Sounds like a silly mistake by the leader.

May I ask how you got your rope burns? Was it on your brake hand and was your brake hand below the device or behind your at your side? Or where you busy taking in rope?

Based on what I read on MP, I think her brake hand was fine -- she burned her off hand trying to pull in slack after she locked off.

Not sure how she burned her hand with belay gloves on. That's another interesting question.

Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

Ha! Jay, come on out for a visit. We'll put you on some lines put up by some of our "gumby" locals that will make you pucker nice and tight for weeks!

This is plausible. I have had my hand get quite hot through a glove when trying to lower a climber quickly.

Jay

Lowering a climber so fast that your hand gets hot thru a glove seems to be a gratuitously unsafe thing to do. Why does anyone do that other than to show off (as I've observed in gyms and sport crags)?

The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Doing laps for endurance training, you want to simulate continuous climbing, so you want to get the climber to the ground as quickly as possible, to minimize the break between laps. That's one reason.

Jay

I'd rather downclimb than get decked fagging off like that.

So would I, but I'd rather get lowered quickly without getting decked than downclimbing.

Jay

The belayer has contributed the following information on Mt Project:

«What i meant by creating tension on the line was: I had my left hand on break, had take up as much slack as possible that way but at the last minute I realized there was still too much rope so with my right hand I jumped up and grabbed the climbers side of the rope to create tension while still breaking with my left.»

Well, her heart's in the right place, but I don't think her R hand was.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Where should her right hand have been? I'm confused. If it joined her left hand on the brake, the climber would have decked at full speed. The fact that her hand got burned shows that she managed to take some energy out of the fall and probably saved his life.

Where should her right hand have been? I'm confused. If it joined her left hand on the brake, the climber would have decked at full speed. The fact that her hand got burned shows that she managed to take some energy out of the fall and probably saved his life.

How quickly can the average belayer take in slack through a belay device? Come to think of it, what is an average belayer?

Troutboy, you've got the same take on it as me. The only thing I'm querying is that she was wrong grabbing the climber's side of the rope. Yes, she would get hurt, but she was trying to save this guy's life and probably succeeded. Even if she only managed to slow his fall by a little, then I think she did well.

It was mentioned in the original post that the climber fell trying to clip the second bolt so I think it would be fair to say that he was well into the groundfall zone.

I think in that situation knowing that the climber is going to laminate himself on the ground, most of us would have, in desperation, grabbed the climber's side of the rope.

I'm obviously being thick. I can see what you're saying if they were top roping, but they werent, therefore there had to be slack in the system cos it's very awkward trying to lead climb on a tight rope.

Her right hand should have been anywhere, except near the rope on the climber's side of the belay device.

Really? Where is your guide hand when you belay?

Jay

I think in that situation knowing that the climber is going to laminate himself on the ground, most of us would have, in desperation, grabbed the climber's side of the rope.

What happened here was an inexperienced and/or poorly trained belayer, probably using an inferior "modern" locked-off-by-default belay technique, panicked and reacted improperly in response to the fall—none of which, of course, mitigates her gumby partner's culpability in the accident.

Jay

So would I, but I'd rather get lowered quickly without getting decked than downclimbing.

Jay

I would agree about on "both sides" if the belayer had been cool about the leader pressing on to the second bolt.

The leader clearly failed to account for the partners lack of skills and abilities.

The only thing I'm querying is that she was wrong grabbing the climber's side of the rope. Yes, she would get hurt, but she was trying to save this guy's life and probably succeeded. Even if she only managed to slow his fall by a little, then I think she did well.

Gumby belayer drops gumby leader. Welcome to Tucson, the Pennsylvania of the West.

Jay

It's unlikely the belayer made the situation worse by her actions but the way that rope went through her fingers, she might as well have been trying to grab a fist full of water.

... and some people online are more concerned with talking shit and showcasing their own superiority than offering any valuable advice...

well played on all sides

Yes, I agree that she might not have made any difference, but then again she might have. Who knows? However in that situation, could you just stand and do nothing? Personally, I'd grab the rope. Sitting down wouldn't help me at all, cos it would only make a difference of 2 feet (I'm only 4'11" and I've measured the difference in distance of my waist from the ground, standing and sitting.

Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

Trixie

Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

Trixie

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.


A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling

through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).Jay

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device.

So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?

Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L

This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.

In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position?

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

Correct me if I am wrong: You advocate palms up for the purpose of rapidly taking in slack.

In other words ... The brake hand grips the brake strand and reels in slack (edit: guide hand is assisting with moving the other strand). At the end of that take-up stroke it is bringing its strand quickly up to the guide hand which is around the strand on the climber's side (edit: and is also returning to full arm extension). Guide hand pinches the brake strand allowing the brake hand to finish the cycle by sliding back towards the belay device and to the neutral position. Yes?

But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.
Jay

i think we all agree on that. i like to have belayers who are really lead hogs at heart. they "know how it is" to be "out there." i have less confidence in belayers that don't actively, regularly lead .

Thanks sooo much for your encouragement I'll remember never to be so impertinent to ask questions again and will remain in a state of rampant ignorance, allowing you to remain contemptuous. I'm obviously not worthy

That's great that you know big words, but every defensive poke slides you further down the gumby slope.

That's great that you know big words, but every defensive poke slides you further down the gumby slope.

Not to belittle the importance of good belaying and partner communication, but the climb where this accident occurred is NOT a sport line. It is a trad line with two bolts on it. Normally two pieces of pro are placed between the bolts, and so if the leader slipped while trying to clip the second bolt he was way into ground fall territory. While the belayer might have been able to do a slight better job the leader used some very poor judgment. Bolts do not equal sport climbing.

When the climbing becomes R-rated I expect topnotch belaying, not an "it's not sport climbing so I hope you don't expect too much from this belay" kind of attitude.

Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing.

Generally speaking a sport belay has the widest margin of error and the pedigree of the belayer only becomes more important as you slide toward gear protected or runout climbing.

Bullshit. But regardless, I'll take a belay from an experienced sport climber over an equally experienced trad climber any day, whether I'm climbing sport or trad.

Jay

People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less.

what a nightmare. i can see the next I&A thread ...

"i went trad/sport climbing and my belayer was a sport/trad belayer because I read that they were usually better belayers. oh boy did that not work out ...."

I'd suggest that the lax belays often come from folks who don't/can't see a way to trusting each other and/or who do not push their climbing limits.

Climb after climb,
* the leader never falls,
* the leader never expresses fear on lead,
* the leader never talks about why she down-climbed to clip the rope even though a blown clip there would have meant decking,
* the leader never explains how the belayer could have done a better job the next time <something> comes up,
* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

... belaying is reduced pretty much to knowing what to do if the leader sez "take" and "lower". That and ... (whew!) ... we don't have to have a relationship or partnership.

Of course, there will always be some belayers who just don't take it seriously, sport or trad.

Bill L

The point is that grabbing the rope with your non-braking won't do any good (you can't stop someone that way) and can do harm in injuring the belayer's non-braking hand. This could be a serious issue on a multi-pitch climb. Also grabbing the rope can take time away from taking in rope on the brake side. What people have been telling you (usual internet insults aside) is that your proposed action has negative consequences. Not all acts of desperation are helpful.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear.

* the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them.

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay

I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?

Jay

... And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?
Jay

Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers.

I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"

I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?

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