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rockdr
Sep 20, 2010, 7:46 PM
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Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA.
I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
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caughtinside
Sep 20, 2010, 7:53 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
100% of BD cams are now Chinalots.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 7:55 PM
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They must have really lowered the bar for doctorates in Rock.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 7:56 PM
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caughtinside wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... 100% of BD cams are now Chinalots.
100% is a percentage.
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vegastradguy
Sep 20, 2010, 8:14 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
yeah, because no trigger wire on a cam made in the US would ever break for no reason.
BD's China based facility uses the same sources of material that BD used when it made its cams in the US. Unlike most 'Made in China' products, BD's are made by BD in China- the plant is theirs and its operated by BD, not contracted out to an unknown quantity in China. It's also ISO 9001 certified.
This argument about BD being made in China is old at best. Give it a rest.
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MS1
Sep 20, 2010, 8:16 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
Why do you have against Chinese people?
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billcoe_
Sep 20, 2010, 8:55 PM
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I was unable to discern the difference between a made in China BD and a made in US one. Try it.
Or buy Metolius, still made in Bend, Oregon by itinerant climbers.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Sep 22, 2010, 3:48 AM)
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milesenoell
Sep 20, 2010, 9:00 PM
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MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people?
I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries.
I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control.
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bearbreeder
Sep 20, 2010, 9:20 PM
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damn BD ... ever since they switched to having those damn chinese make their cams ... climbers have been dying left, right and centre
i mean i pull tested a cam with my dog (before he got eaten) ... and Yippie was able to pull it free out of a perfect placement ... course he ran away to chinatown and we found his bones at my favorite chinese restaurant
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MS1
Sep 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
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milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control.
I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones.
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moose_droppings
Sep 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
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Maybe BD could sub out some of the camalot production to CCH.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 21, 2010, 12:21 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: damn BD ... ever since they switched to having those damn chinese make their cams ... climbers have been dying left, right and centre i mean i pull tested a cam with my dog (before he got eaten) ... and Yippie was able to pull it free out of a perfect placement ... course he ran away to chinatown and we found his bones at my favorite chinese restaurant |
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irregularpanda
Sep 21, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: caughtinside wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... 100% of BD cams are now Chinalots. 100% is a percentage.
And yet, there is no such thing as halfway sober.
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rockdr
Sep 22, 2010, 2:23 AM
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Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later...
Ford Explorer - roller overs
Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals
China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys.
Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro?
The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear!
The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America.
In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
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milesenoell
Sep 22, 2010, 2:55 AM
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rockdr wrote: Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later... Ford Explorer - roller overs Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro? The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I don't know if it's intentional or not, but your posts have been coming off as pretty incendiary due to the racist over-tones.
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johnwesely
Sep 22, 2010, 2:56 AM
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rockdr wrote: Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later... Ford Explorer - roller overs Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro? The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I bet they also are in favor of putting fluoride in the water to taint our precious bodily fluids.
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vegastradguy
Sep 22, 2010, 2:57 AM
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rockdr wrote: China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro?
Yeah, because nothing life saving or more complex than a cam is made in china every day.
In reply to: The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I wish i was paid by bd, that'd make rent a little easier to make on funemployment. As it is, i just call it like i see it- ive talked extensively with black diamond folks about this and the reality is that unlike your example of toys or even products like apple who contract out their work to chinese firms, bd owns and operates its factory in china.
The other reality is that black diamond can't sell cams that don't meet CE/EN standards, nor could they claim ISO 9001 certification at the chinese facility if it wasn't up to par. Even if they contracted out, the cams still have to meet certain specifications to come to market- which they do.
The us economy has been moving away from being manufacturing based for decades- and in fact is probably no longer a manufacturing based economy, which is a reflection of our growth and maturation as a country. Manufacturing is always going to move away from rich countries and towards poor ones- its simple math.
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milesenoell
Sep 22, 2010, 3:13 AM
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MS1 wrote: milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control. I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones.
Basically, I was trying to reinterpret rockdr's statement such that is was less offensive and fit with a reality I had experience with (although I now wish I hadn't).
I didn't say the Chinese-made cams would be lower quality, if anything I was saying that the consistency could become suspect, because of potentially different standards for quality control. Climbing gear has such specific standards that I see far less room for differing standards to come into play.
