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uni_jim
May 8, 2008, 3:33 AM
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Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC. 1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me. after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning? if not could you please explain why your way is better? 2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why? 3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why? 4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall? I appreciate any advice you give, but please dont call me troll or tell me to take a lesson.
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coastal_climber
May 8, 2008, 4:01 AM
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1) Yes, as long as there isn't too much rope in the system that the climber has a posibility of decking. 2) Depends how far they are up the route, the farther they are, the more rope out already, therefore less need to give a dynamic belay. 3) 5 feet is plenty, just lock off and go for the ride, if there even is one. 4) Unless the leader is in danger of decking or hitting a ledge/obstruction, there is no need. >Cam
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stymingersfink
May 8, 2008, 4:25 AM
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uni_jim wrote: Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC. 1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me. after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning? if not could you please explain why your way is better? 2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why? 3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why? 4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall? I appreciate any advice you give, but please dont call me troll or tell me to take a lesson. depends. are you at the crag, or in the gym? OTOH, maybe Jay could get you trained up right proper like.
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jt512
May 8, 2008, 5:22 AM
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uni_jim wrote: Hi, i have been climbing for a year and a bit on toprope, and have recently started leading. I understand all of the climbing aspects, but have a few questions about belaying for the leader. I have belayed for a leader before, but it was on a way overhung rout with nothing to hit, so i would just lock off in a fall and get lifted a little bit .For these, lets just assume that i am unanchored, and using an ATC. 1) I have been standing next to the wall, about five feet to the side of the first draw while the climber is between the first and second draws so that if he were to fall, he would not land on me. 5 feet to the side is too far. Try 2 feet. You want to be just far enough to the side so that the climber won't fall on top of you. If your partner outweighs you, a couple of feet can be the difference between him decking and not.
In reply to: ...after the second draw, i would then move to directly under the first, and continue to belay from there throughout the climb. Is this the correct possitioning? It depends. On many routes, the climber can still deck while clipping the third bolt, so you still don't want to be directly under him. Additionally, as the climber ascends and clips additional pro, the friction in the system increases, and so the force on the belayer will be reduced if the climber falls. Therefore, the belayer can stand further back from the wall. The advantages of this are twofold: one, the belayer will be able to see climber better; and, two, the belayer will be able to effect a dynamic belay merely by allowing himself to get pulled forward a step or two if the climber falls.
In reply to: 2) to give a soft catch, is it better to let your partner's fall lift you, or let the rope slip a bit? why? In principle, letting rope slide through the ATC is superior, because it gives the belayer more control, and can be used on multipitch climbs, when the belayer is anchored. A jump is a jump, but with practice you can let as little or as much rope slide through the device as the particular fall dictates.
In reply to: 3) on a flat vertical wall with your partner maby 5 feet above the third draw, is it better to lock and sit, or give a dynamic catch? why? Why you would ask such a question had me baffled initially, but I think I see where you are coming from now. When a climber falls from a vertical route, he usually does not fall straight down; rather, he falls away from the wall and arcs back in. That should answer your question. In case it doesn't, usually this situation would call for a dynamic belay; but not always. You still have to have situational awareness (to borrow a phrase from the aviation community).
In reply to: 4) in the same situation as #3 should you pull up all the slack you can when you hear "falling" or just be ready for the fall? First of all, why do you have slack to pull up in the first place!? The amount of slack you have in the rope should mainly be determined by the fall you anticipate, so usually no adjustment of slack should be necessary. However, in the real world, you might find yourself occasionally with too much slack out, in which case, pull it in; but not so much so that you put the climber on tension. That will swing him into the wall. Additionally, with practice, when your climber peels, you can initially take in slack, and then, if he's safely off the ground let it out again by dynamically belaying. If the climber falls, say, below the third bolt, and you're not sure whether you can safely dynamically belay, or not. If you're quick, you can drop into a squatting position as he peels, and then as the rope just begins to come tight, make a quick decision, depending on how close to the ground he is, whether to stay crouched and minimize the fall distance, or stand up to give a dynamic belay. I guess this is "advanced" belaying, but I assure that with experience you can do it. I do it all the time, and I doubt that my reflexes are out of the ordinary. Jay
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hafilax
May 8, 2008, 4:34 PM
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The only thing I would add is that when belaying a leader through a roof make sure that they won't swing and hit their head on the lip. Leave some extra slack so that they will fall clear of it. I learned the importance of dynamic belays watching my buddy sprain his ankle from slamming into the wall after a hard catch.
