
First of all, why do you have slack to pull up in the first place!? The amount of slack you have in the rope should mainly be determined by the fall you anticipate, so usually no adjustment of slack should be necessary. However, in the real world, you might find yourself occasionally with too much slack out, in which case, pull it in; but not so much so that you put the climber on tension. That will swing him into the wall. Additionally, with practice, when your climber peels, you can initially take in slack, and then, if he's safely off the ground let it out again by dynamically belaying. If the climber falls, say, below the third bolt, and you're not sure whether you can safely dynamically belay, or not. If you're quick, you can drop into a squatting position as he peels, and then as the rope just begins to come tight, make a quick decision, depending on how close to the ground he is, whether to stay crouched and minimize the fall distance, or stand up to give a dynamic belay. I guess this is "advanced" belaying, but I assure that with experience you can do it. I do it all the time, and I doubt that my reflexes are out of the ordinary.
Jay
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hafilax
May 8, 2008, 4:34 PM
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The only thing I would add is that when belaying a leader through a roof make sure that they won't swing and hit their head on the lip. Leave some extra slack so that they will fall clear of it.
I learned the importance of dynamic belays watching my buddy sprain his ankle from slamming into the wall after a hard catch.
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uni_jim
May 8, 2008, 5:48 PM
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Thanks for the help everyone. I had all ready read the threads you linked to, but there was not a lot there that seemed to help me. I will be both outdoors and indoors.
another question. When i go for my lead test indoors, they will be watching for an "appropriate ammount of slack." I hear people saying that gyms are of the mind that the shorter the fall the better, so on their four draw test wall, should i be keeping just a small loop of rope in front of my device? (there is nothing to hit)
(This post was edited by uni_jim on May 8, 2008, 5:50 PM)
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2008, 6:38 PM
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uni_jim wrote: another question. When i go for my lead test indoors, they will be watching for an "appropriate ammount of slack." I hear people saying that gyms are of the mind that the shorter the fall the better, so on their four draw test wall, should i be keeping just a small loop of rope in front of my device? (there is nothing to hit)
I think there are a lot of different opinions on this. I belay some people who want a fair amount of slack in the system so that they don't ever feel rope drag. This is different from them wanting a longer fall, so be aware of this request.
I typically give out enough slack to allow the person to clip, I then pull in as if they are on top rope until they get above the clip. At which point, I allow their harness to pull the rope up above the clip as they go upward. I try very hard to anticipate two things: the potential for rope drag and the potential for an unexpected clip (i.e. - they clip from a position I wouldn't have thought they would have clipped from). I try to adjust and leave a bit more slack in the system so that the climber doesn't feel as if they are ever being short-roped, but not so much that they don't have a huge, unessesary fall if they peel. For me, I try to play a game where i give out as little rope as I need to without affecting the climber's clipping or moving discretion (i.e. - if they don't feel it, they're probably OK), but always make sure that I either feed or jump to give a soft catch.
Of course, as someone noted above, you'll want a bit more rope out when the climber is above a roof.
Good luck.
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pentapitch
May 10, 2008, 6:22 PM
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one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms).
assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader.
if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps.
this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough
try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader.
(This post was edited by pentapitch on May 10, 2008, 6:23 PM)
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jt512
May 10, 2008, 6:28 PM
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pentapitch wrote: one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms). assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader. if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps. this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader.
Try that technique at the second bolt, as you suggest, and eventually you're going to drop your partner. Learn to use your belay device properly, so you can stand still and belay from whatever the optimal position might be.
Jay
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pentapitch
May 10, 2008, 10:34 PM
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why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing??
if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up??
to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.
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crackrn
May 10, 2008, 11:58 PM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.
I thought he gave the OP plenty of good information to work with. Additionally, his post to you was rather benign all things considered.
(This post was edited by crackrn on May 10, 2008, 11:59 PM)
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pentapitch
May 11, 2008, 12:26 AM
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yea, cause over the past 12 years on 5 continents I've dropped hundreds of lead climbers. the lawsuits are killing me.
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stymingersfink
May 11, 2008, 3:52 AM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.  
this outta be good.
