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rockdr
Sep 20, 2010, 7:46 PM
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Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA.
I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
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caughtinside
Sep 20, 2010, 7:53 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
100% of BD cams are now Chinalots.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 7:55 PM
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They must have really lowered the bar for doctorates in Rock.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 20, 2010, 7:56 PM
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caughtinside wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... 100% of BD cams are now Chinalots.
100% is a percentage.
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vegastradguy
Sep 20, 2010, 8:14 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
yeah, because no trigger wire on a cam made in the US would ever break for no reason.
BD's China based facility uses the same sources of material that BD used when it made its cams in the US. Unlike most 'Made in China' products, BD's are made by BD in China- the plant is theirs and its operated by BD, not contracted out to an unknown quantity in China. It's also ISO 9001 certified.
This argument about BD being made in China is old at best. Give it a rest.
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MS1
Sep 20, 2010, 8:16 PM
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rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label....
Why do you have against Chinese people?
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billcoe_
Sep 20, 2010, 8:55 PM
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I was unable to discern the difference between a made in China BD and a made in US one. Try it.
Or buy Metolius, still made in Bend, Oregon by itinerant climbers.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Sep 22, 2010, 3:48 AM)
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milesenoell
Sep 20, 2010, 9:00 PM
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MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people?
I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries.
I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control.
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bearbreeder
Sep 20, 2010, 9:20 PM
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damn BD ... ever since they switched to having those damn chinese make their cams ... climbers have been dying left, right and centre
i mean i pull tested a cam with my dog (before he got eaten) ... and Yippie was able to pull it free out of a perfect placement ... course he ran away to chinatown and we found his bones at my favorite chinese restaurant
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MS1
Sep 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
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milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control.
I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones.
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moose_droppings
Sep 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
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Maybe BD could sub out some of the camalot production to CCH.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 21, 2010, 12:21 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: damn BD ... ever since they switched to having those damn chinese make their cams ... climbers have been dying left, right and centre i mean i pull tested a cam with my dog (before he got eaten) ... and Yippie was able to pull it free out of a perfect placement ... course he ran away to chinatown and we found his bones at my favorite chinese restaurant |
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irregularpanda
Sep 21, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: caughtinside wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... 100% of BD cams are now Chinalots. 100% is a percentage.
And yet, there is no such thing as halfway sober.
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rockdr
Sep 22, 2010, 2:23 AM
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Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later...
Ford Explorer - roller overs
Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals
China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys.
Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro?
The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear!
The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America.
In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
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milesenoell
Sep 22, 2010, 2:55 AM
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rockdr wrote: Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later... Ford Explorer - roller overs Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro? The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I don't know if it's intentional or not, but your posts have been coming off as pretty incendiary due to the racist over-tones.
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johnwesely
Sep 22, 2010, 2:56 AM
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rockdr wrote: Couple simple facts - Corporations are interested in making profits and worring about consequences later... Ford Explorer - roller overs Toyota (symbol of quality) - sticking gas pedals China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro? The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I bet they also are in favor of putting fluoride in the water to taint our precious bodily fluids.
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vegastradguy
Sep 22, 2010, 2:57 AM
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rockdr wrote: China has proven not to be able to build safe childrens toys. Do you want to trust china to build your lifesaving climbing pro?
Yeah, because nothing life saving or more complex than a cam is made in china every day.
In reply to: The good old saying "If ain't broken don't fix it" Send BD back their cams to China....keep buy the USA made gear! The guys/gals playing this down must work or are sponsored by BD. If they were real Americans they would want the work to stay in America. In my search for the last USA made BD cams (calling all over) One quote from a distrubitory "The BD factory is completely run by BD employees, pause, Non-asians"... Really....
I wish i was paid by bd, that'd make rent a little easier to make on funemployment. As it is, i just call it like i see it- ive talked extensively with black diamond folks about this and the reality is that unlike your example of toys or even products like apple who contract out their work to chinese firms, bd owns and operates its factory in china.
The other reality is that black diamond can't sell cams that don't meet CE/EN standards, nor could they claim ISO 9001 certification at the chinese facility if it wasn't up to par. Even if they contracted out, the cams still have to meet certain specifications to come to market- which they do.
The us economy has been moving away from being manufacturing based for decades- and in fact is probably no longer a manufacturing based economy, which is a reflection of our growth and maturation as a country. Manufacturing is always going to move away from rich countries and towards poor ones- its simple math.
