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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 1:42 AM
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jt512
When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP!
www.8anu.com
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 1:52 AM
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fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anu.com
I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up.
Josh
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 1:59 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: [ I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up. Josh
Yeah, because no one lies on the internet 
Most of the reason I don't bother with any kind of profile mess on here is twofold:
1) I'm too lazy.
2) I don't need the internet to validate my "sick skilzz".
People who actually climb with me know the deal, and people who draw conclusions from rc.n00b...well, they get what's comin' to 'em. It would be a cold day in hell before I treated this forum as something other than a place to watch for accident reports and product recalls.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 2:00 AM)
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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 2:06 AM
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well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
(This post was edited by fyj434 on May 16, 2008, 2:08 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 2:37 AM
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ja1484 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: [ I know people who can climb 12's and 13's who can't belay worth shit. The two have nothing to do with each other. And btw, if you are going to talk shit then you might want to have a profile to back it up. Josh Yeah, because no one lies on the internet Most of the reason I don't bother with any kind of profile mess on here is twofold: 1) I'm too lazy. 2) I don't need the internet to validate my "sick skilzz". People who actually climb with me know the deal, and people who draw conclusions from rc.n00b...well, they get what's comin' to 'em. It would be a cold day in hell before I treated this forum as something other than a place to watch for accident reports and product recalls.
You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice.
Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot.
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stymingersfink
May 16, 2008, 2:44 AM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
Oh, and might I respectfully suggest you start attending your classes at school? Pay special attention while in your English class. Majid makes better posts than you do.
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kriso9tails
May 16, 2008, 2:59 AM
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fyj434 wrote: jt512 When you start climbing seven days a week and can onsight harder than 11a then you can talk to me about belaying but until then. take from someone who knows how to climb...SHUT THE HELL UP! www.8anu.com
Seven days a week? That's bad for your health. I started onsighting 11a and harder nine years ago or so when I was sixteen, and back then I used to do stretches of climbing five to eight consecutive days even though I knew it was a bad idea, but I guess that means you're graciously allowing me to speak... how kind of you.
So now that it's my turn to speak, is this how you play the game: Until you learn how to post a fucking link, take it from someone who isn't a retard... SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
I like this game, but sadly based on my post, I don't think you'll be allowed to post again. 'Tis a shame.
(oh, and with a little sincerity, trolling is what it is 'n all, but I've seen one person break their ankle and another sprain in severely because someone took while the climber was above the bolt, so if you're going to post 'joke' advice, try not to make it something that's going to get some beginner or their climbing partner injured.)
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 3:22 AM
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fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope.
Jay
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coastal_climber
May 16, 2008, 3:29 AM
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jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend. You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope. Jay
fyj434 = OWNED
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Perfecto
May 16, 2008, 6:05 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh
I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer.
Also, when you "soft catch" someone, are you letting the rope slip through your hand then tightening the grip, or just holding the rope 2 feet from the device and bringing the hand closer, feeding that 2 feet through to soften the fall?
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 7:05 AM
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Perfecto wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer.
When you're that high on an overhanging route there is no risk from making the fall a little longer. All the risk comes from the force with which the climber swings into the wall. Even on a factor-.2 fall, if the belayer just locks off, the climber can swing hard into the wall. The point of the dynamic catch is that it reduces the swing into the wall; therefore, it actually lessens the risk of the fall.
Jay
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curt
May 16, 2008, 7:46 AM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush...
Huh, I figured it was because you mistyped retards.com.
Curt
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:01 PM
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fyj434 wrote: well if you pay any attion. I am only on this pice of shit cause I am bored. Look at the 8a web sit i posted and you will see that i got the score card to back it up dush. And belaying and climbing share alot of the same things... But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend.
I'm sorry, but if you lack the intelligence for a coherent sentence in English, I am *never* going to believe any claim you make about belaying prowess for two reasons.
First, I'm not entirely sure you're even talking about belaying. Second, learning your way around nouns and verbs is far easier than correctly belaying a leader.
