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clc
Jun 14, 2010, 2:13 AM
Post #52 of 190
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jt512 wrote: That's weird, because I'd say that the majority of the time I have to give my second slack at some point on the ascent. Jay
The rope stretches a lot so they could just hang on the rope a bit if they need slack. And maybe I don't belay really tight.
on smaller more difficult cragging routes I use the Gri-gri with a single rope and I have to give slack out sometimes.
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ADT
Jun 14, 2010, 2:27 AM
Post #53 of 190
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whipper wrote: nope, it is NOT a 2 to 1.....it is a redirect
Here you go numbnuts. Scroll down a bit and it will explain to you in simple terms how a redirect effectivly doubles the force on an anchor minus friction of course.
http://climbinglife.com/tech-tips/whats-the-force-on-your-anchor.html
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reno
Jun 14, 2010, 2:29 AM
Post #54 of 190
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clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri.
Gotta ask the question:
Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode?
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 2:30 AM
Post #55 of 190
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clc wrote: jt512 wrote: That's weird, because I'd say that the majority of the time I have to give my second slack at some point on the ascent. Jay The rope stretches a lot so they could just hang on the rope a bit if they need slack.
Thank you for confirming my hunch.
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 14, 2010, 2:54 AM
Post #56 of 190
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reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode?
Gotta ask the question:
Why do you have a reverso, if not for the autolock function?
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whipper
Jun 14, 2010, 2:55 AM
Post #57 of 190
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ADT wrote: whipper wrote: nope, it is NOT a 2 to 1.....it is a redirect Here you go numbnuts. Scroll down a bit and it will explain to you in simple terms how a redirect effectivly doubles the force on an anchor minus friction of course. http://climbinglife.com/tech-tips/whats-the-force-on-your-anchor.html
here you go, just because some one wrote an article on the inter web, does NOT make it a 2 to 1 pulley system....
http://www.howstuffworks.com/pulley.htm
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~williar4/html/HapEd/NASA/SimpMach/Pulley.htm
http://www.explainthatstuff.com/pulleys.html
I could go on all day proving my point, could you
(This post was edited by whipper on Jun 14, 2010, 2:57 AM)
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ADT
Jun 14, 2010, 2:58 AM
Post #58 of 190
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The point is that a redirect effectively doubles the load on the anchor. THAT is FACT. I dont really care to argue with you. You can believe what you want.
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whipper
Jun 14, 2010, 3:04 AM
Post #59 of 190
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ADT wrote: When you redirect through an anchor and them belay off your harness you are creating a 2-1 pully and therefore doubling your load on the anchor in the event of a fall. .......but if you are doing this on a regular basis then your luck is going to run out eventually.
hmm, not what you said here is it, and no this is not just semantics, it is a gross misunderstanding on your part.
I really love the last line, I just cant believe the rash of anchors blowing apart lately from all the luck running out....
tell me ADT, how is a top rope redirect with you standing close to the anchor, any different from a slingshot belay
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moose_droppings
Jun 14, 2010, 4:47 AM
Post #60 of 190
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reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode?
You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 5:01 AM
Post #61 of 190
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moose_droppings wrote: reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode? You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second.
Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen.
Jay
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clc
Jun 14, 2010, 5:27 AM
Post #62 of 190
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whipper wrote: ADT wrote: When you redirect through an anchor and them belay off your harness you are creating a 2-1 pully and therefore doubling your load on the anchor in the event of a fall. .......but if you are doing this on a regular basis then your luck is going to run out eventually. hmm, not what you said here is it, and no this is not just semantics, it is a gross misunderstanding on your part. I really love the last line, I just cant believe the rash of anchors blowing apart lately from all the luck running out.... tell me ADT, how is a top rope redirect with you standing close to the anchor, any different from a slingshot belay
Both of you guys have points. The redirect does effectively double the force on the "top anchor" that the rope runs through but so does lead climbing. But we take lead falls all the time {atleast I do} and the cam or bolt doesn't pull. So the forces on the anchor will be quite low with a guy following up 2nd compared to taking a fall from above onto the gear.
really if your concerned about the forces on a redirect anchor, you better stop lead climbing.
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banjolele
Jun 14, 2010, 5:55 AM
Post #63 of 190
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I'm still a new climber, but I'm not new to basic physics. Redirecting a force off a set piece does create a pulley effect when one object tries to lift another object.
