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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:13 AM
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PTFTW
vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe.
Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay.
You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle.
Now go aiding on hard granite..
use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one.
you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country.
the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight..
rarely is that increased range important.
Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls.
if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys.
they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies..
both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement..
One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength..
which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:30 AM)
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:29 AM
Post #52 of 71
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
No I don't never have. I generally stick with one or two as the decades roll by. Occasionally trying out a few others.
When you have climbed as much serious shit as i have and have never had a serious injury and have never had a partner have a serious injury. then maybe I will consider your opinion seriously.
Actually if you have a good idea and have never climbed in your life i will consider your opinion seriously..but basically anyone who loves BD camashits or tries to defend them has simply made their lack of experince better know to me.. and made the rest of their opinions fairly suspect.
Arrogant bastard??.. Hardly
I'm Arrogant.. you are just a poser.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:32 AM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 6:33 AM
Post #53 of 71
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skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
whats a camashit?
has it occurred to you that every cam on the market works fine if you use it properly and it all comes down to personal preference in the end?
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:37 AM
Post #54 of 71
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. whats a camashit? has it occurred to you that every cam on the market works fine if you use it properly and it all comes down to personal preference in the end?
Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams?
certainly BD Camalots (camashits) are excellent protection within their limitations...
that however is true of a tuft of grass, or a head of frozen moss. or the bumper of my truck or a couple tentpoles stuck in a crack.
And no on the personal preference thing.. some persons are lucky idiots.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:39 AM)
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marc801
Sep 23, 2010, 6:40 AM
Post #55 of 71
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skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge.
A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled.
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Colinhoglund
Sep 23, 2010, 6:40 AM
Post #56 of 71
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners.
Funniest thing I've heard all night, thanks!
On a more serious note. I work at a gear shop and have met several of BD's reps and know a few guides that are their field reps. They have told us about why they have to export their labor. Ignore the cost vs wages thing, there are simply not enough people who want to put cams together 9-5 for a career. (end BD opinion)
(enter my opinion) Same goes for sewing packs and rain jackets. I know one of the last GoreTex seamstresses in Canada, she lost her manufacturing job (she does repairs now and is awesome) because there were not enough workers in her plant to support buying the new machinery found in China. I have one of the last Canadian make Gore jackets, and to be honest; because they have better machinery, the new Chinese ones are better. Flat seams, better tape, less over glue marks etc.
China=better product+lower price, and it's our own fault. We as a society idolized white collar jobs, looking down on any blue collar workers. Therefore the blue collar workers half ass their jobs and are underproductive, thus devaluing their labor. It is a myth that we are sending (north)american jobs overseas as these are not jobs we want anyways. (I have both BD and Metolius gear btw) Thumbs up to Metolius for keeping production in NA, they must have some great employees. But seriously, lets all quit bi%hing about *made in China* unless we want our kids/cozens etc to aspire to be cam assemblers rather than IT managers. (it would be a sweet job in my opinion, but I'm not moving to bend) I'd rather have a hardworking Chinese person make my cams, then some Northamerican engineering dropout who couldn't make the cut designing these things, make them.
This may seem like a cop-out but, 'thats the way it is folks'. I agree buying green/local/fair trade does make a difference. But bashing an entire culture and self righteously thinking we do a better job as northamericans is BS. We don't, people are people; have good management and QC and your good to go regardless of where.
OUT, nough ranting.
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:45 AM
Post #57 of 71
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marc801 wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled.
The design is my MAIN factor in complaining about the Camashit.
However the china situation just makes me more concerned.. China is growing too fast.. because of this their production leads are at times more tempted to take shortcuts in ALL factors of production due to various imput shortages.
this is less common in US manufactured products.
This is why I will not buy Chinese manufactured critical safety items.
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 6:47 AM
Post #58 of 71
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skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams?
youre kidding, right?
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 6:50 AM
Post #59 of 71
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right?
Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above..
Camashit advantages.
Greater expansion range. (not unique)
Greater absolute breaking strenght than most. (not unique)
Ability to be placed passively (not unique)
Camashit disadvantages.
easier real world placement failure. (highest of all cams) (unique)
Much higher wieght. (unique)
For me the disadvantages far outweight the advantages.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 6:53 AM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 23, 2010, 7:28 AM
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skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above..
right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that.
look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment.
i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack.
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skiclimb
Sep 23, 2010, 7:45 AM
Post #61 of 71
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vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above.. right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that. look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment. i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack.
Oh it's not really a hatred.. i'll use one if someone brings one along and I have no other handy alternative.
But i do not trust them as much as most..
IMO one of the best selling cam on the market is about the worst one in marginal placements.
reality is most climbers have not used a wide vairiety of cams repeatedly in a wide variety of circumstances..thus less experienced climbers tend to be conned by the concept of greater range and greater absolute breaking strength.. so they often buy camashits first when they have incomplete racks. .. hey they work so years later they still have em and recall their first cams with affection... while in reality they bought an inferior product due to lack of experience in what matters most in use.