Have fun being a "rock wall supervisor"!
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 12:02 PM)
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:05 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice. Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot.
Yeah, in this instance I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I still don't need the profile - I don't care how hard someone climbs if they act like that.
As for JT, he ain't that bad. He's just cranky when he should be, because the tendency around here is to fire out a question or start an oblique discussion on something that the OP could've found out for themselves (easily) with the resources available and a little reading.
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blueeyedclimber
May 16, 2008, 12:26 PM
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ja1484 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: You do have a point. But, when the only other way to judge you is by your incoherent babble and attacks on JT, then you leave me no choice. Believe me, I am not one to defend him, but when you advise someone jumping up when belaying on slab, you make yourself sound like an idiot. Yeah, in this instance I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I still don't need the profile - I don't care how hard someone climbs if they act like that. As for JT, he ain't that bad. He's just cranky when he should be, because the tendency around here is to fire out a question or start an oblique discussion on something that the OP could've found out for themselves (easily) with the resources available and a little reading.
I think I thought I was replying to fyj434 when I wrote that. It wasn't directed at you. I never even looked at who wrote it. ooopps!
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dondada
May 16, 2008, 12:31 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: But I dont give a shit what you have to say cause I stand by what I say... and trust me I am the one climbing the 13 and you are the 12 my poor sorry ass friend. You can stand wherever you want, because you won't be holding my rope. Jay fyj434 = OWNED
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phillygoat
May 16, 2008, 2:36 PM
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Perfecto wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh I think my point is, with 40 feet of rope catching an 8 foot fall(So factor .2 here) why is there any need to soften the fall any further, aren't you simply adding additional risk by trying to put some give in the system as a belayer. Also, when you "soft catch" someone, are you letting the rope slip through your hand then tightening the grip, or just holding the rope 2 feet from the device and bringing the hand closer, feeding that 2 feet through to soften the fall?
If this took place at French's Dome a couple of years ago, then I'm the guy that snapped at you because you gave that poor gal you were climbing with the worst catch I'd ever seen! I had watched her take a series of short falls while still below the highest clipped bolt. You were belaying her while anchored in with something like 20ft of webbing to a distant tree, which put you about 10-15ft back from the wall. Her short falls took all of the slack out of the system until, when she finally climbed above the high bolt, the entire rope/anchor webbing combo was taut.
In hindsight, I should have intervened on her behalf, because anyone except you two could see what was going to happen next- she fell while you hunkered back on an already tight rope, wrenching her painfully backwards and slamming her into the wall. Sorry to be harsh, but if you still don't know why some dude yelled at you a couple of years ago, you shouldn't be belaying. Despite your helmets and anchors, you were the most dangerous folks at that little sport crag that day.
I don't like the fact that I yelled at you, but -jesus- was it nerve-wracking to watch. I guess I just couldn't take it anymore. It was a crowded day and you two were freaking everyone out. So... if this was you- sorry for yelling, but c'mon- let's get with the program. If it wasn't you- well, I hope you enjoyed my little story about the "worst catch I'd ever seen!"
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Perfecto
May 17, 2008, 12:33 AM
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I think it might have been me, on the 5.10b/c. I wish you had offered at the time to explain how I should have been belaying. Yelling did nothing constructive, I wasn't that pissed at you though, you probably didn't realize the fall was so awkward because of the way her quickdraw was clipped. Had that not been the case, she simply would have had a short fall with an abrupt stop, no twisted around or hitting the wall.
I was belaying her tight because she wanted me to, I would have been comfortable with a looser belay. I don't believe at the time she fell that her weight had tensioned the system, as she had led several feet above the last bolt, I just took all the slack out because she knew she was going to fall and wanted me to(I know from years of climbing together).
