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jdefazio
Oct 13, 2008, 7:27 PM
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Cross-post into Regional from I&A: ------------------------------------------------------ http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=109574 Details are sketchy, but according to friends who were on-scene, the climber rappelled off the end of his rope. Apparently he suffered head injuries and was having difficulty breathing, but was lucid. Does anyone know this young man's condition? My best wishes for a full and speedy recovery. ------------------------------------------------------ edited for spelling
(This post was edited by jdefazio on Oct 15, 2008, 12:22 PM)
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adatesman
Oct 13, 2008, 7:58 PM
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First, I hope the climber is ok. I'd be curious about details, as Birdsboro certainly isn't the sort of place where one can easily rap off the end of their rope, unless they were over on the new stuff on the other side of the quarry. Second, what's with the sudden spate of accidents around here? In the past week there's been deaths at both the Gunks and Seneca and now another injury? Must be the lunar cycle or something....
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jdefazio
Oct 13, 2008, 8:19 PM
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adatesman wrote: First, I hope the climber is ok. I'd be curious about details, as Birdsboro certainly isn't the sort of place where one can easily rap off the end of their rope, unless they were over on the new stuff on the other side of the quarry. Agreed. I sincerely hope the guy is OK. This incident occured in the one of the main areas, so I'm puzzled how this could occur, i.e. on short single-pitch routes within clear sight of the ground and, hence, the ends of one's rope.
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la_rouche
Oct 13, 2008, 8:32 PM
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Hope the guy is OK. My first thought, too, was that it could have happened on the "giant wall" since there really aren't many long rappells there. Unfortunately, this could be another example of why you should always tie your knots.
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mojomonkey
Oct 13, 2008, 9:33 PM
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Perhaps it was an error cleaning a route, and they were never actually on rappel? Hope the guy ends up OK.
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jdefazio
Oct 14, 2008, 12:03 AM
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I'm told (by secondhand account from those on the scene after the accident, so I'm are certainly speculating here) that he had been taken off belay to clean the anchors, and had already rapped some distance prior to falling. I can only assume, then, that it was not a case of miscommunication between the two partners in terms of "lower me" vs. "I'm rappelling".
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GeneralZon
Oct 14, 2008, 7:00 PM
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I am very good friends (and climbing partner) with the climber that got injured. He is a very competent climber who is by no means new to the sport. Since I was not climbing with him at the time of his injury, I don't feel that it is my place to recount the event. I will let him or his climbing partner at the time fill in the details on how the accident occurred when they are ready. I can however report that he is in stable/good condition with a few minor injuries (considering decking from 15-20'); broken ribs, dislocated finger, and lacerations to his head requiring a few staples. When I talk to him next I will ask if it is good for me to fill in the details for everyone. For now, lets just say that there were multiple human (not equipment) that caused the event.
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jdefazio
Oct 14, 2008, 7:12 PM
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Very glad to hear that. Please relay to him the best wishes of everyone in here. OT, but what is with doctors using staples instead of stiches? I, too, had about 12 put in my head a few years ago: "chk chk chk - there you go, that'll be 800 dollars please". Is that the skill level they teach to in med school these days? Leaves one hell of a train track scar as well.
