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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 10:48 PM
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ptlong wrote: hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0. Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay. Where have I said that this happens on every route? You people are too much. To recap, I'm talking about: -long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches) -a pitch with considerable rope drag -the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited To recap? You only said "out of sight" originally. Now it has to be over six pitches (why should that even matter), lots of rope drag, and of out of earshot as well. There are situations where it's hard to give a great belay, but it's the exception instead of the rule. You make it sound like it's typical. Your words: "Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept" In reply to: I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it. You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. In reply to: It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top. Not if they're out of sight, out of earshot, with a bunch of rope drag. Oh, and at least six pitches up. (snicker)
When we repeat routes we rotate who leads what pitch. I really don't care about TRFA and if you bragged about being guided up Astroman and TRFAed the whole thing I would say "Great! Now lead it!!"
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 10:56 PM
Post #102 of 190
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jt512 wrote: psprings wrote: ptlong wrote: You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. I don't think he ever said that he was pulling so hard that the second was hanging. The way I read Hafilax is that he pulls up, feels some resistence, then that's enough. And if he's belaying in fucking "guide mode"—which is how this all started—then his second is stuck with that much tension until he or she moves up. That is bad belaying. Sure, occasionally you might inadvertently put a little too much tension on your second, but at least if you're not belaying in this idiotic "guide mode" you can immediately reverse your mistake. Jay
Do you ever belay a second off the anchor with a GriGri? Does it ever lock up when the second tries to down climb? I've never tried it.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 10:56 PM
Post #103 of 190
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hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0. Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay. Where have I said that this happens on every route? You people are too much. To recap, I'm talking about: -long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches) -a pitch with considerable rope drag -the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited To recap? You only said "out of sight" originally. Now it has to be over six pitches (why should that even matter), lots of rope drag, and of out of earshot as well. There are situations where it's hard to give a great belay, but it's the exception instead of the rule. You make it sound like it's typical. Your words: "Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept" In reply to: I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it. You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. In reply to: It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top. Not if they're out of sight, out of earshot, with a bunch of rope drag. Oh, and at least six pitches up. (snicker) You people are the ones claiming that its trivial to always give a perfect belay...
No one has claimed that.
In reply to: ...and started ragging on me because I'm honest enough to say that seconding a pitch isn't a big deal.
Let's rephrase that statement so that it really is honest: You have so little respect for the quality of your seconds' climb that you don't think it's worth trying to give them a quality belay. Well, you and I would last as climbing partners for exactly one climb. I find your attitude deplorable. Your second is not climbing to clean gear. He's climbing to climb—normally to free climb—and he deserves as good a belay as he does when leading.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 14, 2010, 11:00 PM)
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whipper
Jun 14, 2010, 11:05 PM
Post #104 of 190
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Gotta agree with Jay on all his points. There are a hell of a lot of us out there who have been climbing for a long time, without "guide mode". I can easily eat and drink without it.
And really, why are all you people dragging 2 n00bs up a climb, and climbing multipitch routes with 3 people, that sound miserable to me...
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 11:05 PM
Post #105 of 190
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hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: psprings wrote: ptlong wrote: You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. I don't think he ever said that he was pulling so hard that the second was hanging. The way I read Hafilax is that he pulls up, feels some resistence, then that's enough. And if he's belaying in fucking "guide mode"—which is how this all started—then his second is stuck with that much tension until he or she moves up. That is bad belaying. Sure, occasionally you might inadvertently put a little too much tension on your second, but at least if you're not belaying in this idiotic "guide mode" you can immediately reverse your mistake. Jay I've repeatedly said that I don't advocate guide mode and I agree that a tight belay is made worse in that mode. Guide mode is no better and no worse than a GriGri.
In terms of being able to give slack to the second, guide mode is way worse than a grigri would be.
In reply to: Do you ever belay a second off the anchor with a GriGri?
No.
In reply to: Does it ever lock up when the second tries to down climb?
If the belayer is being attentive, he should be able to feed rope while the second is downclimbing; however, even if he were to allow the grigri to lock up, he could release the cam with flick of his little finger. Try doing that in "guide mode."