I still am having a hard time understanding how any of this was dangerous. My actions as a belayer were to minimizing the distance of her fall, partly because that's how she climbs. This was a bolted route, and any increase force on the gear was negligible, factor .2 fall right? The awkwardness/hitting the wall was from the bad quickdraw clip. At no time was she in any danger of falling. She really wasn't injured at all, just mentally tired(doesn't do many lead falls).
Please respond with some helpful comments about why short falls are bad, and that "soft catch" technique that I still don't have an answer to, other than don't pre-tension the belay anchor. I do take issue with your statement we were dangerous. At no time was anyone in danger of hitting the ground, and helmets were worn for a reason. It may not have been perfect, but it was far from improper belay technique.
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dutyje
May 17, 2008, 12:50 AM
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fyj434 -
I've stayed entirely out of this thread so far.. but "jump if the leader is on slab"???!!?
If my belayer had jumped when I took the fall at Stone Mountain, I'd have decked. In fact, if he hadn't gone running into the woods pulling in all the slack he had, I still probably would have decked. Instead, I managed to only take the most painful, palm-shredding, clothes-tearing, raspberry-making nasty-assed 20-foot shredder I could possibly imagine.
Frankly, I've seen enough of Jay on this site to know I'd trust him to catch my falls under any circumstances. Of course, I'd never climb with him in the first place, but that's mostly because we'd likely be interested in tackling very different terrain, of very different grade.
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phillygoat
May 17, 2008, 3:13 AM
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Perfecto wrote: I think it might have been me, on the 5.10b/c. I wish you had offered at the time to explain how I should have been belaying. Yelling did nothing constructive, I wasn't that pissed at you though, you probably didn't realize the fall was so awkward because of the way her quickdraw was clipped. Had that not been the case, she simply would have had a short fall with an abrupt stop, no twisted around or hitting the wall. I was belaying her tight because she wanted me to, I would have been comfortable with a looser belay. I don't believe at the time she fell that her weight had tensioned the system, as she had led several feet above the last bolt, I just took all the slack out because she knew she was going to fall and wanted me to(I know from years of climbing together). I still am having a hard time understanding how any of this was dangerous. My actions as a belayer were to minimizing the distance of her fall, partly because that's how she climbs. This was a bolted route, and any increase force on the gear was negligible, factor .2 fall right? The awkwardness/hitting the wall was from the bad quickdraw clip. At no time was she in any danger of falling. She really wasn't injured at all, just mentally tired(doesn't do many lead falls). Please respond with some helpful comments about why short falls are bad, and that "soft catch" technique that I still don't have an answer to, other than don't pre-tension the belay anchor. I do take issue with your statement we were dangerous. At no time was anyone in danger of hitting the ground, and helmets were worn for a reason. It may not have been perfect, but it was far from improper belay technique.
Ok... where to begin....
It's not my responsibility to teach you, and frankly, I'm surprised that you've been climbing for years and fail to understand why you were indeed dangerous.
That catch couldn't have been harder had she tied directly into the bolt with some webbing, climbed above it, and dropped- I'm amazed she didn't rupture her kidneys or break her back. You obviously seem to think that a shorter fall is always safer and that the fact you kept the climber off the deck means that you're doing your job.
I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but you need to start from the beginning. While it's great that you can compute fall factors, wear helmets and tie water knots, you somehow missed some real world experience watching and learning. I mean, haven't you noticed at Smith how casually some climbers fall, and how soft the catch is?!
I'm not trying to assuage my ego by pretending to be the expert- I'm simply trying to let you know that I've never seen such a bad catch in my thousands of days climbing. You need to recognize that keeping your leader "safe" means much more than locking off the rope. I'd recommend holding off on belaying a lead climber until you understand more about it. To learn this stuff well takes more than internet research.
Just last year the boyfriend of my wife's friend was in the exact same spot as you were- same route and everything. Complete deja vu- as she says she's about to fall, her boyfriend takes in slack, pulling her down. I didn't know him well, but told him to ease up and continued to instruct him while he gave her a perfect catch.
Good luck, and if I see you out there this summer i'd be happy to show you some falls and soft catches. I'm quite good at falling.