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bearbreeder
Sep 22, 2010, 3:52 AM
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yeah those damn dog eating chinese cant make anything complicated at all ...
i mean iphones, computers, lcds, washing machines, etc ... they're all simple items carved out of bamboo
i want my doggie back 
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skiclimb
Sep 22, 2010, 4:28 AM
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See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product.
F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell.
no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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vegastradguy
Sep 22, 2010, 5:28 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
so...whats an instant whiplash force?
and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
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marc801
Sep 22, 2010, 5:45 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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redlude97
Sep 22, 2010, 6:22 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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mattm
Sep 22, 2010, 3:26 PM
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Not that this hasn't been beaten to death FOR YEARS but hell, I haven't chimed in on this one in a while.
I knew a guy (roomate) who worked on some of BDs hardware projects years ago. 2 in particular were the HOTWIRE and Neutrino. Anyway, we were talking cams one day and he mentioned that the SINGLE LARGEST COST of cam productions is the LABOR to ASSEMBLE the cams. He said the pieces of the cam (Lobes, springs etc etc) aren't hard at all to make. It's putting the whole cam together that takes time and $$. He described having to put the pieces in a jig, wind springs add triggers and then finish off the whole thing. Not technically hard, just a PITA.
When BD opened THEIR OWN plant in China this stuff was covered. As stated above, it is a plant OWNED AND OPERATED by BD. This isn't a sub-contracting out. (Apple and Foxcon for example) SLC BD Employees setup the facility and some remain over there supervising. I'm sure there are now BD China employees now as well.
[The next part is pure heresay. I heard that the process actually involved most parts still being made in the US, then shipped over to BD China for assembly and then shipped back. It's actually quite cheap to do and not nearly as environmentally bad as you'd think (boat fuel wise). ]
The quality has not changed one iota. I own at least 6 #1 C4s purchased over many years and the only thing that's noticeably changed over the years is how bright the anodization is on the outer lobes. Claims that BD Chinalots are inferior safety or otherwise are pure tin-hat theory.
RE: USA jobs. IIRC, BD didn't fire ANYONE when they did this. If anything, they hired more people. BD wanted to work on new projects (particularly BC Ski stuff I think) but they were financially limited with how they could task their SLC staff. They moved certain production capabilities over seas to free up US wok force costs for other projects.
Maldaly has a post on here somewhere regarding "asian manufacturing quality". It's about the Ballnutz and how he was approached about making them by a firm in Korea(?).
Look, ANY OVERSEAS manufacturing quality depends greatly on oversight and who you hire to make your product. Walmart has CRAP because they use crap companies to make their stuff. You don't think I know that when I buy the $20 OZARK TRAIL camp stove? I knew ANOTHER guy who was involved in picking sources for another brands Tents and clothing line. He said he was working with one of the big sources over there. (He and about 5 other known brands!). He made the point that it's all about 1) Choosing a quality Source company and 2) Making sure they're sticking to the specs you lay out.
He was working on a tent project at the time and the samples coming back were not good. Turns out one of the women sewing seams hadn't gotten the specs for the new project. She was using specs from another brand. This SPEC was how often you changed out your sewing needles. Other brand had lower standards so the needles got dull, the holes where too big and the seams leaked.
Walmart and Patagonia both source jackets from Vietnam. Do they have the same quality? No. You get he drift.
BD makes quality cams. Period. I buy gear based on a brands ability to produce QUALITY gear, not where it's sourced from.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
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MS1
Sep 22, 2010, 4:22 PM
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milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control. I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones. Basically, I was trying to reinterpret rockdr's statement such that is was less offensive and fit with a reality I had experience with (although I now wish I hadn't). I didn't say the Chinese-made cams would be lower quality, if anything I was saying that the consistency could become suspect, because of potentially different standards for quality control. Climbing gear has such specific standards that I see far less room for differing standards to come into play.
Well, BD seems to be doing a good job, and the most notorious SLCD quality-control disaster in the last decade involved a product that was "Made in the U.S.A."
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 22, 2010, 4:36 PM
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MS1 wrote: milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control. I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones. Basically, I was trying to reinterpret rockdr's statement such that is was less offensive and fit with a reality I had experience with (although I now wish I hadn't). I didn't say the Chinese-made cams would be lower quality, if anything I was saying that the consistency could become suspect, because of potentially different standards for quality control. Climbing gear has such specific standards that I see far less room for differing standards to come into play. Well, BD seems to be doing a good job, and the most notorious SLCD quality-control disaster in the last decade involved a product that was "Made in the U.S.A."