The Camalot is a fairly crappy cam in comparison to many other readily available alternatives.
If i have a hatred for it .. it is basically this.. it perhaps the most popular cam and it is generally the worst cam and most expensive...
My inate sense of fairness just fucking hates shit like that.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 23, 2010, 7:49 AM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 8:21 AM
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skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: Has it occurred to you that every product has limitations and that BD camashits have more than most Cams? youre kidding, right? Nope I think i detailed the limitations pretty well above.. right after i clicked post reply i realized you wouldnt catch the sarcasm. sorry about that. look, you want to debate the limitations of gear with me, thats fine, but quit calling them camashits. thats immature at best and all its doing is making you look like a fool who doesnt know anything about gear, which i suspect may not be the case, but i cant be sure at the moment. i'd love to know where your deep rooted hatred of the camalot comes from- did you have a rash of camalot placement failures or something? seriously- ive only met one or two people that dont care for camalots, which more about cam angle than anything, the rest love them or like them enough for them to be the backbone of their rack. Oh it's not really a hatred.. i'll use one if someone brings one along and I have no other handy alternative. But i do not trust them as much as most.. IMO one of the best selling cam on the market is about the worst one in marginal placements. reality is most climbers have not used a wide vairiety of cams repeatedly in a wide variety of circumstances..thus less experienced climbers tend to be conned by the concept of greater range and greater absolute breaking strength.. so they often buy camashits first when they have incomplete racks. .. hey they work so years later they still have em and recall their first cams with affection... while in reality they bought an inferior product due to lack of experience in what matters most in use. The Camalot is a fairly crappy cam in comparison to many other readily available alternatives. If i have a hatred for it .. it is basically this.. it perhaps the most popular cam and it is generally the worst cam and most expensive...
My inate sense of fairness just fucking hates shit like that.
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 12:22 PM
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The issue for me is patently simple... american labor off shored renders Black Diamond just another corporation.
No different than all the other sell outs. What's the U.S. unemployment % again?
Climbing gear imports should be taxed heavily, around the 50% VAT range.
DMT
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dynosore
Sep 23, 2010, 3:13 PM
Post #64 of 71
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skiclimb wrote: marc801 wrote: skiclimb wrote: PTFTW vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. Go put A camashit in a crack attach a rope to it and start tugging .. do fast tugs with slack to one side or another..odds are pretty good you will be able to pop that cam right out with a little clever ropeplay. You can do this with other cams as well.. but it is generally harder with softer cams that have a lower attack angle. Now go aiding on hard granite.. use a wild country cam placement and use a camashit placement.. you will find that the camashits often skate just a hair when you weight one. you will NEVER (ok almost never) have that happen on a wild country. the main advantage of camashitss is the increase range of expansion..unfortunately that is gained by increased weight.. rarely is that increased range important. Especially if doing multipitch trad or moreso bigwalls. if on a bigwall you will generally have at least a double rack of each range.... the weight of camashits then severely adds up and you are way better off with a double rack of say wildcountrys. they are lighter with a full rack.. they dont skate or skip on you and they are absolutely more secure.. even BD will admit they chose a curve angle less secure than wildcountry and any other single axle design.. furthermore even on bds single axle designs they chose harder metal than most other companies.. both those factors make BD cames less secure in placement.. One thing BD camashits are superior on than most other cams is their absolute breaking strength.. which doesn't matter one goddamn bit when it is falling through the air because it is easier to dislodge. A lot of your opinion about the design, but nothing that has anything to do with where they're assembled. The design is my MAIN factor in complaining about the Camashit. However the china situation just makes me more concerned.. China is growing too fast.. because of this their production leads are at times more tempted to take shortcuts in ALL factors of production due to various imput shortages. this is less common in US manufactured products. This is why I will not buy Chinese manufactured critical safety items.