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 14, 2010, 11:05 PM
Post #106 of 190
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jt512 wrote: If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. Jay
This statement alone can only increase sales. I think I might run out and buy one right now 
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 11:28 PM
Post #107 of 190
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: hafilax wrote: ptlong wrote: In reply to: Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0. Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay. Where have I said that this happens on every route? You people are too much. To recap, I'm talking about: -long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches) -a pitch with considerable rope drag -the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited To recap? You only said "out of sight" originally. Now it has to be over six pitches (why should that even matter), lots of rope drag, and of out of earshot as well. There are situations where it's hard to give a great belay, but it's the exception instead of the rule. You make it sound like it's typical. Your words: "Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept" In reply to: I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it. You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much. In reply to: It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top. Not if they're out of sight, out of earshot, with a bunch of rope drag. Oh, and at least six pitches up. (snicker) You people are the ones claiming that its trivial to always give a perfect belay... No one has claimed that. In reply to: ...and started ragging on me because I'm honest enough to say that seconding a pitch isn't a big deal. Let's rephrase that statement so that it really is honest: You have so little respect for the quality of your seconds' climb that you don't think it's worth trying to give them a quality belay. Well, you and I would last as climbing partners for exactly one climb. I find your attitude deplorable. Your second is not climbing to clean gear. He's climbing to climb—normally to free climb—and he deserves as good a belay as he does when leading. Jay
All I'm saying is that belaying from the top will not always be perfect and getting your panties in a bunch over too much tension is a waste of energy. If you want to free the pitch, rappel and lead it yourself.
I'm obviously giving the wrong impression since I very much care about my seconds climb and do the best I can to belay them how they wish to be belayed. I'm thinking about this from my prospective as a second. It's nice to get a perfect belay but if that doesn't happen, so be it. Some things are beyond one's control and I don't fault my belayer when the situation makes for a difficult belay.
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 11:36 PM
Post #108 of 190
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hafilax wrote: Sometimes the second IS climbing to clean gear and/or to save energy for the next lead.
Not usually. I've never seconded a free route just to clean gear.
In reply to: All I'm saying is that belaying from the top will not always be perfect and getting your panties in a bunch over too much tension is a waste of energy.
No, that has almost no resemblance to what you've been saying.
In reply to: If you want to free the pitch, rappel and lead it yourself.
Yeah, that's more like what you've been saying.
In reply to: I'm obviously giving the wrong impression since I very much care about my seconds climb and do the best I can to belay them how they wish to be belayed.
That's not the impression I get from your immediately preceding sentence.
In reply to: I'm thinking about this from my prospective as a second.
Then you are projecting a very weird perspective of seconding onto your own seconds.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 4:18 AM)
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hugepedro
Jun 14, 2010, 11:50 PM
Post #109 of 190
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whipper wrote: And really, why are all you people dragging 2 n00bs up a climb, and climbing multipitch routes with 3 people, that sound miserable to me...
Then you're doing it wrong. When it's a couple of honey's that you're going to share a tent with it is definitely NOT miserable.
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hafilax
Jun 14, 2010, 11:52 PM
Post #110 of 190
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Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt?
(This post was edited by hafilax on Jun 14, 2010, 11:53 PM)
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jt512
Jun 14, 2010, 11:56 PM
Post #111 of 190
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hafilax wrote: Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt?
Not after they tell me that if I want to free the pitch I should rap down and lead it.
Jay
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hafilax
Jun 15, 2010, 12:17 AM
Post #112 of 190
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt? Not after they tell me that if I want to free the pitch I should rap down and lead it. Jay
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ptlong
Jun 15, 2010, 12:37 AM
Post #113 of 190
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hafilax wrote: if you climbed a terrific pitch in an amazing position high up on a rock face and your partner unfortunately gave you a terrible belay, you wouldn't take up the offer to rappel and lead it yourself?
That depends. But if my partner routinely gave me terrible belays and, when I protested, told me that if I wanted a good belay I should lead the pitch --- then I'd find a new partner.
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jt512
Jun 15, 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #114 of 190
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hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt? Not after they tell me that if I want to free the pitch I should rap down and lead it. Jay So if you climbed a terrific pitch in an amazing position high up on a rock face and your partner unfortunately gave you a terrible belay, you wouldn't take up the offer to rappel and lead it yourself?