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arthurdeko
Oct 15, 2008, 4:18 AM
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I was the climber who decked this weekend. Thank you, everyone, for your concern. More importantly, thank you to everyone at the crag who came to my assistance. The account of my injuries in the previous post is accurate(3 broken rips, dislocated finger, scrape on head). I was discharged from the hospital this afternoon and I should recover fully within a few weeks. To clear up any rumors. I was cleaning the route immediately to the left of Zorro. I'd removed our gear from the bolts at the top of the climb and had pulled some rope through the bolts before going on rappel. But I was distracted for a moment, stopped feeding the rope, and started rappelling, forgetting that I'd only fed about 10-15 feet of rope. About half way down the wall, I felt the rope start to run very quickly through the ATC. Before I could react, I was on the ground gasping for breath wondering how my finger got bent like a "Z". The newspaper must have assumed that I'd fallen from the top of the climb as it was about 30 feet high. If I'd fallen from that far and landed the way I did, I wouldn't be writing this. The distance was more like 10-15 feet. Aside from the technical errors of not feeding enough rope to reach the bottom of the cliff and not tying a knot in the end of the rope, the more noteworthy error was the fact that both my belayer and myself neglected to work as a team. For a number of reasons we'd become complacent and were thinking more about packing up and leaving than safely cleaning the climb. However, as the ER doctor applied 4 staples to my scalp without any sort of anaesthesia, he drove home the idea that under no circumstances should expediency take precedence over safety. In addition, I don't blame my belayer for allowing me to rappel without enough rope. I'm sure that he thought I knew what I was doing and didn't expect me to make such an obvious mistake so he just started packing up to go. I'd made that assumption, too. Unfortunately, we all make mistakes, particularly when we're tired(and rock climbing tends to have that effect). My belayer and I have had a chance to talk about this experience and we both agree that belaying for someone means that you are protecting the climber even when they are "off belay" and the climb isn't over until everyone is safe on the ground. Also, climbers should be double checking the belayer as well. Catching a fall doesn't necessarily require a belay device, sometimes it means catching a mistake that would result in a fall and making sure that your partner corrects the mistake. Anyway, I hope my accident can serve as a learning opportunity for others. I've certainly learned my lesson, but holy shnikeys, it hurt a lot!
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majid_sabet
Oct 15, 2008, 4:47 AM
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was this a double rope rap via ATC and one side came out 15 feet short? [URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 15, 2008, 4:58 AM)
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arthurdeko
Oct 15, 2008, 3:38 PM
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Yep, that's the idea.
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GeneralZon
Oct 15, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Minus the Bonsai anchor.
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altelis
Oct 15, 2008, 4:32 PM
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TOTAL OFF TOPIC RANT:
jdefazio wrote: OT, but what is with doctors using staples instead of stiches? I, too, had about 12 put in my head a few years ago: "chk chk chk - there you go, that'll be 800 dollars please". Is that the skill level they teach to in med school these days? Leaves one hell of a train track scar as well. glad ignorance runs rampant. i suppose, yes, staples could be a clue as to a lazy physician but so is not asking questions staples, sutures, and adhesives aren't simply equivalent methods for closing wounds. they all have their own pros and minuses. things to consider: type of wound (jagged not good for staples, long better for staples), location of wound (is constant articulation a problem?), amount of swelling expected (knees SWELL versus some other areas of the body) WELL placed staples a) should leave no worse or better scarring than sutures, b) take a LOT of skill to place sure, from the outside it may look like suturing is a terribly complicated art (though as a climber you'd probably find it quite easy compared to a lot of docs-in-training) and stapling is a mindless pulling of a trigger. however, placing staples WELL in a way to promote quick wound healing is just as much an art as suturing. (maybe not QUITE- but definitely closer to suturing than getting 10 pages of paper to stay together). staples ARE more expensive than suturing- but you are paying for the benefits (holds up to swelling well, less prone to infection both due to shallow placement compared to sutures and intrinsic aspect of the material....) if you are so worried about these things why didn't you ask your health care provider- take a little self responsibility. sure, if its a true emergency situation you probably can't discuss before hand. but why not ask your physician after the fact WHY they made choice they did if you were so bothered. i've been in plenty "urgent care" situations (as an emt) where the patient and physician were able to DISCUSS the pros and cons of a certain procedure and voiced their preference. the patient preference wasn't always able to be followed (due solely to the pressing MEDICAL facts) but they were at least voiced.
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jdefazio
Oct 15, 2008, 5:22 PM
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altelis wrote: TOTAL OFF TOPIC RANT: jdefazio wrote: OT, but what is with doctors using staples instead of stiches? I, too, had about 12 put in my head a few years ago: "chk chk chk - there you go, that'll be 800 dollars please". Is that the skill level they teach to in med school these days? Leaves one hell of a train track scar as well. glad ignorance runs rampant. ..rant rant rant.. Oh jesustittiefuckingchrist. What, do we have to put disclaimers on sarcasm now? Especially being off topic and after we know the climber is OK. Relax.
