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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:26 AM
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I know this is not about rock climbing
so if it annoys you just move on. I mean
no disrespect, but do hope to tap into
some of the knowledge dispersed here.
What are your thoughts on one line
going over a house and anchored by
a static belay (in this case concrete
with eye-hooks in 5 gal paint buckets)
on each side?
Then either a self retracting lanyard or
rock climbing devices or a type of prusik knot
on the mainline allowing moving out from the
main line.
This is something that would need easy
setting up and taking down and often.
Thanks.
gmos
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johnwesely
Mar 29, 2009, 3:34 AM
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Is that a poem. If it is you are using to much symbolism because I do not know what you are talking about.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:44 AM
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Try reading it again Wossey.
It's pretty straighforward.
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rschap
Mar 29, 2009, 3:44 AM
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I’m not sure what you’re asking exactly, but what I have seen is a roofing crew placing a concrete block on one side of a house, on the ground, and running a rope to each person on the roof. Of course this only works if you’re on the opposite side of the house but I have seen a crew on the same side as the block before. You could use a gri gri or some other locking device to move back and forth and be safer if you like.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:51 AM
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Thanks rschap. That is what I was talking about
except concrete blocks on both sides and one line.
Then some locking device on the main line and something like the Protecta retracting lanyard that
goes out 11', 3/4" web, 3" dia. 2" thick, 2.8 lbs.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 4:13 AM
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Thanks rschap. I will digest this info for now and might come back at you later. In the mean time this is an interesting bit on youtube on the protecta self retracting lanyard. OSHA standards and all that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJl2unberoM
gmos
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acorneau
Mar 29, 2009, 2:04 PM
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A 5-gal bucket isn't going to be enough if a worker takes a good fall on a static rope. Better beef up your anchoring system.
Petzl make the ASAP for up and down positioning and fall-arrest:
http://www.petzl.com/...est-device-rope/asap
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esoteric1
Mar 29, 2009, 2:51 PM
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the weight would be fine as you have plenty of friction over the roof and up to the eve, your weak point is the anchoring into the concrete, dont go off the handles of the buckets, use concrete anchors into each of the buckets of concrete, i hope osha doesnt see this in practice.
edit, I wouldnt ask someone else to use this system without falling on it yourself first, and make sure the psi of the concrete is high.
(This post was edited by esoteric1 on Mar 29, 2009, 2:54 PM)
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Thanks acorneau.
If you were on the ridge of a roof
with a line well anchored at both ends
and using the ASAP
could you fall either way and expect
to have the slide stopped?
You can get about 95 lbs. per 5 gal
bucket. Three roped together would
give you a little margin even if the
static belay "took off" a little bit.
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rschap
Mar 29, 2009, 3:22 PM
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I don’t know if any device could stop a fall both directions, not one for climbing any ways. You’d have to flip the device over at the top.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:25 PM
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Thanks esoteric1.
This would be solo roofering (to coin a word).
No OSHA no involvement of others.
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epoch
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Mar 29, 2009, 3:35 PM
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If you are doing this as an industrial application while working - paid - on a roof. I'll assume that you are thinking of tangent applications while roofing as a profession, then this setup would be in violation of many OSHA rules. Three 5 gallon buckets with concrete in them, is going to be nowhere near safe for this.
Take a look into the requirements, as well as state and local codes and ordinances pertaining to what you want to do. Leave the craziness and tomfoolery to the climbers. Industrial applications of fall arresting gear require some beefy anchors. Concrete buckets and a static line, while it sounds good, will not meet these requirements.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:39 PM
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I had thought about two locking devices
pointed in opposite direction and the
lanyard connected to both of them.
Then taking a tumble from the roof ridge
in either direction expecting one to hold.
Or perhaps one of the prusiking knots
that I assume don't know up from down.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 3:57 PM
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Thanks epoch.
I agree with your comments about OSHA and other rules and regulations.
Think of the discussion as outside those circumstances and purely as a climbing problem
with various constraints.
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rschap
Mar 29, 2009, 4:06 PM
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Yeah I thought about that too epoch, I figured there was more to it that he wasn’t telling us or that we would one day see him on here http://www.darwinawards.com/. Either way…
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epoch
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Mar 29, 2009, 4:18 PM
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gmos wrote: Thanks epoch. I agree with your comments about OSHA and other rules and regulations. Think of the discussion as outside those circumstances and purely as a climbing problem with various constraints.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 4:20 PM
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No nothing that complicated.
Just questions in themselves.
Nothing more.
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xtrmecat
Mar 29, 2009, 4:32 PM
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One other consideration, the five gallon buckets for counterweight definitely are not going to work at all. I cannot in good conscience not mention the handle attachment, and recommending a barrel hitch on a non tapered plastic tube is equally stupid.
Bob
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gdtbave
Mar 29, 2009, 4:43 PM
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GMOS, I'm sure that it's occurred to you tie in your 11' lanyard somewhere near the peak of the roof? Anywhere else and you'd pretty much deck off a 10' roof I think? Also, is there maybe a chance of swinging back, through a window  I dunno, just a couple considerations, good luck 
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Thanks Bob.