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uni_jim
May 8, 2008, 5:48 PM
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Thanks for the help everyone. I had all ready read the threads you linked to, but there was not a lot there that seemed to help me. I will be both outdoors and indoors. another question. When i go for my lead test indoors, they will be watching for an "appropriate ammount of slack." I hear people saying that gyms are of the mind that the shorter the fall the better, so on their four draw test wall, should i be keeping just a small loop of rope in front of my device? (there is nothing to hit)
(This post was edited by uni_jim on May 8, 2008, 5:50 PM)
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2008, 6:38 PM
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uni_jim wrote: another question. When i go for my lead test indoors, they will be watching for an "appropriate ammount of slack." I hear people saying that gyms are of the mind that the shorter the fall the better, so on their four draw test wall, should i be keeping just a small loop of rope in front of my device? (there is nothing to hit) I think there are a lot of different opinions on this. I belay some people who want a fair amount of slack in the system so that they don't ever feel rope drag. This is different from them wanting a longer fall, so be aware of this request. I typically give out enough slack to allow the person to clip, I then pull in as if they are on top rope until they get above the clip. At which point, I allow their harness to pull the rope up above the clip as they go upward. I try very hard to anticipate two things: the potential for rope drag and the potential for an unexpected clip (i.e. - they clip from a position I wouldn't have thought they would have clipped from). I try to adjust and leave a bit more slack in the system so that the climber doesn't feel as if they are ever being short-roped, but not so much that they don't have a huge, unessesary fall if they peel. For me, I try to play a game where i give out as little rope as I need to without affecting the climber's clipping or moving discretion (i.e. - if they don't feel it, they're probably OK), but always make sure that I either feed or jump to give a soft catch. Of course, as someone noted above, you'll want a bit more rope out when the climber is above a roof. Good luck.
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pentapitch
May 10, 2008, 6:22 PM
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one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms). assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader. if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps. this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader.
(This post was edited by pentapitch on May 10, 2008, 6:23 PM)
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jt512
May 10, 2008, 6:28 PM
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pentapitch wrote: one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms). assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader. if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps. this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader. Try that technique at the second bolt, as you suggest, and eventually you're going to drop your partner. Learn to use your belay device properly, so you can stand still and belay from whatever the optimal position might be. Jay
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pentapitch
May 10, 2008, 10:34 PM
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why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people.
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crackrn
May 10, 2008, 11:58 PM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. I thought he gave the OP plenty of good information to work with. Additionally, his post to you was rather benign all things considered.
(This post was edited by crackrn on May 10, 2008, 11:59 PM)
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pentapitch
May 11, 2008, 12:26 AM
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yea, cause over the past 12 years on 5 continents I've dropped hundreds of lead climbers. the lawsuits are killing me.
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stymingersfink
May 11, 2008, 3:52 AM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs this outta be good.
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uni_jim
May 12, 2008, 9:43 PM
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pentapitch wrote: one thing you can do when belaying a lead climber is use your legs (which are stronger than arms). assume your leader has two bolts/pieces in and is still relatively close to the ground, instead of continually feeding or taking in small lengths of rope, walk forward or back a couple steps to give the correct amount of rope to the leader. if he is moving past the second bolt, move into the wall one step. as he continues, give a little bit with your hands, and then step back one or two steps. this will keep you from, maybe, frantically trying to give or take slack only with your arms when the leader is struggling, and especially with a gri gri, your hands can't always be fast enough try this 'technique' in increments and you will get smoother and better at keeping up with the leader. wouldn't moving away from the wall make a fall pull me toward the rock, thus increasing the fall distance? Isn't that why you are supposed to belay from below the first pice?
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blueeyedclimber
May 14, 2008, 6:52 PM
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pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. Jay may be a wanker, but he is usually spot on with his advice. Being a moving belayer is very useful, but not when the climber is close to the ground (like at the 2nd bolt). Josh
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shockabuku
May 14, 2008, 6:58 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs [image]http://www.popcornsupply.com/ProdImages/sm_clsdtopbox.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/1186.png[/image] this outta be good. Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay.