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uni_jim
May 12, 2008, 9:43 PM
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pentapitch wrote: one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms). assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader. if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps. this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader.
wouldn't moving away from the wall make a fall pull me toward the rock, thus increasing the fall distance? Isn't that why you are supposed to belay from below the first pice?
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blueeyedclimber
May 14, 2008, 6:52 PM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.
Jay may be a wanker, but he is usually spot on with his advice. Being a moving belayer is very useful, but not when the climber is close to the ground (like at the 2nd bolt).
Josh
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shockabuku
May 14, 2008, 6:58 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs [image]http://www.popcornsupply.com/ProdImages/sm_clsdtopbox.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/1186.png[/image] this outta be good.
Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay.
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Gmburns2000
May 14, 2008, 7:16 PM
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shockabuku wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs this outta be good. Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay.
Do we keep the thread alive until he notices it?
BTW - Josh and Jay got it right above.
Edit: fixed the images so that they appeared
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on May 14, 2008, 7:19 PM)
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stymingersfink
May 14, 2008, 11:14 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: shockabuku wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs this outta be good. Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay. Do we keep the thread alive until he notices it? BTW - Josh and Jay got it right above. Edit: fixed the images so that they appeared
See?
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Perfecto
May 15, 2008, 3:23 AM
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I had an odd experience once when my climber fell in an awkward manner and some random guy who was watched yelled at me, saying I need to learn how to belay.(been doing it 15 years now). She had clipped a draw into the rope and a gear loop, so for the next bolt she would only have to remove the draw and clip the hangar. She fell before she could, and told me to catch her, so I moved to tension the anchor behind me and locked off. When she fell (bolt at her feet, short fall) the rope pulled on her gear loop and broke it, twisted her around she hit her shoulder. The route was a little overhung, no injuries but she lowered off.
My question is, what was this guy meaning that I did wrong? I locked off so she would have the shortest fall, there was 40ft of rope out, plenty of dynamic stretch there.
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blueeyedclimber
May 15, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Perfecto wrote: I had an odd experience once when my climber fell in an awkward manner and some random guy who was watched yelled at me, saying I need to learn how to belay.(been doing it 15 years now). She had clipped a draw into the rope and a gear loop, so for the next bolt she would only have to remove the draw and clip the hangar. She fell before she could, and told me to catch her, so I moved to tension the anchor behind me and locked off. When she fell (bolt at her feet, short fall) the rope pulled on her gear loop and broke it, twisted her around she hit her shoulder. The route was a little overhung, no injuries but she lowered off. My question is, what was this guy meaning that I did wrong? I locked off so she would have the shortest fall, there was 40ft of rope out, plenty of dynamic stretch there.
The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree).
Josh
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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 12:09 AM
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... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man...
here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first...
To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be)
Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack.
...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best...
so if you have any more ? fill free to ask...
and do what I said before lose the atc and get a grigri. I can tell you how to use that later. It is the best investment you will ever make in you climbing life.
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 12:28 AM
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fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best...
Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice.
In reply to: and do what I said before lose the atc and get a grigri. I can tell you how to use that later.
I can't wait to hear your advice on that.
Jay
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:35 AM
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pentapitch wrote: to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.
Actually, he's sort of an institution around here, and I wouldn't consider him an abnormally large wanker in any respect.
That said, grab some Vaseline. You're gonna need it.
stymingersfink wrote: grabs
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 12:40 AM)
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kriso9tails
May 16, 2008, 1:17 AM
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jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice.
I think it's solid advice. I mean, you can't die climbing if you don't climb and you can't climb if your ankles are broken, so naturally the best way to protect your climber's life is to belay as described above.
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 1:27 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice. I think it's solid advice. I mean, you can't die climbing if you don't climb and you can't climb if your ankles are broken, so naturally the best way to protect your climber's life is to belay as described above.
Just be sure to break both ankles. This is what happens when the belayer only does half the job:
Jay
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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 1:42 AM
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jt512
When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP!
www.8anu.com
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 1:52 AM
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fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anu.com
I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up.
Josh
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 1:59 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: [ I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up. Josh
Yeah, because no one lies on the internet 
Most of the reason I don't bother with any kind of profile mess on here is twofold:
1) I'm too lazy.
2) I don't need the internet to validate my "sick skilzz".