I had not really gotten into the details of
the 5 gal. paint buckets of concrete, but
had expected to have steel anchors embedded
into the concrete. That would certainly require
careful thought and research.
But the more interesting question is what locking
device or knot would move easily along a line and
hold both when the line was going up and hold on
the other side of the ridge when the line would then
be going down.
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gmos
Mar 29, 2009, 5:00 PM
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xtrmecat --
Yeah, like John McClane in Die Hard.
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gdtbave
Mar 29, 2009, 5:06 PM
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Would it be more simple to tie a bunch of alpine butterfly loops, one every few feet, and clip into those?
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xtrmecat
Mar 29, 2009, 5:10 PM
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I think the best solution to your question of non directional lockup is this;
http://www.animatedknots.com/prusikrescue/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
I can be loaded in any direction, has ease of movement, tending it is simple, cost effective, and can be visually inspected at a glance.
It has no provision to backup though. You should never trust you life to a single piece of gear. The other potential problem is non locking of the hitch, is the moment it crosses the roof edge, and is loaded with roof edge weight that could delay tightening, along with grit involved, as in asphalt shingles, or tar on soft goods. Soft goods do not do well when subjected to sharp edges, as in flashing, gutter tin, chimney flues, etc. Highly suspect at best.
Bob
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irrational
Mar 29, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Just going to drop in my two cents into this one as i just had to do this less then a month ago to trap off a roof leak.
i would try to find something else for an anchor point like tree / deck leg / tow hitch etc .. and instead of using a prusik i would use a distel http://www.sherrilltree.com/...nots/DistelHitch.jpg works like a prusik but by squeezing it you break the knot much easer and can move around with it. And it works really well with a pulley underneath it so its very easy to self tend the slack. This is more of less the standard system that all arborists (tree climbers) use.
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epoch
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Mar 29, 2009, 6:19 PM
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irrational wrote: Just going to drop in my two cents into this one as i just had to do this less then a month ago to trap off a roof leak. i would try to find something else for an anchor point like tree / deck leg / tow hitch etc .. and instead of using a prusik i would use a distel http://www.sherrilltree.com/...nots/DistelHitch.jpg works like a prusik but by squeezing it you break the knot much easer and can move around with it. And it works really well with a pulley underneath it so its very easy to self tend the slack. This is more of less the standard system that all arborists (tree climbers) use.
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barkandbite
Mar 29, 2009, 6:30 PM
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Petzl has some experience with construction safety. check out http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/verticality/mobile-fall-arrest-device/mobile-fall-arrest-device-rope/asap
I agree that switching sides (of the roof) could be problematic. in this case I’d consider having separate devices for both sides so one can switch quickly and reduce worker error. Always stay clipped in as you transfer lines obviously.
Concrete counterweights could work ok. That is after all how some cranes are balanced. Be sure you have plenty of embedment force with the rebar hook and be sure there is an "L" shape bent into the ends of the rebar to resist pullout. Steel exercise weights with holes in them could work as well.
Probably a good idea to chat with the equipment supplier/ rep and get their input too.
Wear a brain bucket.
Work Safe,
B&B
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shockabuku
Mar 29, 2009, 7:25 PM
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Is there a lost backpack and a waterfall or something involved here too?
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irrational
Mar 29, 2009, 8:32 PM
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oh yes i forgot to put my disclaimer on that one... "take responsibility for your own actions"
oh and so by that logic gri-gri's are out too ... i guess its time to start foam padding all the sharp corners in the world too ...
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northfacejmb
Mar 29, 2009, 10:25 PM
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The Silent Partner locks off in both directions..
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irregularpanda
Mar 30, 2009, 12:27 AM
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gmos wrote: What are your thoughts on one line going over a house and anchored by a static belay (in this case concrete with eye-hooks in 5 gal paint buckets) on each side? Then either a self retracting lanyard or rock climbing devices or a type of prusik knot on the mainline allowing moving out from the main line. This is something that would need easy setting up and taking down and often. Thanks. gmos
Here are my thoughts:
Avoid arguments with the females about lifting the toilet seat - use the sink.
If you have a bad cough, take a large dose of laxatives. Then you'll be afraid to cough.
and finally
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
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gmos
Mar 30, 2009, 12:56 AM
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Looks like you,
the "irregularpanda",
specialize in scatalogical (look it up pal) humor.
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rangerrob
Mar 30, 2009, 1:09 AM
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We did a 3 story, 45 degree roof last fall. Once we exposed the ridge header we screwed eyebolts into it about every 10 feet. Then we clove hitched the middle of the rope two two consecutive ones, with a little bit of slack between each. Each tail could then be flopped over to either side we were working on. We had two ropes, and four tails hanging down. Each rope was secured to 2 eyebolts in case of failure of one. We used jumars and daisy chains to attach ourselves to with back up tie ins to the harness. It was a pretty efficient system, but I make no claim as to it's safety.
Once it was time to put the ridge cap on we just started on one end and removed the eyebolts as we got to them. The last 6 or 7 feet was done off a ladder up against the side of the house.