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1959
Oct 15, 2008, 5:56 PM
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The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb
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GeneralZon
Oct 15, 2008, 6:17 PM
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1959 wrote: The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb You sir, are very much misinformed. Get the facts straight and then talk your trash. Read the previous posts and get a clue. Nice first post. If you want to have this discussion in person, PM me I will be more than happy to learn you.
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shockabuku
Oct 15, 2008, 6:30 PM
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arthurdeko wrote: However, as the ER doctor applied 4 staples to my scalp without any sort of anaesthesia, he drove home the idea that under no circumstances should expediency take precedence over safety. Thanks for the new sig. Hope you heal well.
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jdefazio
Oct 15, 2008, 6:36 PM
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shockabuku wrote: arthurdeko wrote: However, as the ER doctor applied 4 staples to my scalp without any sort of anaesthesia, he drove home the idea that under no circumstances should expediency take precedence over safety. Thanks for the new sig. Hope you heal well. Literally!
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knieveltech
Oct 15, 2008, 6:52 PM
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1959 wrote: The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb It's instructive to note that someone created a troll account specifically to post this. Gotta love the random anonymous cowards out there.
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crimpandgo
Oct 15, 2008, 6:53 PM
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1959 wrote: The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb Feeling like a Richard today??
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1959
Oct 15, 2008, 7:40 PM
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REALITY CHECK This week East Coast.... Died....guy fell off 5.3 at the Gunks NY Died....49 yr old female Doctor blew #4BD micronut and decked 30' up a totally protectable 5.9G at Seneca WV Died....24 yr old young woman unanchored on a 100% safe ridge walk near Seneca WV Decked....guy rapped off the end of his rope on a 30' line at Birdsboro Wake up....we are not talking about slipping on the sidewalk. If you are offended by the truth, not the facts, the truth....gravity is NOT your FRIEND....then stay on the couch and watch sports. And to those who think name calling is rational discussion....grow up a little. Look friends....climbing is inherently dangerous. Access to crags is a privilege. Injury and death are no-joke, and adverse publicity about our beloved activity results in crag closures. Being responsible is not just about self. We are a community, what one foolish person does affects us all. Let's not sugar coat the truth, you DO have a responsibility to the community. Yes I am new to this forum...whoop-de-do
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wormly81
Oct 15, 2008, 8:07 PM
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1959 wrote: REALITY CHECK This week East Coast.... Died....guy fell off 5.3 at the Gunks NY Died....49 yr old female Doctor blew #4BD micronut and decked 30' up a totally protectable 5.9G at Seneca WV Died....24 yr old young woman unanchored on a 100% safe ridge walk near Seneca WV Decked....guy rapped off the end of his rope on a 30' line at Birdsboro Wake up....we are not talking about slipping on the sidewalk. If you are offended by the truth, not the facts, the truth....gravity is NOT your FRIEND....then stay on the couch and watch sports. And to those who think name calling is rational discussion....grow up a little. Look friends....climbing is inherently dangerous. Access to crags is a privilege. Injury and death are no-joke, and adverse publicity about our beloved activity results in crag closures. Being responsible is not just about self. We are a community, what one foolish person does affects us all. Let's not sugar coat the truth, you DO have a responsibility to the community. Yes I am new to this forum...whoop-de-do Maybe not the most appropriate place for this... or sensitive choice of words concerning peoples lives that were lost... but your main point is spot on and you are right that there are a ton of people who have no respect for danger or the consequences of fucking up. Especially concerning is the ambivilence that certain people have for making minor mistakes. In climbing there are no minor mistakes; only major ones that you luckily survived. Oh and you must have missed the broken ankle in the dacks that led to a helicopter rescue and a 65 footer at the RRG (not really east coast). Bad bad bad.
(This post was edited by wormly81 on Oct 15, 2008, 8:16 PM)
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GeneralZon
Oct 15, 2008, 8:17 PM
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1959 wrote: The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb Here is a fact for you Internet tough guy... you are wrong, again. Fact is your earlier post was not correct and anybody that was at the quarry that day and saw the accident provided you with the wrong information. At least understand what is being discussed before you give your uninformed opinion. Anyway, after taking a fall from above your height, it is standard protocol to immobilize the victim and stabilize their spine. The jackass that thought he should suck it up and walk out was exactly that a JACKASS. May you be fortunate enough not to make any mistakes for the rest of your life and be accident free. As stated earlier if you want to have a 1:1 discussion on this, please feel free to PM me. If not STFU douche.
