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edge
Dec 16, 2009, 6:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay
I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners.
And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?"
I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?
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billl7
Dec 16, 2009, 6:03 PM
Post #102 of 144
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jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: ... ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. ... And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay
edit: to fix quotations
(This post was edited by billl7 on Dec 16, 2009, 6:05 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2009, 6:33 PM
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edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time?
+1,413,291.774865
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2009, 6:42 PM
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troutboy wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: +1,413,291.774865 The number of significant digits in your post is in direct contradiction to your signature quote  . I think you better fix that. TS
meh - i've been called out enough on that to, well, not care. 
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wonderwoman
Dec 16, 2009, 6:53 PM
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jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: * the leader never thanks the belayer for catching them. No wonder I get hard catches. Jay
A belayer is only allowed to give me so many hard catches before I won't let him belay me anymore. It hurts too much. If the person doesn't listen to a request for a soft catch, they probably won't listen to any other requests in the future. That's been my experience.
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zeke_sf
Dec 16, 2009, 8:04 PM
Post #107 of 144
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Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay?
I have been thinking about my actual experiences being belayed, and the biggest factor I have noticed influencing the quality of belay is whether the belayer leads a lot. Usually, this means they anticipate your needs as a leader better. Then again, the best belay I ever had (for whatever intangible reasons made me feel this way) was from the spouse of a hard climbing FAist, and she did not lead that much.
Sport belayer vs. Trad belayer = retarded. For one, most experienced climbers I've met have had adequate experience in both. For another, yes, "sport belayers" will have caught more falls, but "trad belayers" will have more of that fishing line feel for the rope when the leader moves out of sight. Do you "sport belay"? Are you a "trad belayer"? Is rockclimbing.com futzing over bullshit semantic wankery again? Why, yes, yes I think it is.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #108 of 144
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I belay a couple of grades lower on trad than I do sport.
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wonderwoman
Dec 16, 2009, 8:29 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay? I have been thinking about my actual experiences being belayed, and the biggest factor I have noticed influencing the quality of belay is whether the belayer leads a lot. Usually, this means they anticipate your needs as a leader better. Then again, the best belay I ever had (for whatever intangible reasons made me feel this way) was from the spouse of a hard climbing FAist, and she did not lead that much. Sport belayer vs. Trad belayer = retarded. For one, most experienced climbers I've met have had adequate experience in both. For another, yes, "sport belayers" will have caught more falls, but "trad belayers" will have more of that fishing line feel for the rope when the leader moves out of sight. Do you "sport belay"? Are you a "trad belayer"? Is rockclimbing.com futzing over bullshit semantic wankery again? Why, yes, yes I think it is.
five stars for zeke!
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lena_chita
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Dec 16, 2009, 9:17 PM
Post #110 of 144
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zeke_sf wrote: Can we at least come to a consensus opinion and say that boulderers give the worst belay?
But they are the best spotters! And you need a belayer with a spotting experience if you are climbing trad... or if the first bolt is too high, and the stick clip is broken.
So you see, the best belayer is a strong boulderer who climbs both sport and trad.
Wait, I know ice-climbing should figure in this somehow, too...
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ClimbClimb
Dec 16, 2009, 10:10 PM
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For all the hate heaped upon the belayer in the actual incident under discussion (remember that? see p.1), there is not much evidence that even the best belayer could've come up with a better outcome. The belayer's feelings of regret and perhaps guilt post-accident are not evidence of any actual fault. Leader took a risk, was run-out with 15-20 feet of rope past last bolt at 15 ft. That's it. It happens. Very sad. Speedy recovery to all, physical & mental.
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 2:43 AM
Post #112 of 144
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Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865
So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
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Gmburns2000
Dec 17, 2009, 3:01 AM
Post #113 of 144
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865 So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times?
oh yeah, none.
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 3:13 AM
Post #114 of 144
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865 So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times? that was easy. oh yeah, none.
must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then 
Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 17, 2009, 3:24 AM
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865 So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times? that was easy. oh yeah, none. must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me.
OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does?  *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch)
Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks.