WTF?
Jay
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hafilax
Jun 15, 2010, 12:44 AM
Post #115 of 190
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt? Not after they tell me that if I want to free the pitch I should rap down and lead it. Jay So if you climbed a terrific pitch in an amazing position high up on a rock face and your partner unfortunately gave you a terrible belay, you wouldn't take up the offer to rappel and lead it yourself? WTF? Jay
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patto
Jun 15, 2010, 1:19 AM
Post #116 of 190
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Jay why did you have to turn this into another argument about your hate of autoblock plate devices? The argument has been done before and is tiresome.
Your argument of getting a perfect belay for the second seems contrived. Keeping a complete tension free belay is next to impossible without direct sight. Rope drag makes things worse and can easily make giving slack to the seconder impossible without the seconder pulling.
But really who cares if you are seconding, I just want to get to the belay fast so I can lead the next pitch!
jt512 wrote: If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away.
Suely that can just sum up the argument and we can stop.
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jt512
Jun 15, 2010, 1:42 AM
Post #117 of 190
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patto wrote: Jay why did you have to turn this into another argument about your hate of autoblock plate devices?
Actually, rgold was the one who started us down that route. And, if Hafilax et al continue to defend this all-but-indefensible practice, they can expect to be called on the carpet for it. Believe it or not, there are actually people on this site who listen, and are willing to learn something, when the most experienced climbers on the site unanimously agree on something. So, perhaps someone out there will figure out that they really are giving their second a poor belay when they put them on "guide mode."
In reply to: Your argument of getting a perfect belay for the second seems contrived.
For the second, and final, time: that is not an argument I ever made.
In reply to: But really who cares if you are seconding, I just want to get to the belay fast so I can lead the next pitch!
Me, and every single partner I have ever climbed with.
In reply to: Suely that can just sum up the argument and we can stop.
If you think the argument should have stopped, then why did you perpetuate it?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 15, 2010, 3:40 AM)
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patto
Jun 15, 2010, 2:03 AM
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jt512 wrote: Actually, rgold was the one who started us down that route.
Rgold expressed his views clearly without insult to others. You however baited the arguemnt with your post:
"You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense."
You do an excellent job of turning discussions into arguments. You know it.
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jt512
Jun 15, 2010, 2:37 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Actually, rgold was the one who started us down that route. Rgold expressed his views clearly without insult to others. You however baited the arguemnt with your post: "You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense."
You do an excellent job of turning discussions into arguments. You know it.
No, I don't actually think I do, unless I'm actually trolling. On the other hand, you do an excellent job of belaboring arguments long after they are dead. The "kilonewton" thread was a particularly nice job. And, since you think you know what I know, I'll return the favor: You know it.
Prediction: you will now accuse me of something else. I'll defend myself, and you'll accuse me of being the argumentative one.
Jay
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scottmitch
Jun 15, 2010, 3:42 AM
Post #120 of 190
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rgold wrote: My personal solution is to embrace Item 1 and eschew Item 2. I belay from my harness...off the anchor. To do this, I use clovehitchology to easily set up a taut anchor line for whatever belay position I've chosen, and then clip my belay device to the tie-in knot loop, not the harness belay loop. Belaying motions are those of the harness belay, but any load goes immediately to the anchor via the anchor rope, which supplies a significantly better shock-absorbing connection than you get by clipping a device directly to some cordelette made of low-stretch materials. (I don't change things around when belaying the leader; I think this is the best set-up for holding a factor-2 fall as well.)
i dont really understand this but i want to - pics or clarify?
also whats the rational for clipping into the tie in knott loop?
thanks
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2010, 3:43 AM
Post #121 of 190
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I've been climbing a long time, and a couple things that I have learned for damn sure are;
1. Just because I've done something a certain way for many years doesn't mean it's the best or safest way of doing things.
2. When Jay has a problem with the way your doing something (especially belaying), it's time to rethink what your doing. His experience with belaying far out weighs mine.
Between Jay's and your input, it's time to change.
Thanks.