Don't try to bring reasonable discourse supported by example into this MS1. It's the damn Chinese!
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 22, 2010, 4:39 PM
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Dey tuk arr jerbz!
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dynosore
Sep 22, 2010, 5:06 PM
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I have a friend who is a metallurgist for a very large OE auto parts supplier (you'd know the company). He went to China to investigate a failure problem. This plant is totally controlled by them and is certified every way imaginable. Suffice to say what he found was shocking. He said it made their Latin American plants look like world beaters in comparison. Things that would NEVER fly in a US factory. I have heard too many of these stories from too many people to trust life saving gear made in China. Anyone want to bet where the Kong rings that failed were made? My toaster or fish aquarium sure, but gear I depend on for my life, no gracias.
PS nothing "racist" about pointing out facts, grow up. It's a fact China has huge quality and intellectual property issues. That doesn't condemn the poor guy working in the factory, it's just a fact of their evolution as a manufacturing economy.
(This post was edited by dynosore on Sep 22, 2010, 5:13 PM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 22, 2010, 5:31 PM
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dynosore wrote: I have a friend who is a metallurgist for a very large OE auto parts supplier (you'd know the company). He went to China to investigate a failure problem. This plant is totally controlled by them and is certified every way imaginable. Suffice to say what he found was shocking. He said it made their Latin American plants look like world beaters in comparison. Things that would NEVER fly in a US factory. I have heard too many of these stories from too many people to trust life saving gear made in China. Anyone want to bet where the Kong rings that failed were made? My toaster or fish aquarium sure, but gear I depend on for my life, no gracias. PS nothing "racist" about pointing out facts, grow up. It's a fact China has huge quality and intellectual property issues. That doesn't condemn the poor guy working in the factory, it's just a fact of their evolution as a manufacturing economy.
im sure that may be the case, but i also suspect there's a volume issue that you may not be considering. how many camalots do you think BD makes in a year? id bet its in the tens of thousands- 20, maybe 30? that means BD is making somewhere around 100 camalots a day.
all the issues you seem to hear about stuff produced in china comes from plants that are pumping out goods as fast as they can- which isnt the case for BD- in fact, if other climbing companies facilities are any indication, i suspect the BD China plant is TINY with only a handful of employees.
im not saying the BD China facility is perfect, but i suspect its much closer to US standard than you seem to think.
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redlude97
Sep 22, 2010, 5:51 PM
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dynosore wrote: I have a friend who is a metallurgist for a very large OE auto parts supplier (you'd know the company). He went to China to investigate a failure problem. This plant is totally controlled by them and is certified every way imaginable. Suffice to say what he found was shocking. He said it made their Latin American plants look like world beaters in comparison. Things that would NEVER fly in a US factory. I have heard too many of these stories from too many people to trust life saving gear made in China. Anyone want to bet where the Kong rings that failed were made? My toaster or fish aquarium sure, but gear I depend on for my life, no gracias. PS nothing "racist" about pointing out facts, grow up. It's a fact China has huge quality and intellectual property issues. That doesn't condemn the poor guy working in the factory, it's just a fact of their evolution as a manufacturing economy.
Peter Metcalf, BD CEO wrote: “Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from USA-produced 7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Aluminum here in SLC and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not changed.” |
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macherry
Sep 22, 2010, 6:55 PM
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milesenoell wrote: rockdr wrote: Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later... Ford Explorer - roller overs Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro? The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really.... I don't know if it's intentional or not, but your posts have been coming off as pretty incendiary due to the racist over-tones.
yup
and a broken record to boot
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dynosore
Sep 22, 2010, 8:14 PM
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Reading comprehension fail. Perhaps BD's facility is top notch, I don't know and I didn't condemn them specifically because I don't have firsthand knowledge of the operation. But I do know a couple things
Goods made in China have been rife with quality issues and...
Companies move there to save money, not to improve quality. Given the price of camalots I'd say they didn't pass the savings along. That perhaps tells me something about their priorities. MHO. You don't have to agree.