(This post was edited by GeneralZon on Oct 15, 2008, 8:25 PM)
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1959
Oct 15, 2008, 8:40 PM
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Dear GZ...OK you got me...as I said "I wasn't there," but that is hardly the point. Please forgive any inaccuracies in my sarcastic synopsis, as it was just that sarcasm. I apologize if my wit withers your masculinity, I certainly never intended that you should be personally affronted. This debacle made mention in my local paper. THAT IS THE POINT In Neanderthal times we disputed issues with grunts. A news-report ran to a paragraph of Oomphs and Urghs all of which were pretty much meaningless. Now we have speech and sentences and paragraphs and columnists and anchor-people. What they say effects us all. The image the media presents of us then trickles down into town hall meetings where decisions are made that may have adverse effects upon WE THE CLIMBERS. I see from your response that this concept is beyond the capabilities of your perception. Maybe you were born into the wrong period of evolution. Have a nice day :-)
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GeneralZon
Oct 15, 2008, 8:52 PM
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That is it, I was born at the wrong period of time. Har har har, or should I say der dee der der. Actually, I was personally affronted. The climber who got injured is my best friend and climbing partner. So hearing from uniformed voices like you is an affront. Your local paper, the Reading Eagle (which is hardly a decade out of the Neanderthal Times), did not report a single accuracy besides a climber getting injured from falling and the date. Masculinity has nothing to do with what I said. I will DISCUSS this with you privately if you have a problem. That is all I stated. And who are you "WE THE CLIMBERS"? That would be us too, minus the douche bag "I am better than you mentality" such as yourself. As stated earlier, I hope you fortunate enough to never make a mistake or have an accident.
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arthurdeko
Oct 15, 2008, 8:55 PM
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1959 wrote: The dude was on a less than 30' line....that's 30 feet to the anchors...MAX. He rapped off the end?!? of his line!?! Apparently he's fine, gashed his eye and cracked 2 ribs. Someone got spooked and called emergency services because he couldn't "walk" out to his car. I wasn't there but that's what I got. Analysis: Gym climbing hardman got sandbagged by rap maneuver....wept like a pre-schooler after seeing the drippy red stuff, the sobbing hurt, so he gasped for mommy to make it all better again. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: Light Sympathy: None Lesson: Some people ain't supposed to climb Analysis: Mother's basement dwelling hardman gets on internet forum...decided to run his mouth while hiding behind veil of anonymity. Result: FIASCO.... Empathy: None Sympathy: None Lesson: The purpose of a forum is to help educate a "community" on a particular topic. Flame wars and unsolicited criticism draw attention away from the real purpose of the forum leading to further lack of awareness. The purpose of a community is to support, educate and encourage members of that community. These activities help a community grow and keep people safe. Exclusion and elitist rants serve to divide communities and drive out members. Lesson #2: Karma's a bitch. Who will be around when you've made a mistake you never thought you would? Who will wipe you tears when you see the red spots on the ground and hear the gurgle in your lungs?
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crimpandgo
Oct 16, 2008, 3:27 AM
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1959 wrote: REALITY CHECK This week East Coast.... Died....guy fell off 5.3 at the Gunks NY Died....49 yr old female Doctor blew #4BD micronut and decked 30' up a totally protectable 5.9G at Seneca WV Died....24 yr old young woman unanchored on a 100% safe ridge walk near Seneca WV Decked....guy rapped off the end of his rope on a 30' line at Birdsboro Wake up....we are not talking about slipping on the sidewalk. If you are offended by the truth, not the facts, the truth....gravity is NOT your FRIEND....then stay on the couch and watch sports. And to those who think name calling is rational discussion....grow up a little. Look friends....climbing is inherently dangerous. Access to crags is a privilege. Injury and death are no-joke, and adverse publicity about our beloved activity results in crag closures. Being responsible is not just about self. We are a community, what one foolish person does affects us all. Let's not sugar coat the truth, you DO have a responsibility to the community. Yes I am new to this forum...whoop-de-do ok.. I will write it so you understand it. Your a dick... Better??