RR
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epoch
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Mar 30, 2009, 1:11 AM
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I was just going to pipe in and suggest scaffolding and ladders seem to work well too.
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iron106
Mar 30, 2009, 1:12 AM
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If you do not know then you should hire someone who does. Or spend 1-20 years learning how.
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gmos
Mar 30, 2009, 2:14 AM
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gdtbave suggested Alpine butterfly loops.
Would there be any problem with pre tied
Alpine butterfly loops?
And thanks for all the thoughtful responses
both to the problem as posed and the warnings
and advice.
The Gordian knot here seems to be finding
a locking mechanism, hardware or knot that
will work well in both directions when up becomes down and down becomes up. Does this leave
just the Prusik [or double Prusik] as suggested
by xtrmecat?
And good ideas from barkandbite on the portable
anchorage.
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bill413
Mar 30, 2009, 2:45 AM
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I'm frightened by the thought that you seem to intend to rig this system without a basic understanding of which of these knots & devices work unidirectionally or bidirectionally.
If you are doing this under contract, or hiring folks to work for you, you probably need to abide by OSHA. If you are working on your own house, your own roof, you probably can do what you want. But, safety standards (while at times excessive) are there for a reason.
Using a prussik wrong can kill you. Using an ascender wrong can injure you. As a theoretical problem, there are several solutions...as a practical one, you should have practical experience before trying anything along these lines.
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irregularpanda
Mar 30, 2009, 7:09 AM
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gmos wrote: Looks like you, the "irregularpanda", specialize in scatalogical (look it up pal) humor.
I can tell by your lack of human-humor that you are a moose.
I hereby diagnose you with chimpanzee-acne, and moose-pimples.
There is a small chance of complications including (but not limited to) pulmonary embolism, social awkwardness, and necrosis of your funny bone.
The only proper prescription for these conditions is either dulaudid, a full frontal lobotomy, or a visit to a woman. No, not a silly little girl, a real woman.
The prognosis if this dire condition is left untreated: You will lose all sense of humor for-ever, and ultimately a permanent state of goom-bah-ness. In layman's terms: get a sense of humor.
(this diagnosis was given while drunk-typing, please respond with an appropriate level of glee, stupor, and grandiosity)
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gmos
Mar 30, 2009, 2:28 PM
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That was pathetic, irregularpanda.
You're embarrassing yourself.
Now let the adults talk, OK?
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gmos
Mar 30, 2009, 2:41 PM
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bill413 -- Thanks for your concern. I had said early on that no others were involved so there is no ethical issue there and not a matter for OSHA or other agencies.
You wrote: "As a theoretical problem, there are several solutions ..." I would be interested in your thoughts along those lines.
I know many of you have been irritated or concerned by this thread and sincerely so, but I can tell you
that it has been helpful to me.
My thinking now is a series of pre tied Alpine butterfly loops starting a the edge of the roof and two lanyards. One always clipped into a loop.
Thanks
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shockabuku
Mar 30, 2009, 2:45 PM
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No, irregularpanda is funny.
You're secretive and out of your element.
Quit being juvenile and just come out with what you want to use the thing for then maybe you can get some better feedback.
However, I think this is really just a majid-esque theoretical puzzle about getting people to realize that nobody can come up with a bidirectional grabbing device besides the prusik (and the silent partner).
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irregularpanda
Mar 30, 2009, 3:08 PM
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shockabuku wrote: No, irregularpanda is funny. You're secretive and out of your element. Quit being juvenile and just come out with what you want to use the thing for then maybe you can get some better feedback. However, I think this is really just a majid-esque theoretical puzzle about getting people to realize that nobody can come up with a bidirectional grabbing device besides the prusik (and the silent partner).
I agree on all counts. Kudos.
Basically, tie alpine butterflies every 3-4 feet along your line (someone already said that) or get 2 shunts next to each other, and don't move at all....
For further consultations call 1-800 PeePee5-1doo-doo
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clymber
Mar 30, 2009, 4:39 PM
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what pitch is the roof that you will be working...what sort of work will you be doing on the roof....if you are redoing the entire roof why dont you use rof brackets and a 2x8...if you are worried about it beind so steep that you will slide donw then so will your shingles
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gmos
Mar 30, 2009, 5:24 PM
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shockabuka -- If you think irregularpanda is
funny I'm OK with that. I don't and don't
understand his fascination with excrement,
but that's between you'll. I'm suggesting
that this website and certainly this thread
is not the appropriate place.
And I don't know what "majid-esque" means.
Please explain.
I had not realized the "theoretical puzzle"
aspect that you have so rightly pinpointed
until well into this thread, but it started
becoming clear to me as the comments
piled up.
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shockabuku
Mar 30, 2009, 5:36 PM
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If you do a search on "users" for Majid sabet and read through his posts it will become clear. But to cut to the chase Majid is a user who likes to pose somewhat unclear problems related to climbing in order to bring out his own version of learning points during the discussion. Sometimes useful, sometimes not, generally always frustrating/amusing and vague.
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