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banjolele
Jun 15, 2010, 4:00 AM
Post #122 of 190
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scottmitch wrote: i dont really understand this but i want to - pics or clarify? also whats the rational for clipping into the tie in knott loop? thanks
I think he means that he attaches his belay biner to the loop of rope that's attaching his harness to the rope (figure 8 or whatever). By belaying directly off the rope he is lessening the force on the anchor and himself if the second falls.
I think...
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rgold
Jun 15, 2010, 5:04 AM
Post #123 of 190
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scottmitch wrote: rgold wrote: My personal solution is to embrace Item 1 and eschew Item 2. I belay from my harness...off the anchor. To do this, I use clovehitchology to easily set up a taut anchor line for whatever belay position I've chosen, and then clip my belay device to the tie-in knot loop, not the harness belay loop. Belaying motions are those of the harness belay, but any load goes immediately to the anchor via the anchor rope, which supplies a significantly better shock-absorbing connection than you get by clipping a device directly to some cordelette made of low-stretch materials. (I don't change things around when belaying the leader; I think this is the best set-up for holding a factor-2 fall as well.) i dont really understand this but i want to - pics or clarify? also whats the rational for clipping into the tie in knott loop? thanks
I'll post a picture (or maybe a video) at some point. In the meantime, what banjoele said.
The rationale for clipping into the figure-eight tie-in knot rather than the belay loop is primarily to keep all loads off the harness and so off the belayer's body. There is no discomfort of any kind in holding a hanging climber, even if he has to prussik up the rope a bit (had to do this a few years ago). The load is entirely on the anchor, but you keep the superior take-in speed, slack control, ease of effort, lowering ability, and adaptability to varied anchor positions of the harness belay.
There is another reason, perhaps more important, when it comes to belaying the leader. If you have to hold a factor-2 fall on your harness, in addition to the very considerable problems of hanging on to a rope that will inevitably run through the belay device, you will be taking some of the impact on your body, and it is going to hurt. Moreover, the belay loop pulling down on the harness with the tie-in pulling up puts some big opposing loads on harness points that will be loaded like a screamer, which can't be a good thing for the harness. With the set-up I described, the load goes to the anchor, mitigated by the stretch in the belayer's tie-in (which or course is with the rope and not with some low-stretch sling material), and the harness and belayer's body is spared any destructive loads.
I learned this method from posts of Chris Harmston on the old rec.climbing. Chris was a BD engineer at the time and remains one of the most authoritative voices on equipment safety issues I know of.
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patto
Jun 15, 2010, 5:32 AM
Post #124 of 190
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Rgolds method is a simple and effective way of belaying from the harness while keeping the load on the anchor.
One disadvantage I see with Rgold's method is that escaping the belay is significantly more difficult. That said the ease of escaping should not necessarily be a big factor in belay/anchoring decisions.
I belay by attaching a large belay biner to the power point of my anchor as well as having it pass through my belay loop. If belay escape is necessary all you need to do is secure the belay device, backup and then slip your belay loop out of the belay biner.
That said I might try rgold's method, I think that I might like it. 
Oh, Rgold do you belay off your harness in a hanging belay?
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rgold
Jun 15, 2010, 6:51 AM
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In a genuine hanging belay, the anchor has to be over your head and you have to face in. With a single rope, I'd probably belay the second off the anchor with a Munter hitch. With the double ropes I almost always climb with, it is a choice between a harness belay redirected through the anchor or a guide mode belay off the anchor. I've done both (I'm not doctrinaire about the guide mode belay, I just think it is way overused).
Oddly enough, I think my choices would be opposite to the ones hafilax mentions. If there is a lot of friction, I don't want to be hauling the rope through a guide plate for example (even a redirected belay can be a pain in such circumstances). If communication is difficult and the climber out of sight, I'd also be inclined not to use the plate, and most definitely would not use it if the climb had diagonal or horizontal sections in which an out of sight and earshot second could be pulled off by the excessive tension of a locked-off plate. I also wouldn't use the plate if the anchor is in a corner or anywhere where the plate might get pulled into a position that would prevent it being released under tension.
If the climbing and protection placement is straight up, relatively casual, communication is good, and rope drag is low, then the plate seems to be a reasonable option for a hanging belay. I pre-rig it for release, use the release mechanism regularly to try to keep tension out of the rope, don't multitask, and keep my effin' hands on the rope.
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