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adh24
Oct 16, 2008, 1:38 PM
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A little late on this but didn’t realize a thread had started already. I’m the climber’s partner from that day and would just like to thank those that helped out. My partner seemed to have covered all the details but doesn’t hurt to add my perspective. It was our third and last climb of the day. We previously had climbed High Stepping and Like a Slabby Virgin on the long slab section. We then decided to do a short cool down climb. Headed over to the Zorro section where we decided on climbing the unnamed 5.8 to finish off the day. A nice easy relaxing climb. I lead the route and was lowered and then my partner TR to finish off the day. After going off belay, once he reached the shuts, I began to gather up our gear in prep for the walk back to the car. As stated before this is where we both agreed the mistake occurred. Had I been more vigilant until my partner had been on the ground safely this accident would have been completely avoided. As my head was down digging in my pack (facing in the direction of the newly bolted route Jenga with my partner above me to my left) he landed without any prior signal of distress or warning directly to my left nearly falling on me. Now for those who are family with this section of Birdsboro you know how unforgiving the ground is (i.e. many large boulders, jagged in nature strewn about). My partner was lucky enough to avoid two of the larger rocks on the ground in area of his landing but not all. Not seeing what actually happened and not knowing from what height he had fallen from I had calmed him as much as once can as to prevent him from moving, as there was no knowledge to the extend of injury that was inflicted on his spine and neck (not to mention any internal damage). Once I had another party contact first responders I proceeded to dress the head wound. This brings me to another lessoned learned. First aid kits. I always threw mine in my pack thinking “when am I ever going to use this”. I’ll definitely never go any where without it. EMTS where very quick to respond and were on scene with in 10 minutes. So what can be taken away from this? Stay aware and stay in communication with your partner’s actions at all times whether they’re 100 feet up or 30 feet up. In sight or out of view. When learning a new skill and/or technique in climbing we all seem to go through a system of checks before confirming if the next action we perform will be safe. Regardless whether you have performed this task hundreds of times continue to perform those checks and analyses to safe guard pending actions. Don’t become complacent in what your are doing. As I just stated you are in harms way at 30 feet just as much as you are at 100 feet. As for the troll b*tching to walk it off and rub some mud on it, when YOU see a fellow climber hit the ground in the manner in which my partner did, not knowing the height of which he fell or the extend of the injuries I guarantee YOU would take all the necessary precautions that were taken in this situation. And if not my you choke on your 8 side dice while playing Dungeons and Dragons in your mom’s basement. If I’ve missed anything or something is unclear feel free to fire back any questions.
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lodi5onu
Oct 16, 2008, 1:58 PM
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Why did you only do 3 climbs?
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dynosore
Oct 16, 2008, 2:04 PM
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I don't know what's scarier....the fact that this happened, or the underlying tone of this thread that such mistakes are inevitable. These types of mistakes DO NOT happen to competent climbers, sorry. We all make mistakes, but not like this. A total disregard for safety. There are MULTIPLE errors here. Not looking down to see where the ends of your rope are(!), not tying a knot in the ends, AND no rappel backup? If I were you, I'd think long and hard about some of your habits, while you still can. This might be somewhat understandable if you were rapping off a 12 pitch climb in a thunderstorm, but a 30 foot crag? Geez.
(This post was edited by dynosore on Oct 16, 2008, 2:06 PM)
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Bagelo
Oct 16, 2008, 3:02 PM
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I completely agree with the previous post. This is a very unfortunate accident and I'm glad to hear the climber survived. I'm not sure how many times I've heard this before even on this site alone but PLEASE add knots to the ends of your rope and consider a back up belay when rapping people... I hope you have a speedy recovery!