People who actually climb with me know the deal, and people who draw conclusions from rc.n00b...well, they get what's comin' to 'em. It would be a cold day in hell before I treated this forum as something other than a place to watch for accident reports and product recalls.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 2:00 AM)
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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 2:06 AM
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well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
(This post was edited by fyj434 on May 16, 2008, 2:08 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 2:37 AM
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ja1484 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: [ I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up. Josh Yeah, because no one lies on the internet Most of the reason I don't bother with any kind of profile mess on here is twofold: 1) I'm too lazy. 2) I don't need the internet to validate my "sick skilzz". People who actually climb with me know the deal, and people who draw conclusions from rc.n00b...well, they get what's comin' to 'em. It would be a cold day in hell before I treated this forum as something other than a place to watch for accident reports and product recalls.
You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice.
Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot.
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stymingersfink
May 16, 2008, 2:44 AM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
Oh, and might I respectfully suggest you start attending your classes at school? Pay special attention while in your English class. Majid makes better posts than you do.
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kriso9tails
May 16, 2008, 2:59 AM
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fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anu.com
Seven days a week? That's bad for your health. I started onsighting 11a and harder nine years ago or so when I was sixteen, and back then I used to do stretches of climbing five to eight consecutive days even though I knew it was a bad idea, but I guess that means you're graciously allowing me to speak... how kind of you.
So now that it's my turn to speak, is this how you play the game: Until you learn how to post a fucking link, take it from someone who isn't a retard... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
I like this game, but sadly based on my post, I don't think you'll be allowed to post again. 'Tis a shame.
(oh, and with a little sincerity, trolling is what it is 'n all, but I've seen one person break their ankle and another sprain in severely because someone took while the climber was above the bolt, so if you're going to post 'joke' advice, try not to make it something that's going to get some beginner or their climbing partner injured.)
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 3:22 AM
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fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope.
Jay
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coastal_climber
May 16, 2008, 3:29 AM
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jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend. You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope. Jay
fyj434 = OWNED
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Perfecto
May 16, 2008, 6:05 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh
I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer.
Also, when you "soft catch" someone, are you letting the rope slip through your hand then tightening the grip, or just holding the rope 2 feet from the device and bringing the hand closer, feeding that 2 feet through to soften the fall?
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 7:05 AM
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Perfecto wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer.
When you're that high on an overhanging route there is no risk from making the fall a little longer. All the risk comes from the force with which the climber swings into the wall. Even on a factor-.2 fall, if the belayer just locks off, the climber can swing hard into the wall. The point of the dynamic catch is that it reduces the swing into the wall; therefore, it actually lessens the risk of the fall.
Jay
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curt
May 16, 2008, 7:46 AM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush...
Huh, I figured it was because you mistyped retards.com.
Curt
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:01 PM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
I'm sorry, but if you lack the intelligence for a coherent sentence in English, I am *never* going to believe any claim you make about belaying prowess for two reasons.
First, I'm not entirely sure you're even talking about belaying. Second, learning your way around nouns and verbs is far easier than correctly belaying a leader.
Have fun being a "rock wall supervisor"!
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 12:02 PM)
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:05 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice. Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot.
Yeah, in this instance I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I still don't need the profile - I don't care how hard someone climbs if they act like that.
As for JT, he ain't that bad. He's just cranky when he should be, because the tendency around here is to fire out a question or start an oblique discussion on something that the OP could've found out for themselves (easily) with the resources available and a little reading.
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 12:26 PM
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ja1484 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice. Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot. Yeah, in this instance I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I still don't need the profile - I don't care how hard someone climbs if they act like that. As for JT, he ain't that bad. He's just cranky when he should be, because the tendency around here is to fire out a question or start an oblique discussion on something that the OP could've found out for themselves (easily) with the resources available and a little reading.
I think I thought I was replying to fyj434 when I wrote that. It wasn't directed at you. I never even looked at who wrote it. ooopps!
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dondada
May 16, 2008, 12:31 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend. You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope. Jay fyj434 = OWNED
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phillygoat
May 16, 2008, 2:36 PM
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Perfecto wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer. Also, when you "soft catch" someone, are you letting the rope slip through your hand then tightening the grip, or just holding the rope 2 feet from the device and bringing the hand closer, feeding that 2 feet through to soften the fall?