I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it.
I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back.
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 3:36 AM
Post #116 of 144
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865 So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times? that was easy. oh yeah, none. must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me. OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does? *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch) Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks. I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it. I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back.
Never been heard a radio at rumney, never stay at walls with gumbys, can easily avoid crowds on weekends even when there are cars on the road. Can't always avoid the "ON BELAY ON MARIA, FROGSHEAD, HIGH EEEEEEEE!!!!!1111" not to mention the rope cutting, guide leaving clients on top of a free hanging rappel alone and screaming. Oh and this last time a 5 year old crying on High exposure scared of of his mind. AND a guy belaying his leader up P2 of High e taking his hand off the brake... skills!!
no posers at the gunks? please... folks with like triples in everything all shiny REI tags still on their harness clanking in to do Beginners delight and Yum yum
mostly i'm saying that the whole "trad belayer vs sport belayer" shit is stupid. there are good belayers and bad belayers
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wonderwoman
Dec 17, 2009, 3:46 AM
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Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome!
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 3:55 AM
Post #118 of 144
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wonderwoman wrote: Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome!
Sounds like fun ;) though i don't tend to go to the nears.. goes to show what looking in the guide book for easy shit can get you in trouble :) Beginners delight has a pretty freaky to the uninitiated hand traverse under a roof also
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wonderwoman
Dec 17, 2009, 4:01 AM
Post #119 of 144
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jakedatc wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Holy smokes! Yum Yum Yab Yum is one crazy ass 5.3, and I certainly hope no beginner climbers can find it to have an epic on it. I'd certainly get on it again. It's a huge 5.3 overhanging traverse with a thin seam to protect. Your fanny is hanging over nothing but the view of the Hudson valley below. You'll never wait in line for it & it's awesome! Sounds like fun ;) though i don't tend to go to the nears.. goes to show what looking in the guide book for easy shit can get you in trouble :) Beginners delight has a pretty freaky to the uninitiated hand traverse under a roof also
never tried that one. But for some freak reason, I LOVE TRAVERSES! So, maybe I'll check it out next season.
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jakedatc
Dec 17, 2009, 4:09 AM
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Wrist P2 traverse.. uber fun.. becc said i'd crap myself but it was fun.
don't wait around for Beg. delight. it's not that great
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notapplicable
Dec 17, 2009, 7:30 AM
Post #121 of 144
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climbsomething wrote: notapplicable wrote: When the climbing becomes R-rated I expect topnotch belaying, not an "it's not sport climbing so I hope you don't expect too much from this belay" kind of attitude. The curmudgeon who really taught me how to belay expects topnotch even on sport routes. I know plenty of people take a "meh"approach to belaying when it's "only" sport climbing but that's totally unacceptable.
Yeah now that I go back and read my post, it doesn't convey anything close to what I intended. When I said that "a sport belay has the widest margin for error" I only meant to say that the frequency and reliability of the protection eliminates certain variables that make it (IMO) an overall safer medium for new or inexperienced belayers to take part in. There is obviously the question of the increased frequency of falling and I have to admit that I did not consider that in my original response.
At the end of the day I expect a persons best on every belay and part of that is understanding that what defines a good belay varies with the route and style of protection.
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hansundfritz
Dec 17, 2009, 2:15 PM
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The thread has finally drifted into something I know about: easy climbs at the Gunks.
I've done BG at least a dozen times. Never waited in line once. P2 and P3 are great. On P2, if you climb all the way up the huge corner before traversing, it is harder and less protectable. Better to start traversing sooner. There used to be a pin on the traverse. I wonder if it is still there? Swain's comment still rings true: 'Quite the exciting 5.3!"