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crimpandgo
Oct 16, 2008, 3:12 PM
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adh24 wrote: A little late on this but didn’t realize a thread had started already. I’m the climber’s partner from that day and would just like to thank those that helped out. My partner seemed to have covered all the details but doesn’t hurt to add my perspective. It was our third and last climb of the day. We previously had climbed High Stepping and Like a Slabby Virgin on the long slab section. We then decided to do a short cool down climb. Headed over to the Zorro section where we decided on climbing the unnamed 5.8 to finish off the day. A nice easy relaxing climb. I lead the route and was lowered and then my partner TR to finish off the day. After going off belay, once he reached the shuts, I began to gather up our gear in prep for the walk back to the car. As stated before this is where we both agreed the mistake occurred. Had I been more vigilant until my partner had been on the ground safely this accident would have been completely avoided. As my head was down digging in my pack (facing in the direction of the newly bolted route Jenga with my partner above me to my left) he landed without any prior signal of distress or warning directly to my left nearly falling on me. Now for those who are family with this section of Birdsboro you know how unforgiving the ground is (i.e. many large boulders, jagged in nature strewn about). My partner was lucky enough to avoid two of the larger rocks on the ground in area of his landing but not all. Not seeing what actually happened and not knowing from what height he had fallen from I had calmed him as much as once can as to prevent him from moving, as there was no knowledge to the extend of injury that was inflicted on his spine and neck (not to mention any internal damage). Once I had another party contact first responders I proceeded to dress the head wound. This brings me to another lessoned learned. First aid kits. I always threw mine in my pack thinking “when am I ever going to use this”. I’ll definitely never go any where without it. EMTS where very quick to respond and were on scene with in 10 minutes. So what can be taken away from this? Stay aware and stay in communication with your partner’s actions at all times whether they’re 100 feet up or 30 feet up. In sight or out of view. When learning a new skill and/or technique in climbing we all seem to go through a system of checks before confirming if the next action we perform will be safe. Regardless whether you have performed this task hundreds of times continue to perform those checks and analyses to safe guard pending actions. Don’t become complacent in what your are doing. As I just stated you are in harms way at 30 feet just as much as you are at 100 feet. As for the troll b*tching to walk it off and rub some mud on it, when YOU see a fellow climber hit the ground in the manner in which my partner did, not knowing the height of which he fell or the extend of the injuries I guarantee YOU would take all the necessary precautions that were taken in this situation. And if not my you choke on your 8 side dice while playing Dungeons and Dragons in your mom’s basement. If I’ve missed anything or something is unclear feel free to fire back any questions. Nice post.... but I still feel its the climbers ultimate responsiblity to make sure he/she raps down safely... not the person on the ground. Your attention on the ground is a plus at most. If the person rapping has any doubt the ropes end have hit bottom, they take responsibility not to rap down until they get confirmation from someone on the ground. Sorry, but anything else is just shucking your ultimate responsibility to watch out for your own safety..
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kennoyce
Oct 16, 2008, 3:38 PM
Post #34 of 41
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I agree completely with you. Once a climber is "off Belay" It is no longer the belayers responsibility to watch what is going on. At this point it is the climbers responsibility to watch the ends of the rope, and make sure they reach the ground, or tie knots into the ends, or ask the belayer to confirm that they are on the ground. I don't want to sound like a jerk, and I am glad that the climber made it out ok, but like has been said, how many rapping accidents have happened in the last few months. I think it is time that we start paying more attention as climbers. I'll be the first to admit that there was I time that I was very complacent when it came to rapping, and didn't pay as much attention as I should have, Then I watched a friend fall 50 feet to the ground on his back when he tried rapping off of an unanchored rope while setting up multiple top ropes. Since then I am extremely cautious when rapping. I know that there are many people who have not had any first hand experience with a rapping accident, but come on, there are enough stories on the internet to make everyone much more cautious. Once again I hope that the injured climber has a speedy recovery, but lets all use this as a lesson, and pay more attention when rapping.