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redlude97
Sep 22, 2010, 9:05 PM
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dynosore wrote: Reading comprehension fail. Perhaps BD's facility is top notch, I don't know and I didn't condemn them specifically because I don't have firsthand knowledge of the operation. But I do know a couple things Goods made in China have been rife with quality issues and... Companies move there to save money, not to improve quality. Given the price of camalots I'd say they didn't pass the savings along. That perhaps tells me something about their priorities. MHO. You don't have to agree.
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patto
Sep 22, 2010, 10:19 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: dynosore wrote: I have a friend who is a metallurgist for a very large OE auto parts supplier (you'd know the company). He went to China to investigate a failure problem. This plant is totally controlled by them and is certified every way imaginable. Suffice to say what he found was shocking. He said it made their Latin American plants look like world beaters in comparison. Things that would NEVER fly in a US factory. I have heard too many of these stories from too many people to trust life saving gear made in China. Anyone want to bet where the Kong rings that failed were made? My toaster or fish aquarium sure, but gear I depend on for my life, no gracias. PS nothing "racist" about pointing out facts, grow up. It's a fact China has huge quality and intellectual property issues. That doesn't condemn the poor guy working in the factory, it's just a fact of their evolution as a manufacturing economy. im sure that may be the case, but i also suspect there's a volume issue that you may not be considering. how many camalots do you think BD makes in a year? id bet its in the tens of thousands- 20, maybe 30? that means BD is making somewhere around 100 camalots a day. all the issues you seem to hear about stuff produced in china comes from plants that are pumping out goods as fast as they can- which isnt the case for BD- in fact, if other climbing companies facilities are any indication, i suspect the BD China plant is TINY with only a handful of employees. im not saying the BD China facility is perfect, but i suspect its much closer to US standard than you seem to think.
How does volume play a part in it? It doesn't increase the labour cost per piece made so its not really relevant. Its not as though the US has a labour shortage.
The fact is that they moved to China for cost reasons. Consumers demand cheap gear so its good for consumers too. Unless of course quality drops then its very BAD.
To their credit China produces lots of high quality devices, just look at the build quality of many electronics these days. However personally I would prefer to pay 20% more for goods made in a country that I trust. DMM and Petzl for most of my stuff. Though I'll be keeping my BD Cams for the time being... 
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hafilax
Sep 22, 2010, 10:26 PM
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I'm more upset about BD being publicly traded than production in China (which appears to be limited to the CNC machining and assembly).
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 22, 2010, 10:38 PM
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I, for one, welcome our Asian Corporate Overlords.
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gmggg
Sep 22, 2010, 10:44 PM
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patto wrote: hafilax wrote: I'm more upset about BD being publicly traded than production in China (which appears to be limited to the CNC machining and assembly). Completely agree. I feel sad because of it. In the past I have disliked BD mostly because of the TopDog aura around it. But I own and love my Camalots. One of the best things about BD is its excellent communication with the climbing public. I love their blog posts. I fear what is going to happen to BD.
While I agree with you guys in principle. In reality nothing will happen to BD. Just look at North Face, and Mountain Hardware (Although they are both owned by the same company so maybe you count these as one example).
Up with the clothes production, up with the back pack models, militant take over of college campuses and "urban" clothing outlets, continue "technical gear" production uninterrupted.
NF and MH still have some good stuff although they now make a whole lot of junk. As long as you don't feel embarrassed wearing the same brand as an overweight 20 year old freshman whose jacket came from Walmart or Costco you'll be fine.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 22, 2010, 11:46 PM
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TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer.
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redlude97
Sep 23, 2010, 12:05 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer.
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curt
Sep 23, 2010, 12:17 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer.
Since you claim the ability to accurately see two to three years into the future, would you mind telling us who will win the 2012 US presidential election. It will save us a lot of time, energy and debate. Thanks.
Curt
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j_ung
Sep 23, 2010, 1:13 AM
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rockdr wrote: China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro?
By that logic, I should be running away screaming from all American cams and searching frantically for Chinese cams. There are reasons for Americans to buy American-made goods, but white superiority ain't one of them.
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gmggg
Sep 23, 2010, 2:42 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer.
Google "VF corporation"
And unless TNF sold MH (possible as I don't pay all that much attention) MH has been part of TNF since 04.
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redlude97
Sep 23, 2010, 3:00 AM
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gmggg wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer. Google "VF corporation" And unless TNF sold MH (possible as I don't pay all that much attention) MH has been part of TNF since 04.