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milesenoell
Sep 22, 2010, 3:13 AM
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MS1 wrote: milesenoell wrote: MS1 wrote: rockdr wrote: Black Diamond has been producing a precentage of their cams in china. Make sure when you buy that it say Made in the USA. I have a .5 that the triggers broke for no reason (have 2 the other one a few years older and fine) I wonder if I missed a made in china label.... Why do you have against Chinese people? I don't mean to defend this guy's statement, but it is a legitimate gripe that products made in China are not generally held to the quality control standards customary in goods manufactured in wealthier countries. I've been to China and taught workers there to make goods for a US/Canadian market and the hardest part is quality control. I'll take that worry seriously when I see some evidence that Chinese made BD cams are of lower quality than US made ones.
Basically, I was trying to reinterpret rockdr's statement such that is was less offensive and fit with a reality I had experience with (although I now wish I hadn't).
I didn't say the Chinese-made cams would be lower quality, if anything I was saying that the consistency could become suspect, because of potentially different standards for quality control. Climbing gear has such specific standards that I see far less room for differing standards to come into play.
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bearbreeder
Sep 22, 2010, 3:52 AM
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yeah those damn dog eating chinese cant make anything complicated at all ...
i mean iphones, computers, lcds, washing machines, etc ... they're all simple items carved out of bamboo
i want my doggie back 
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skiclimb
Sep 22, 2010, 4:28 AM
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See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product.
F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell.
no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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vegastradguy
Sep 22, 2010, 5:28 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
so...whats an instant whiplash force?
and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
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marc801
Sep 22, 2010, 5:45 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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redlude97
Sep 22, 2010, 6:22 AM
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skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff.
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mattm
Sep 22, 2010, 3:26 PM
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Not that this hasn't been beaten to death FOR YEARS but hell, I haven't chimed in on this one in a while.
I knew a guy (roomate) who worked on some of BDs hardware projects years ago. 2 in particular were the HOTWIRE and Neutrino. Anyway, we were talking cams one day and he mentioned that the SINGLE LARGEST COST of cam productions is the LABOR to ASSEMBLE the cams. He said the pieces of the cam (Lobes, springs etc etc) aren't hard at all to make. It's putting the whole cam together that takes time and $$. He described having to put the pieces in a jig, wind springs add triggers and then finish off the whole thing. Not technically hard, just a PITA.
When BD opened THEIR OWN plant in China this stuff was covered. As stated above, it is a plant OWNED AND OPERATED by BD. This isn't a sub-contracting out. (Apple and Foxcon for example) SLC BD Employees setup the facility and some remain over there supervising. I'm sure there are now BD China employees now as well.
[The next part is pure heresay. I heard that the process actually involved most parts still being made in the US, then shipped over to BD China for assembly and then shipped back. It's actually quite cheap to do and not nearly as environmentally bad as you'd think (boat fuel wise). ]
The quality has not changed one iota. I own at least 6 #1 C4s purchased over many years and the only thing that's noticeably changed over the years is how bright the anodization is on the outer lobes. Claims that BD Chinalots are inferior safety or otherwise are pure tin-hat theory.
RE: USA jobs. IIRC, BD didn't fire ANYONE when they did this. If anything, they hired more people. BD wanted to work on new projects (particularly BC Ski stuff I think) but they were financially limited with how they could task their SLC staff. They moved certain production capabilities over seas to free up US wok force costs for other projects.
Maldaly has a post on here somewhere regarding "asian manufacturing quality". It's about the Ballnutz and how he was approached about making them by a firm in Korea(?).
Look, ANY OVERSEAS manufacturing quality depends greatly on oversight and who you hire to make your product. Walmart has CRAP because they use crap companies to make their stuff. You don't think I know that when I buy the $20 OZARK TRAIL camp stove? I knew ANOTHER guy who was involved in picking sources for another brands Tents and clothing line. He said he was working with one of the big sources over there. (He and about 5 other known brands!). He made the point that it's all about 1) Choosing a quality Source company and 2) Making sure they're sticking to the specs you lay out.
He was working on a tent project at the time and the samples coming back were not good. Turns out one of the women sewing seams hadn't gotten the specs for the new project. She was using specs from another brand. This SPEC was how often you changed out your sewing needles. Other brand had lower standards so the needles got dull, the holes where too big and the seams leaked.
Walmart and Patagonia both source jackets from Vietnam. Do they have the same quality? No. You get he drift.
BD makes quality cams. Period. I buy gear based on a brands ability to produce QUALITY gear, not where it's sourced from.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
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