If this took place at French's Dome a couple of years ago, then I'm the guy that snapped at you because you gave that poor gal you were climbing with the worst catch I'd ever seen! I had watched her take a series of short falls while still below the highest clipped bolt. You were belaying her while anchored in with something like 20ft of webbing to a distant tree, which put you about 10-15ft back from the wall. Her short falls took all of the slack out of the system until, when she finally climbed above the high bolt, the entire rope/anchor webbing combo was taut.
In hindsight, I should have intervened on her behalf, because anyone except you two could see what was going to happen next- she fell while you hunkered back on an already tight rope, wrenching her painfully backwards and slamming her into the wall. Sorry to be harsh, but if you still don't know why some dude yelled at you a couple of years ago, you shouldn't be belaying. Despite your helmets and anchors, you were the most dangerous folks at that little sport crag that day.
I don't like the fact that I yelled at you, but -jesus- was it nerve-wracking to watch. I guess I just couldn't take it anymore. It was a crowded day and you two were freaking everyone out. So... if this was you- sorry for yelling, but c'mon- let's get with the program. If it wasn't you- well, I hope you enjoyed my little story about the "worst catch I'd ever seen!"
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Perfecto
May 17, 2008, 12:33 AM
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I think it might have been me, on the 5.10b/c. I wish you had offered at the time to explain how I should have been belaying. Yelling did nothing constructive, I wasn't that pissed at you though, you probably didn't realize the fall was so awkward because of the way her quickdraw was clipped. Had that not been the case, she simply would have had a short fall with an abrupt stop, no twisted around or hitting the wall.
I was belaying her tight because she wanted me to, I would have been comfortable with a looser belay. I don't believe at the time she fell that her weight had tensioned the system, as she had led several feet above the last bolt, I just took all the slack out because she knew she was going to fall and wanted me to(I know from years of climbing together).
I still am having a hard time understanding how any of this was dangerous. My actions as a belayer were to minimizing the distance of her fall, partly because that's how she climbs. This was a bolted route, and any increase force on the gear was negligible, factor .2 fall right? The awkwardness/hitting the wall was from the bad quickdraw clip. At no time was she in any danger of falling. She really wasn't injured at all, just mentally tired(doesn't do many lead falls).
Please respond with some helpful comments about why short falls are bad, and that "soft catch" technique that I still don't have an answer to, other than don't pre-tension the belay anchor. I do take issue with your statement we were dangerous. At no time was anyone in danger of hitting the ground, and helmets were worn for a reason. It may not have been perfect, but it was far from improper belay technique.
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dutyje
May 17, 2008, 12:50 AM
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fyj434 -
I've stayed entirely out of this thread so far.. but "jump if the leader is on slab"???!!?
If my belayer had jumped when I took the fall at Stone Mountain, I'd have decked. In fact, if he hadn't gone running into the woods pulling in all the slack he had, I still probably would have decked. Instead, I managed to only take the most painful, palm-shredding, clothes-tearing, raspberry-making nasty-assed 20-foot shredder I could possibly imagine.
Frankly, I've seen enough of Jay on this site to know I'd trust him to catch my falls under any circumstances. Of course, I'd never climb with him in the first place, but that's mostly because we'd likely be interested in tackling very different terrain, of very different grade.
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phillygoat
May 17, 2008, 3:13 AM
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Perfecto wrote: I think it might have been me, on the 5.10b/c. I wish you had offered at the time to explain how I should have been belaying. Yelling did nothing constructive, I wasn't that pissed at you though, you probably didn't realize the fall was so awkward because of the way her quickdraw was clipped. Had that not been the case, she simply would have had a short fall with an abrupt stop, no twisted around or hitting the wall. I was belaying her tight because she wanted me to, I would have been comfortable with a looser belay. I don't believe at the time she fell that her weight had tensioned the system, as she had led several feet above the last bolt, I just took all the slack out because she knew she was going to fall and wanted me to(I know from years of climbing together). I still am having a hard time understanding how any of this was dangerous. My actions as a belayer were to minimizing the distance of her fall, partly because that's how she climbs. This was a bolted route, and any increase force on the gear was negligible, factor .2 fall right? The awkwardness/hitting the wall was from the bad quickdraw clip. At no time was she in any danger of falling. She really wasn't injured at all, just mentally tired(doesn't do many lead falls). Please respond with some helpful comments about why short falls are bad, and that "soft catch" technique that I still don't have an answer to, other than don't pre-tension the belay anchor. I do take issue with your statement we were dangerous. At no time was anyone in danger of hitting the ground, and helmets were worn for a reason. It may not have been perfect, but it was far from improper belay technique.