Oh yeah -- the accident on Mt. Lemmon. Poor judgment by the leader -- needless run-out. Hope he recovers quickly.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 17, 2009, 2:19 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: edge wrote: jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay Must be An East vs. West thing. I bet 90% of the Northeast sport climbers learned in a gym. Sad, really, and I have opined many times herewith about this sorry state, but people who learn in a gym are... ready?... gym climbers. I would seriously question the vast majority of Rumney climbers as serious trad partners. And "why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional?" I guess AZ rock is more accommodating than New England. We frequently make due with what we have, make our best accommodations, and climb accordingly. Sometimes that means the leader is "on her own" but shouldn't that always be considered ahead of time? +1,413,291.774865 So gumby which rumney sport climber got you injured so many times? that was easy. oh yeah, none. must have been their super traddy experience and skillz that didn't save you then Edge has actually climbed enough at Rumney to respect his opinion. you on the other hand.. should shut the fuck up because *I* wouldn't let YOU belay me. OH NOES! Jake won't belay me! What am I goings to does? *runz and hidez* (it's too bad. I actually give a decent catch) Before I settled in with the Boston crowd, just as I was moving back from Europe, I lived in Manchvegas, and Rumney (well, other than that small crag under the powerlines just outside of town) was my only crag for about three to four years. No, I don't have Edge's experience, but I've climbed enough there to know that there's a reason I don't like going there if I could go to NoCo or the 'Gunks otherwise. I can always get away from the crowds at the 'Gunks. I like Rumney. I really do. Some of my favorite climbs are there and the Baker is 10x better than Split Rock or the Saco at the end of the day (plus camping on the grass is plush compared to Slime). It's the fucking posers that frequent the place every damn weekend that I hate. I've never heard a damn radio at the crag at the 'Gunks, and if I want to get away from the damn cigs all I gotta do climb up a pitch and be done with it. I admit though, I trolled you and, yeah, you successfully trolled me back. Never been heard a radio at rumney, never stay at walls with gumbys, can easily avoid crowds on weekends even when there are cars on the road. Can't always avoid the "ON BELAY ON MARIA, FROGSHEAD, HIGH EEEEEEEE!!!!!1111" not to mention the rope cutting, guide leaving clients on top of a free hanging rappel alone and screaming. Oh and this last time a 5 year old crying on High exposure scared of of his mind. AND a guy belaying his leader up P2 of High e taking his hand off the brake... skills!! no posers at the gunks? please... folks with like triples in everything all shiny REI tags still on their harness clanking in to do Beginners delight and Yum yum mostly i'm saying that the whole "trad belayer vs sport belayer" shit is stupid. there are good belayers and bad belayers
Nah, like Rumney, the 'Gunks aren't that busy if you know where to go. That whole Maria wall area is crowded, sure, but I try real hard not to go there unless it is early in the morning or late Sunday afternoon. Otherwise, it's the ends of the Nears and Trapps.
Oddly, I've always found the Meadows at Rumney to be the least crowded on weekends. 
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 3:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: aerili wrote: People who learned to belay on trad routes primarily often scare me when belaying on sport routes: they tend to not watch you, have more slack in the rope, and anticipate your moves less. I have the same fears when a sport climber belays me on trad. All that you said, plus I usually have to ask them to come closer to the wall so that they're closer to being under the first piece of gear. I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay
As Edge mentioned, this may be an East/West thing or it may be a generational thing. From my experience, younger climbers or even most climbers to start in the last decade have mainly followed the progression of gym to toprope to sport to trad (myself included).
As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.
As for the op, belaying aside, I hope that she now realizes that she has the right to refuse a belay if she feels that her experience is not up to par. So called "experieced" climbers do not necessarily have the judgement that you might expect.
Josh
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 5:44 PM
Post #125 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: I suspect our definitions of "sport climber" are different. Every sport climber I know started out as a trad climber. And why isn't your first piece of gear multi-directional? Jay As Edge mentioned, this may be an East/West thing or it may be a generational thing.
It's mostly generational, but there may be a local thing, too. Both Yosemite and J Tree have climbing schools that offer classes for complete beginners. So it is easy for someone out here to start climbing outdoors right from the start.
In reply to: As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen.
I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to slot an unopposed nut for my first piece, but I quickly run out of fingers and toes trying to count the times that I've seen other climbers do it when they could have either opposed the nut or placed a cam (and, yes, a cam in a vertical crack is usually good enough for this purpose).
Jay
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