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gmggg
Sep 23, 2010, 3:08 AM
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redlude97 wrote: gmggg wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer. Google "VF corporation" And unless TNF sold MH (possible as I don't pay all that much attention) MH has been part of TNF since 04. That was a false rumor. Columbia bought MH in 03, not TNF or VF
Ah. Cool, thanks for the info!
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 3:29 AM
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patto wrote: How does volume play a part in it? It doesn't increase the labour cost per piece made so its not really relevant. Its not as though the US has a labour shortage. The fact is that they moved to China for cost reasons. Consumers demand cheap gear so its good for consumers too. Unless of course quality drops then its very BAD. To their credit China produces lots of high quality devices, just look at the build quality of many electronics these days. However personally I would prefer to pay 20% more for goods made in a country that I trust. DMM and Petzl for most of my stuff. Though I'll be keeping my BD Cams for the time being...
I'm not talking about cost, im talking about size of operation and the pressure to crank out more product than the operation can handle, something that affects quality in any operation, and id bet good money is the primary culprit in many chinese quality problems- produce first, worry about quality later, if ever.
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milesenoell
Sep 23, 2010, 4:14 AM
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Am I the only one who thinks it's ironically fitting that The North Face is a subsidiary of Vanity Fair?
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curt
Sep 23, 2010, 4:17 AM
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milesenoell wrote: Am I the only one who thinks it's ironically fitting that The North Face is a subsidiary of Vanity Fair?
No.
Curt
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moose_droppings
Sep 23, 2010, 5:17 AM
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gmggg wrote: As long as you don't feel embarrassed wearing the same brand as an overweight 20 year old freshman whose jacket came from Walmart or Costco you'll be fine.
Anyone that's bothered by this has a long, hard road ahead of them.
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:13 AM
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PTFTW
vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay.
You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle.
Now go aiding on hard granite..
use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one.
you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country.
the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight..
rarely is that increased range important.
Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls.
if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys.
they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies..
both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement..
One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength..
which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:30 AM)
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:29 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
No I don't never have. I generally stick with one or two as the decades roll by. Occasionally trying out a few others.
When you have climbed as much serious shit as i have and have never had a serious injury and have never had a partner have a serious injury. then maybe I will consider your opinion seriously.
Actually if you have a good idea and have never climbed in your life i will consider your opinion seriously..but basically anyone who loves BD camashits or tries to defend them has simply made their lack of experince better know to me.. and made the rest of their opinions fairly suspect.
Arrogant bastard??.. Hardly
I'm Arrogant.. you are just a poser.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:32 AM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 6:33 AM
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skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
whats a camashit?
has it occurred to you that every cam on the market works fine if you use it properly and it all comes down to personal preference in the end?
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:37 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. whats a camashit? has it occurred to you that every cam on the market works fine if you use it properly and it all comes down to personal preference in the end?
Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams?
certainly BD Camalots (camashits) are excellent protection within their limitations...
that however is true of a tuft of grass, or a head of frozen moss. or the bumper of my truck or a couple tentpoles stuck in a crack.
And no on the personal preference thing.. some persons are lucky idiots.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:39 AM)
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marc801
Sep 23, 2010, 6:40 AM
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skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled.
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Colinhoglund
Sep 23, 2010, 6:40 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
Funniest thing I've heard all night, thanks!
On a more serious note. I work at a gear shop and have met several of BD's reps and know a few guides that are their field reps. They have told us about why they have to export their labor. Ignore the cost vs wages thing, there are simply not enough people who want to put cams together 9-5 for a career. (end BD opinion)
(enter my opinion) Same goes for sewing packs and rain jackets. I know one of the last GoreTex seamstresses in Canada, she lost her manufacturing job (she does repairs now and is awesome) because there were not enough workers in her plant to support buying the new machinery found in China. I have one of the last Canadian make Gore jackets, and to be honest; because they have better machinery, the new Chinese ones are better. Flat seams, better tape, less over glue marks etc.
China=better product+lower price, and it's our own fault. We as a society idolized white collar jobs, looking down on any blue collar workers. Therefore the blue collar workers half ass their jobs and are underproductive, thus devaluing their labor. It is a myth that we are sending (north)american jobs overseas as these are not jobs we want anyways. (I have both BD and Metolius gear btw) Thumbs up to Metolius for keeping production in NA, they must have some great employees. But seriously, lets all quit bi%hing about *made in China* unless we want our kids/cozens etc to aspire to be cam assemblers rather than IT managers. (it would be a sweet job in my opinion, but I'm not moving to bend) I'd rather have a hardworking Chinese person make my cams, then some Northamerican engineering dropout who couldn't make the cut designing these things, make them.