Ok... where to begin....
It's not my responsibility to teach you, and frankly, I'm surprised that you've been climbing for years and fail to understand why you were indeed dangerous.
That catch couldn't have been harder had she tied directly into the bolt with some webbing, climbed above it, and dropped- I'm amazed she didn't rupture her kidneys or break her back. You obviously seem to think that a shorter fall is always safer and that the fact you kept the climber off the deck means that you're doing your job.
I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but you need to start from the beginning. While it's great that you can compute fall factors, wear helmets and tie water knots, you somehow missed some real world experience watching and learning. I mean, haven't you noticed at Smith how casually some climbers fall, and how soft the catch is?!
I'm not trying to assuage my ego by pretending to be the expert- I'm simply trying to let you know that I've never seen such a bad catch in my thousands of days climbing. You need to recognize that keeping your leader "safe" means much more than locking off the rope. I'd recommend holding off on belaying a lead climber until you understand more about it. To learn this stuff well takes more than internet research.
Just last year the boyfriend of my wife's friend was in the exact same spot as you were- same route and everything. Complete deja vu- as she says she's about to fall, her boyfriend takes in slack, pulling her down. I didn't know him well, but told him to ease up and continued to instruct him while he gave her a perfect catch.
Good luck, and if I see you out there this summer i'd be happy to show you some falls and soft catches. I'm quite good at falling.
(This post was edited by phillygoat on May 17, 2008, 4:46 PM)
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Perfecto
May 17, 2008, 5:09 AM
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Just searching for more info on the subject, came across a relevant passage from How to Rock Climb by John Long 3rd edition
Page 111
The Belay
When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected
from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if
not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack
between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him
around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands,
resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station
yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the
fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the
flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben
Page 95 Belaying the Leader
Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take
your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay
anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; …
So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
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stymingersfink
May 17, 2008, 6:08 AM
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Perfecto wrote: Just searching for more info on the subject, came across a relevant passage from How to Rock Climb by John Long 3rd edition Page 111 The Belay When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands, resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber. &&&&&&&&&&&&& Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben Page 95 Belaying the Leader Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; … So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
There are many different circumstances where prioviding the leader with the shortest fall is not the best course of action. Regardless, the best course of action is the one which will result in the safest catch for the leader.
The problem with this is, it relies on one building enough experience to anticipate the correct reaction to various situations, and n00b-ish leaders today would seem to trust any belayer fresh outta the box. This misplaced trust may eventually expose them to falls far more dangerous than necessary. The problem is, the inexperienced leader just doesn't know better.
I may not be physically able to climb 5.12+, but you'd better damn well believe that I can safely belay a leader attempting to send one. This is something that comes with experience, and an ability to anticipate the proper reaction before it becomes necessary to become action.
Until you have come to grips with the challenge of anticipating the proper reaction, I hope you's leader doesn't get damaged due to your own mistakes.
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uni_jim
May 19, 2008, 3:41 AM
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Perfecto wrote: blah blah blah... Page 111 The Belay When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands, resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber. &&&&&&&&&&&&& - unnecesary use of "&" Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben Page 95 Belaying the Leader Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; … So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
yeah, so all you did to help was tell me that mr. John Long thinks i should anchor. I said in my first post to "assume i am unanchored" when giving answers to my questions, not "uh, i tink i shud ankor. wat u gyes tink?" If i were to have asked the later, i would have recieved an avalanch of "always do this, never do that, and absolutes are absolutely not allowed in the hills." along with links to other threads (which i have already read) where other new leaders have asked the dreaded anchoring question.
wow, now that i am done blowing off your utterly unhelpful post, i will regurgitate what i have been told on this thread, thought about, and decided it makes sense.
dynamic belay
-better to let atc slip a bit. do this when there is
more friction in the system from draws (winding
routs etc.)