(This post was edited by phillygoat on May 17, 2008, 4:46 PM)
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Perfecto
May 17, 2008, 5:09 AM
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Just searching for more info on the subject, came across a relevant passage from How to Rock Climb by John Long 3rd edition
Page 111
The Belay
When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected
from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if
not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack
between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him
around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands,
resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station
yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the
fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the
flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben
Page 95 Belaying the Leader
Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take
your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay
anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; …
So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
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stymingersfink
May 17, 2008, 6:08 AM
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Perfecto wrote: Just searching for more info on the subject, came across a relevant passage from How to Rock Climb by John Long 3rd edition Page 111 The Belay When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands, resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber. &&&&&&&&&&&&& Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben Page 95 Belaying the Leader Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; … So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
There are many different circumstances where prioviding the leader with the shortest fall is not the best course of action. Regardless, the best course of action is the one which will result in the safest catch for the leader.
The problem with this is, it relies on one building enough experience to anticipate the correct reaction to various situations, and n00b-ish leaders today would seem to trust any belayer fresh outta the box. This misplaced trust may eventually expose them to falls far more dangerous than necessary. The problem is, the inexperienced leader just doesn't know better.
I may not be physically able to climb 5.12+, but you'd better damn well believe that I can safely belay a leader attempting to send one. This is something that comes with experience, and an ability to anticipate the proper reaction before it becomes necessary to become action.
Until you have come to grips with the challenge of anticipating the proper reaction, I hope you's leader doesn't get damaged due to your own mistakes.
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uni_jim
May 19, 2008, 3:41 AM
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Perfecto wrote: blah blah blah... Page 111 The Belay When you start a climb, remember to make sure the site is safe and if at all possible protected from rock fall, dropped gear, falling climber, etc. Ideally, the belayer should be located close to, if not right at the base of the rock; and always tied taut to the belay anchor. If there is any slack between the belayer and anchor, a long fall can jerk the belayer off his feet and thrash him around until he comes taut to the anchor. The rope meanwhile can be ripped from his hands, resulting in disaster. Every fall generates force in one direction - direction of pull. Always station yourself in a direct line between the direction of pull and the anchor. If you don't the force of the fall may drag you there anyway, and you might forfeit the belay - and the leaders life - during the flight. Remember ABC: Anchor - Belayer - Climber. &&&&&&&&&&&&& - unnecesary use of "&" Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben Page 95 Belaying the Leader Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull; … So I guess there are differing opinions out there.
yeah, so all you did to help was tell me that mr. John Long thinks i should anchor. I said in my first post to "assume i am unanchored" when giving answers to my questions, not "uh, i tink i shud ankor. wat u gyes tink?" If i were to have asked the later, i would have recieved an avalanch of "always do this, never do that, and absolutes are absolutely not allowed in the hills." along with links to other threads (which i have already read) where other new leaders have asked the dreaded anchoring question.
wow, now that i am done blowing off your utterly unhelpful post, i will regurgitate what i have been told on this thread, thought about, and decided it makes sense.
dynamic belay
-better to let atc slip a bit. do this when there is
more friction in the system from draws (winding
routs etc.)
- easier/safer (less risk of dropping) to lock off
leaders fall and be lifted. not to be done when
belayer can be pulled into hazards.
stance
-two feet to side of first bolt until second or third
draws are cliped. directly beneath after that.
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uni_jim
May 19, 2008, 3:49 AM
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Vertical walls
-give a dynamic belay (when safe to do so) on
vertical walls
Slab
-minimize fall distance on slab by taking in slack
before and during the fall, or run for the trees.
Falls from high
-no need to pull in all the slack, just try to give
the shortest comfortable fall. soft catch when
safe.
Falls from low
-take in slack, give a soft catch when safe to do
so.
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Perfecto
May 19, 2008, 4:35 AM
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Sorry for hijacking your thread, my post wasn't directed at you, just one particular situation where I was anchored.
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