This may seem like a cop-out but, 'thats the way it is folks'. I agree buying green/local/fair trade does make a difference. But bashing an entire culture and self righteously thinking we do a better job as northamericans is BS. We don't, people are people; have good management and QC and your good to go regardless of where.
OUT, nough ranting.
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:45 AM
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marc801 wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled.
The design is my MAIN factor in complaining about the Camashit.
However the china situation just makes me more concerned.. China is growing too fast.. because of this their production leads are at times more tempted to take shortcuts in ALL factors of production due to various imput shortages.
this is less common in US manufactured products.
This is why I will not buy Chinese manufactured critical safety items.
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 6:47 AM
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skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams?
youre kidding, right?
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:50 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right?
Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above..
Camashit advantages.
Greater expansion range. (not unique)
Greater absolute breaking strenght than most. (not unique)
Ability to be placed passively (not unique)
Camashit disadvantages.
easier real world placement failure. (highest of all cams) (unique)
Much higher wieght. (unique)
For me the disadvantages far outweight the advantages.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:53 AM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 7:28 AM
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skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above..
right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that.
look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment.
i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack.
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 7:45 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above.. right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that. look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment. i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack.
Oh it's not really a hatred.. i'll use one if someone brings one along and I have no other handy alternative.
But i do not trust them as much as most..
IMO one of the best selling cam on the market is about the worst one in marginal placements.
reality is most climbers have not used a wide vairiety of cams repeatedly in a wide variety of circumstances..thus less experienced climbers tend to be conned by the concept of greater range and greater absolute breaking strength.. so they often buy camashits first when they have incomplete racks. .. hey they work so years later they still have em and recall their first cams with affection... while in reality they bought an inferior product due to lack of experience in what matters most in use.
The Camalot is a fairly crappy cam in comparison to many other readily available alternatives.
If i have a hatred for it .. it is basically this.. it perhaps the most popular cam and it is generally the worst cam and most expensive...
My inate sense of fairness just fucking hates shit like that.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 7:49 AM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 8:21 AM
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skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above.. right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that. look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment. i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack. Oh it's not really a hatred.. i'll use one if someone brings one along and I have no other handy alternative. But i do not trust them as much as most.. IMO one of the best selling cam on the market is about the worst one in marginal placements. reality is most climbers have not used a wide vairiety of cams repeatedly in a wide variety of circumstances..thus less experienced climbers tend to be conned by the concept of greater range and greater absolute breaking strength.. so they often buy camashits first when they have incomplete racks. .. hey they work so years later they still have em and recall their first cams with affection... while in reality they bought an inferior product due to lack of experience in what matters most in use. The Camalot is a fairly crappy cam in comparison to many other readily available alternatives. If i have a hatred for it .. it is basically this.. it perhaps the most popular cam and it is generally the worst cam and most expensive...
My inate sense of fairness just fucking hates shit like that.
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 12:22 PM
Post #63 of 71
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The issue for me is patently simple... american labor off shored renders Black Diamond just another corporation.
No different than all the other sell outs. What's the U.S. unemployment % again?
Climbing gear imports should be taxed heavily, around the 50% VAT range.
DMT
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dynosore
Sep 23, 2010, 3:13 PM
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skiclimb wrote: marc801 wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled. The design is my MAIN factor in complaining about the Camashit. However the china situation just makes me more concerned.. China is growing too fast.. because of this their production leads are at times more tempted to take shortcuts in ALL factors of production due to various imput shortages. this is less common in US manufactured products. This is why I will not buy Chinese manufactured critical safety items.