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robdotcalm
Oct 16, 2008, 5:05 PM
Post #35 of 41
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dynosore wrote: I don't know what's scarier....the fact that this happened, or the underlying tone of this thread that such mistakes are inevitable. These types of mistakes DO NOT happen to competent climbers, sorry. We all make mistakes, but not like this. A total disregard for safety. There are MULTIPLE errors here. Not looking down to see where the ends of your rope are(!), not tying a knot in the ends, AND no rappel backup? If I were you, I'd think long and hard about some of your habits, while you still can. This might be somewhat understandable if you were rapping off a 12 pitch climb in a thunderstorm, but a 30 foot crag? Geez. This is false unless you mean that anyone who ever makes a mistake is not “competent”. This kind of circular reasoning has little value. This summer watching major league baseball, I saw an outfielder let a ground ball roll through his legs and a catcher throw to the wrong base. These are top-flight athletes carefully trained, coached, fully experienced and paid well for performing well. Under your definition they must be labeled as “incompetent”. In relation to baseball, they are more competent than most of here are relative to climbing. In the summer of 1994, two well-known international climbing guides, one with a sterling international reputation, died in accidents “like this” including one on a 25-foot cliff and the other on a simple rappel accident. By your definition they were “incompetent”. I was acquainted with both. They are many similar accidents involving competent climbers. The partner of the victim has made the obvious assertion that it pays to check what your partner is doing and in this thread he is chastised as if he committed a mortal sin. That is, the peanut gallery moralized the issue by using a lot of irrelevant “should’s”. Belayer: Thanks for the post and the willingness to expose yourself to a lot of junk from the peanut gallery. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus
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crimpandgo
Oct 16, 2008, 5:36 PM
Post #36 of 41
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robdotcalm wrote: dynosore wrote: I don't know what's scarier....the fact that this happened, or the underlying tone of this thread that such mistakes are inevitable. These types of mistakes DO NOT happen to competent climbers, sorry. We all make mistakes, but not like this. A total disregard for safety. There are MULTIPLE errors here. Not looking down to see where the ends of your rope are(!), not tying a knot in the ends, AND no rappel backup? If I were you, I'd think long and hard about some of your habits, while you still can. This might be somewhat understandable if you were rapping off a 12 pitch climb in a thunderstorm, but a 30 foot crag? Geez. This is false unless you mean that anyone who ever makes a mistake is not “competent”. This kind of circular reasoning has little value. This summer watching major league baseball, I saw an outfielder let a ground ball roll through his legs and a catcher throw to the wrong base. These are top-flight athletes carefully trained, coached, fully experienced and paid well for performing well. Under your definition they must be labeled as “incompetent”. In relation to baseball, they are more competent than most of here are relative to climbing. In the summer of 1994, two well-known international climbing guides, one with a sterling international reputation, died in accidents “like this” including one on a 25-foot cliff and the other on a simple rappel accident. By your definition they were “incompetent”. I was acquainted with both. They are many similar accidents involving competent climbers. The partner of the victim has made the obvious assertion that it pays to check what your partner is doing and in this thread he is chastised as if he committed a mortal sin. That is, the peanut gallery moralized the issue by using a lot of irrelevant “should’s”. Belayer: Thanks for the post and the willingness to expose yourself to a lot of junk from the peanut gallery. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus Not to jump on Dyno here but... the issue is not competence. the issue more often than not is inattentiveness... or not paying attention. as has been said many times berefore, the more competent folks often are at higher risk of this kind of stuff because they do it so often they can become lazy. Don't really need to list the "competent" folks that have had worse stuff than this happen to them, but the Lynn Hill incedent immediately comes to mind. I certainly would not be calling her imcompetant..
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keenest
Oct 16, 2008, 8:46 PM
Post #37 of 41
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Registered: Oct 24, 2007
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What nobody has pointed out here is that ADH24 is da man for saving his life!! He could not and should not have attempted to move. You were well prepared and handled the situation well. I probably would have just pushed him into the radioactive lake below the crag. ;-). Just kidding. Let us all learn from mistakes like this. I know I'll be wearing a helmet and tying knots in my rope from now on. I have climbed with both the subject and his belayers. I can confidently say that they are all excellent climbers with many years of experience. If anyone here can honestly say that they have not had a moment in their life where they thought to themselves "Holy S(*&, I'm glad I caught that mistake before it led to a bloody mess" then you are oh so perfect and probably living a boring life (in your mom's basement). Sorry for dwelling on the subject. On to more interesting details. The subject climber did an excellent job at PLF'ing which he learned from jumping out of airplanes. Otherwise he may have ended up landing directly on and breaking his leg in half like this guy at Smith Rock a couple weeks back. http://kohd.com/news/local/52203 Fortunately he is OK as well. Great to hear that you are well. Speedy recovery to ya and see you out there again soon!