- easier/safer (less risk of dropping) to lock off
leaders fall and be lifted. not to be done when
belayer can be pulled into hazards.
stance
-two feet to side of first bolt until second or third
draws are cliped. directly beneath after that.
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uni_jim
May 19, 2008, 3:49 AM
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Vertical walls
-give a dynamic belay (when safe to do so) on
vertical walls
Slab
-minimize fall distance on slab by taking in slack
before and during the fall, or run for the trees.
Falls from high
-no need to pull in all the slack, just try to give
the shortest comfortable fall. soft catch when
safe.
Falls from low
-take in slack, give a soft catch when safe to do
so.
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Perfecto
May 19, 2008, 4:35 AM
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Sorry for hijacking your thread, my post wasn't directed at you, just one particular situation where I was anchored.
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theguy
May 19, 2008, 9:15 AM
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Perfecto wrote: I was belaying her tight because she wanted me to, I would have been comfortable with a looser belay... I still am having a hard time understanding how any of this was dangerous.
As others have explained, there are reasons this was dangerous, and that you should have been uncomfortable with a tight belay.
If you had that knowledge, you'd then be in the position of making a decision between your leader's safety and their perception of what was safe; I have been in this situation and given priority to the climber's judgement (after some discussion), since it's primarily their risk. I have had a climber fall directly on my head as a result: yet another reason to wear a helmet :)
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bigo
May 19, 2008, 4:53 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...m/gforum.cgi?t=37947
Next time you are at Smith or maybe even an French's stop and watch some of the 'good' climbers lob off of their projects. Most aren't necessarily taking the smallest fall possible - for a reason.
When I finally learned how to give a good belay and require that I get one, it was by far the biggest factor in allowing me to climb more confidently and harder.
(This post was edited by bigo on May 19, 2008, 4:54 PM)
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uni_jim
May 19, 2008, 5:48 PM
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no problem, i would just like to keep on topic.
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quiteatingmysteak
May 19, 2008, 6:44 PM
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fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anu.com
So much spray, aaugh my eyes!!!
You're right though, this site isn't for you, stick to 8a. There is no ranking and no puffery, the average member is around 30 years old not 17, and no one cares how hard you climb, only if you have anything to say.
You have nothing to say. Have fun at The Spot where you can bitch about how all problems are "reachy" and you need "girl beta" and real climbing is defined as paint by numbers.
Nevermind, it says here you are from the Southwest. No wonder you got a chip on your shoulder.
See, the internet is fun!
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stymingersfink
May 19, 2008, 10:49 PM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anus.comSo much spray, aaugh my eyes!!! You're right though, this site isn't for you, stick to 8a. There is no ranking and no puffery, the average member is around 30 years old not 17, and no one cares how hard you climb, only if you have anything to say. You have nothing to say. Have fun at The Spot where you can bitch about how all problems are "reachy" and you need "girl beta" and real climbing is defined as paint by numbers. Nevermind, it says here you are from the Southwest. No wonder you got a chip on your shoulder. See, the internet is fun!
don't mention it
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knieveltech
May 19, 2008, 11:30 PM
Post #56 of 57
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1431
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
It never ceases to amaze me when folks get bunched up on the net over the dumbest shit and then instantly transform into the biggest dumbass spraylords you've ever seen. Like spraying on the internet has won arguments in the past or something.
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Perfecto
May 20, 2008, 1:00 AM
Post #57 of 57
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Registered: May 15, 2008
Posts: 9
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jt512 wrote: When you're that high on an overhanging route there is no risk from making the fall a little longer. All the risk comes from the force with which the climber swings into the wall. Even on a factor-.2 fall, if the belayer just locks off, the climber can swing hard into the wall. The point of the dynamic catch is that it reduces the swing into the wall; therefore, it actually lessens the risk of the fall. Jay
Somehow I missed this part of the discussion, it makes alot of sense. You don't need to lessen the upward force on the climber, but the inward pull. A short fall is worse than a long one because when the rope comes taut, the angle of the rope distributes more foce to the horizontal component(think triangles) If the climber was 2 feet from the wall and fell 4 feet below the bolt than ~50% of the total tension in the rope will be pulling the climber in to the wall. The shorter the fall, the greater the horizontal force. That same 2 feet from the wall with 8 feet of rope out would have 1/2 the force. I'm glad I finally figured that out, I can't remember hearing that before.
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