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Gmburns2000
May 14, 2008, 7:16 PM
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shockabuku wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs this outta be good. Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay. Do we keep the thread alive until he notices it? BTW - Josh and Jay got it right above. Edit: fixed the images so that they appeared
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on May 14, 2008, 7:19 PM)
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stymingersfink
May 14, 2008, 11:14 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: shockabuku wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pentapitch wrote: why are you such a wanker?? is it because you really dont know anything about climbing?? if you cant give beginners something positive to work on, why don't you just shut the f up?? to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. grabs this outta be good. Boy, that was really a let down, wasn't it? Not even a *PLONK* or anything. I'm a little disappointed in Jay. Do we keep the thread alive until he notices it? BTW - Josh and Jay got it right above. Edit: fixed the images so that they appeared get Firefox running, Greasemonkey add-on and Jay's script. You'll find a new button in the editor window, labeled "Post:Show Quoted Images". It will negate the need to edit to fix image tags. See?
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Perfecto
May 15, 2008, 3:23 AM
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I had an odd experience once when my climber fell in an awkward manner and some random guy who was watched yelled at me, saying I need to learn how to belay.(been doing it 15 years now). She had clipped a draw into the rope and a gear loop, so for the next bolt she would only have to remove the draw and clip the hangar. She fell before she could, and told me to catch her, so I moved to tension the anchor behind me and locked off. When she fell (bolt at her feet, short fall) the rope pulled on her gear loop and broke it, twisted her around she hit her shoulder. The route was a little overhung, no injuries but she lowered off. My question is, what was this guy meaning that I did wrong? I locked off so she would have the shortest fall, there was 40ft of rope out, plenty of dynamic stretch there.
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blueeyedclimber
May 15, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Perfecto wrote: I had an odd experience once when my climber fell in an awkward manner and some random guy who was watched yelled at me, saying I need to learn how to belay.(been doing it 15 years now). She had clipped a draw into the rope and a gear loop, so for the next bolt she would only have to remove the draw and clip the hangar. She fell before she could, and told me to catch her, so I moved to tension the anchor behind me and locked off. When she fell (bolt at her feet, short fall) the rope pulled on her gear loop and broke it, twisted her around she hit her shoulder. The route was a little overhung, no injuries but she lowered off. My question is, what was this guy meaning that I did wrong? I locked off so she would have the shortest fall, there was 40ft of rope out, plenty of dynamic stretch there. The shortest fall isn't always the best. It was on overhanging terrain which suggests to me that a softer catch is more appropriate. As far as her falling awkwardly, it sounds to me like it was a direct result of her unusual clipping technique. It spun her around and broke her gear loop. I hope she learned her lesson. If she is 40 feet up and a bolt at her feet, there is no reason not to give her a soft catch (unless there is something under her, like a ledge or a tree). Josh
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fyj434
May 16, 2008, 12:09 AM
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... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... so if you have any more ? fill free to ask... and do what I said before lose the atc and get a grigri. I can tell you how to use that later. It is the best investment you will ever make in you climbing life.
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 12:28 AM
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fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice.
In reply to: and do what I said before lose the atc and get a grigri. I can tell you how to use that later. I can't wait to hear your advice on that. Jay
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ja1484
May 16, 2008, 12:35 AM
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pentapitch wrote: to the OP, ignore anything this jt512 idiot says. his only purpose on this site is to make derogatory comments to other people. Actually, he's sort of an institution around here, and I wouldn't consider him an abnormally large wanker in any respect. That said, grab some Vaseline. You're gonna need it.
stymingersfink wrote: grabs
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 16, 2008, 12:40 AM)
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kriso9tails
May 16, 2008, 1:17 AM
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jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice. I think it's solid advice. I mean, you can't die climbing if you don't climb and you can't climb if your ankles are broken, so naturally the best way to protect your climber's life is to belay as described above.
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jt512
May 16, 2008, 1:27 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: jt512 wrote: fyj434 wrote: ... ok here is the deal... Belaying is something that is learned over time... But the number one thing you need to do if you are sport climbing is drop the atc and get a grigri.. Best thing known to man... here is how I belay... one stand out of the way of the climber on the first few bolts... after move under the first... To answer your second ? never feed out rope for a softer fall... thats how people deck... All you need to do is give a little hop... ( note if you are 20- 30 lbs liter than the climber... don't jump let their wate pull you... ONLY jump if they are on slab and when I say jump give a hop... no need to lower your partner further than they need to be) Now if your climber is 5 feet above the 3 bolt and they say "take" than all you do is sit. don't jump dont give out slack. ...I have dont thousands of project belays and have learned from the best... Really? Because the sentences I bolded are terrible advice. I think it's solid advice. I mean, you can't die climbing if you don't climb and you can't climb if your ankles are broken, so naturally the best way to protect your climber's life is to belay as described above. Just be sure to break both ankles. This is what happens when the belayer only does half the job: Jay
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