Now, if the object being pulled (the belayer in this case) is already being held up by the object (such as a hanging belay) the pulley effect is pretty much negated.
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patto
Jun 14, 2010, 7:46 AM
Post #64 of 190
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banjolele wrote: I'm still a new climber, but I'm not new to basic physics. Redirecting a force off a set piece does create a pulley effect when one object tries to lift another object. Now, if the object being pulled (the belayer in this case) is already being held up by the object (such as a hanging belay) the pulley effect is pretty much negated.
Check your physics again. HINT look at the tension in the rope. (A 2x multiplication is assuming no friction at pully. Tests have shown that it is closer to 1.6x with carabiner friction.)
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sungam
Jun 14, 2010, 12:22 PM
Post #65 of 190
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clc wrote: really if your concerned about the forces on a redirect anchor, you better stop lead climbing.
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moose_droppings
Jun 14, 2010, 3:31 PM
Post #66 of 190
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jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode? You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second. Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen. Jay
Enlighten me Jay. Why am I and Reno accidents waiting to happen?
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 4:08 PM
Post #67 of 190
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moose_droppings wrote: jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode? You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second. Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen. Jay Enlighten me Jay. Why am I and Reno accidents waiting to happen?
Because, since the braking direction would be up, you would need to be above the anchor to brake effectively, which would put you in a position in which you could take a factor-2 fall onto your own anchor. I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground.
Jay
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 4:33 PM
Post #68 of 190
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jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay
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banjolele
Jun 14, 2010, 4:38 PM
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patto wrote: banjolele wrote: I'm still a new climber, but I'm not new to basic physics. Redirecting a force off a set piece does create a pulley effect when one object tries to lift another object. Now, if the object being pulled (the belayer in this case) is already being held up by the object (such as a hanging belay) the pulley effect is pretty much negated. Check your physics again. HINT look at the tension in the rope. (A 2x multiplication is assuming no friction at pully. Tests have shown that it is closer to 1.6x with carabiner friction.)
I wasn't pretending to actually do the math on the exact forces involved, nor cite unnamed tests. I was just pointing out there is a multiplication of forces on the anchor, be it 2 or 1.6.
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moose_droppings
Jun 14, 2010, 4:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode? You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second. Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen. Jay Enlighten me Jay. Why am I and Reno accidents waiting to happen? Because, since the braking direction would be up, you would need to be above the anchor to brake effectively, which would put you in a position in which you could take a factor-2 fall onto your own anchor. I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground. Jay
If my tie in point were above the anchor, placing myself in a position for a FF2, it would be almost impossible for me to reach down and take in slack. So that situation hasn't come into play yet.
Only my brake hand needs to be above the PP when braking. With the PP above my tie in point, this isn't hard to do. Though it is situational, I'll belay a second up this way frequently.
While I see your concern, I try to never put myself in a position that would cause a FF2 on to the anchor.
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csproul
Jun 14, 2010, 5:08 PM
Post #71 of 190
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moose_droppings wrote: jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: reno wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. Gotta ask the question: Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode? You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second. Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen. Jay Enlighten me Jay. Why am I and Reno accidents waiting to happen? Because, since the braking direction would be up, you would need to be above the anchor to brake effectively, which would put you in a position in which you could take a factor-2 fall onto your own anchor. I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground. Jay If my tie in point were above the anchor, placing myself in a position for a FF2, it would be almost impossible for me to reach down and take in slack. So that situation hasn't come into play yet. Only my brake hand needs to be above the PP when braking. With the PP above my tie in point, this isn't hard to do. Though it is situational, I'll belay a second up this way frequently. While I see your concern, I try to never put myself in a position that would cause a FF2 on to the anchor.
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redlude97
Jun 14, 2010, 5:12 PM
Post #72 of 190
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ADT wrote: The point is that a redirect effectively doubles the load on the anchor. THAT is FACT. I dont really care to argue with you. You can believe what you want.
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moose_droppings
Jun 14, 2010, 5:34 PM
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Good luck taking in slack when redirecting the brake strand.
I don't find it hard at all to lock off in high friction mode at all. Though I've yet to lower dead weight into space the way you've suggested, I can see the advantages for the redirect then. It would be simple enough after locking off to just clip the strand to a piece of the anchor and lower.
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robdotcalm
Jun 14, 2010, 5:40 PM
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hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri.
Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. .
r.c
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 5:48 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: clc wrote: """And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?" Jay "" I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding. As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though. Jay It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri. Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. . r.c
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