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PosiDave
Oct 17, 2008, 2:29 AM
Post #38 of 41
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Accidents happen because people get comfortable with what they are doing and stop thinking about what really matters not because they are stupid. Sorta like how you rant about how dumb people are for making a mistake because god or whoever made you to be the only human to never make a mistake. Yeah it is his fault for rapping of the end of his rope. yes he paid the price. I on the same climb forgot a biner to clip the rope to so i held it in my teeth and untied as my belayer stepped on the rope pulling it to the ground. it is a 40ft. climb at most you get careless and make mistakes. some of us just end up paying the price more than others.
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t_d_lovell
Jun 29, 2009, 7:45 PM
Post #39 of 41
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For the sake of a different perspective, I was at a NCRC seminar last week, although not climbing which I also do, it shares many of the same risks. The time we were most at risk was not when we were on rope in cave, rigging, transporting the patient(s) or DC the systems, but when we were in our cars driving home. The point being as soon as you believe you won't make mistakes is the time you will. Complacency takes no prisoners.
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dhorgan
Jun 29, 2009, 9:07 PM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: Jul 25, 2007
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I'd agree with PosiDave...it's really easy to get distracted. I've rappelled hundreds (thousands?) of times but... The other week I was setting up to rappel and, in the middle of putting my ropes into my ATC got distracted by something...went on with what I was doing...and then I went to snug up on the ropes before unclipping and found that I'd put the ropes through the atc but not the locker and out of the ATC they came. Happily I was still clipped in at that point. But it made me even more of a believer in the other half of my setup, already in place, a backup friction device (you can use an autoblock knot, but I use a Petzl Shunt). So even if I HADN'T been clipped in, I was still clipped in! People have talked a lot about knots in the ends and those are essential, but a backup can be useful in a lot of scenarios (tangled or stuck ropes, hand slips, rope burn, rockfall hits you in head, whatever). We're always building a lot of redundancy into our belay anchors...but it's not belay anchor failures that seem to be getting people killed and hurt. Consider adding more redundancy to your rappel setup, even though it can make for a bit more futzing around. And then check everything over a couple times before you cast off. Takes 6 seconds. Someday you'll be glad you did.
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joeforte
Jun 29, 2009, 9:19 PM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: May 9, 2005
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dhorgan wrote: I'd agree with PosiDave...it's really easy to get distracted. I've rappelled hundreds (thousands?) of times but... The other week I was setting up to rappel and, in the middle of putting my ropes into my ATC got distracted by something...went on with what I was doing...and then I went to snug up on the ropes before unclipping and found that I'd put the ropes through the atc but not the locker and out of the ATC they came. Happily I was still clipped in at that point. But it made me even more of a believer in the other half of my setup, already in place, a backup friction device (you can use an autoblock knot, but I use a Petzl Shunt). So even if I HADN'T been clipped in, I was still clipped in! People have talked a lot about knots in the ends and those are essential, but a backup can be useful in a lot of scenarios (tangled or stuck ropes, hand slips, rope burn, rockfall hits you in head, whatever). We're always building a lot of redundancy into our belay anchors...but it's not belay anchor failures that seem to be getting people killed and hurt. Consider adding more redundancy to your rappel setup, even though it can make for a bit more futzing around. And then check everything over a couple times before you cast off. Takes 6 seconds. Someday you'll be glad you did. Great post, I totally agree. I use a 3 wrap autoblock of 6mm cord on my right leg loop. It is attached with a superfly locker. These two items alone have tons of uses in an emergency. After I thread my rope to rappel, I pull up about 2 feet of both ropes together and attach my autoblock. This holds the weight of the ropes, and makes it much easier to thread the device. Before I cast off, I make sure to take up slack and weight the device. This way you don't have to hope it will hold you after you detach from the anchor, and eliminates the risk of shock loading. Wow, what a thread resurrection! I think it is definitely a relevant topic in the Birdsboro section!
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