This is what I was trying to say, I believe you said it more eloquently. Too many firsthand stories from people I trust in industry to pretend it's not a real phenomenom.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 23, 2010, 3:35 PM
Post #65 of 71
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curt wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer. Since you claim the ability to accurately see two to three years into the future, would you mind telling us who will win the 2012 US presidential election. It will save us a lot of time, energy and debate. Thanks. Curt
Screw that, tell me who's going to win the 2012 World Series, Superbowl, and Stanley Cup. Daddy needs a new pair of shoeshouses.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 23, 2010, 3:51 PM
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skiclimb wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners. No I don't never have. I generally stick with one or two as the decades roll by. Occasionally trying out a few others. When you have climbed as much serious shit as i have and have never had a serious injury and have never had a partner have a serious injury. then maybe I will consider your opinion seriously. Actually if you have a good idea and have never climbed in your life i will consider your opinion seriously..but basically anyone who loves BD camashits or tries to defend them has simply made their lack of experince better know to me.. and made the rest of their opinions fairly suspect. Arrogant bastard??.. Hardly I'm Arrogant.. you are just a poser.
If you're going to try to take my title I'm going to have to insist that you learn how to properly insult someone. That was completely devoid of creativity, wit, or punchline. Any more of these gradeschool jeers and it's the highway for you bub; take it to Mountain Project where such "humor" is appreciated.
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 4:24 PM
Post #67 of 71
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dingus wrote: The issue for me is patently simple... american labor off shored renders Black Diamond just another corporation. No different than all the other sell outs. What's the U.S. unemployment % again? Climbing gear imports should be taxed heavily, around the 50% VAT range. DMT
Right, because BD fired so many employees to start this factory. I mean, people here are just clamoring to get jobs in the textile industry. Its just booming.
Unemployment is now at 10%, thanks to 10 years of horrible politicians, not because middle class Americans are having their jobs 'stolen' by illegal immigrants or outsourced labor to china.
Look, we don't manufacture anymore, and its BECAUSE that line of thinking. Its expensive because each factory needs a union, because of emissions controls, because of OSHA asking us to be safe, all good things to have, but if hippies like Dingus won't pay 100 bucks a pop for a BD cam made by my grandma in Des Moines, certainly Joe Unemployed won't.
Its cheaper and just as good to make it in china if done right, no one's job is being stealered and hardly anybody likes paying premium prices for made in USA gear. Trust me, I've been selling climbing gear for almost 5 years, I sell 10 camalots to 1 metolius/DMM/Wild Country combined.
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 5:04 PM
Post #68 of 71
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'Cheaper' is not a virtue.
I totally believe you that your customers buy camelots 10-1 over DMM. So what?
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 23, 2010, 5:05 PM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 6:07 PM
Post #69 of 71
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dingus wrote: 'Cheaper' is not a virtue. I totally believe you that your customers buy camelots 10-1 over DMM. So what? DMT
Yes, yes it is.
DMM, Metolius, they all make amazing products - I use a lot of them myself.
The virtue (and I mean that in a real world sense, not in a karmic I-went-bankrupt-but-so-what-it-was-selling-solar-energy-in-seattle sort of way) is that the company can provide people with good products for less. Metolius and DMM choose to make 'em at home, so they get the business of people who choose to support 'em. Good for them, its a business decision.
So back to my other points, what say you? I certainly can oblige to answer your thoughts, care to respond to mine, or just the ones you have answers for?
PS I luv u
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 6:22 PM
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I didn't see a single question mark in your post.
I'm not picking on BD, nor your Yankee sensibilities or perceived need for a 'cheaper' price.
I take major issue with the entire relentless push to make things appear cheaper by pushing production off shore. The cost will be realized eventually, its just many investors don't care. They get in and out with their quarterly profits and its end of consideration.
Its rather ridiculous to debate the bigger picture of so called free trade, in the context of something so insignificant as a climbing gear mfg. though.
The US won't be going to war over climbing gear, after all.
Its stupid beyond all reckoning for WE, us, the PEOPLE of the U.S., to allow corporations to steal our intellectual property and steal our jobs.
Sooner or later, when the vice grip threatens our supply lines, then the true cost of off-shoring production will be realized.
All Empires seem doomed however, to relearn this lesson after its too late.
DO NOT OVEREXTEND SUPPLY LINES.
Once the production is off shore, continued political, economic and military intervention will be required as well. There's the payback for that cheap assed Walmart shit.
You and I won't likely be paying that bill. But someone's children will be, perhaps yours and mine. Such a debt, to hand a generation an over extended Empire. What will they do???
DMT
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gmggg
Sep 23, 2010, 6:29 PM
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dingus wrote: What will they do??? DMT
Play video games, argue on the internet, go outside, reinvest in new seemingly non-destructive venues, complain that they are ruining everything for the children.
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