This is what I was trying to say, I believe you said it more eloquently. Too many firsthand stories from people I trust in industry to pretend it's not a real phenomenom.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 23, 2010, 3:35 PM
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curt wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: TNF and MH are not owned by the same company and neither makes technical hardgoods. BD just got sold last summer because they were out of money. In cases like this, quality and brand mojo usually stay good for 2-3 years. Then the penny-pinchers start weaseling, combined with laxity on QC in china, and nasty things start to happen. BD currently has great marketing, some okay products, and a lot of mediocre products. Innovation left the company a while ago but they are great at borrowing ideas and making people think they created something. In a few years, BD will be a mere shadow of itself selling lots of high-magin items (clothing), hanging onto existing designs that sell well, cutting all the niche products, and pretending to still have decent quality on what they offer. Since you claim the ability to accurately see two to three years into the future, would you mind telling us who will win the 2012 US presidential election. It will save us a lot of time, energy and debate. Thanks. Curt
Screw that, tell me who's going to win the 2012 World Series, Superbowl, and Stanley Cup. Daddy needs a new pair of shoeshouses.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Sep 23, 2010, 3:51 PM
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skiclimb wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: vegastradguy wrote: skiclimb wrote: See my sig.. just another reason not to buy that product. F Chinese made climbing gear all to hell. no fucking way in hell i'm gonna put my life on the line with chinese made stuff. so...whats an instant whiplash force? and really? you dont have a single partner that uses camalots? i find that hard to believe. I don't find it very hard to believe that he doesn't have a lot of partners. No I don't never have. I generally stick with one or two as the decades roll by. Occasionally trying out a few others. When you have climbed as much serious shit as i have and have never had a serious injury and have never had a partner have a serious injury. then maybe I will consider your opinion seriously. Actually if you have a good idea and have never climbed in your life i will consider your opinion seriously..but basically anyone who loves BD camashits or tries to defend them has simply made their lack of experince better know to me.. and made the rest of their opinions fairly suspect. Arrogant bastard??.. Hardly I'm Arrogant.. you are just a poser.
If you're going to try to take my title I'm going to have to insist that you learn how to properly insult someone. That was completely devoid of creativity, wit, or punchline. Any more of these gradeschool jeers and it's the highway for you bub; take it to Mountain Project where such "humor" is appreciated.
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 4:24 PM
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dingus wrote: The issue for me is patently simple... american labor off shored renders Black Diamond just another corporation. No different than all the other sell outs. What's the U.S. unemployment % again? Climbing gear imports should be taxed heavily, around the 50% VAT range. DMT
Right, because BD fired so many employees to start this factory. I mean, people here are just clamoring to get jobs in the textile industry. Its just booming.
Unemployment is now at 10%, thanks to 10 years of horrible politicians, not because middle class Americans are having their jobs 'stolen' by illegal immigrants or outsourced labor to china.
Look, we don't manufacture anymore, and its BECAUSE that line of thinking. Its expensive because each factory needs a union, because of emissions controls, because of OSHA asking us to be safe, all good things to have, but if hippies like Dingus won't pay 100 bucks a pop for a BD cam made by my grandma in Des Moines, certainly Joe Unemployed won't.
Its cheaper and just as good to make it in china if done right, no one's job is being stealered and hardly anybody likes paying premium prices for made in USA gear. Trust me, I've been selling climbing gear for almost 5 years, I sell 10 camalots to 1 metolius/DMM/Wild Country combined.
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 5:04 PM
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'Cheaper' is not a virtue.
I totally believe you that your customers buy camelots 10-1 over DMM. So what?
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 23, 2010, 5:05 PM)
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quiteatingmysteak
Sep 23, 2010, 6:07 PM
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dingus wrote: 'Cheaper' is not a virtue. I totally believe you that your customers buy camelots 10-1 over DMM. So what? DMT
Yes, yes it is.
DMM, Metolius, they all make amazing products - I use a lot of them myself.
The virtue (and I mean that in a real world sense, not in a karmic I-went-bankrupt-but-so-what-it-was-selling-solar-energy-in-seattle sort of way) is that the company can provide people with good products for less. Metolius and DMM choose to make 'em at home, so they get the business of people who choose to support 'em. Good for them, its a business decision.
So back to my other points, what say you? I certainly can oblige to answer your thoughts, care to respond to mine, or just the ones you have answers for?
PS I luv u
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dingus
Sep 23, 2010, 6:22 PM
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I didn't see a single question mark in your post.
I'm not picking on BD, nor your Yankee sensibilities or perceived need for a 'cheaper' price.
I take major issue with the entire relentless push to make things appear cheaper by pushing production off shore. The cost will be realized eventually, its just many investors don't care. They get in and out with their quarterly profits and its end of consideration.
Its rather ridiculous to debate the bigger picture of so called free trade, in the context of something so insignificant as a climbing gear mfg. though.
The US won't be going to war over climbing gear, after all.
Its stupid beyond all reckoning for WE, us, the PEOPLE of the U.S., to allow corporations to steal our intellectual property and steal our jobs.
Sooner or later, when the vice grip threatens our supply lines, then the true cost of off-shoring production will be realized.
All Empires seem doomed however, to relearn this lesson after its too late.
DO NOT OVEREXTEND SUPPLY LINES.
Once the production is off shore, continued political, economic and military intervention will be required as well. There's the payback for that cheap assed Walmart shit.
You and I won't likely be paying that bill. But someone's children will be, perhaps yours and mine. Such a debt, to hand a generation an over extended Empire. What will they do???
DMT
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gmggg
Sep 23, 2010, 6:29 PM
Post #71 of 71
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Registered: Jun 25, 2009
Posts: 2099
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dingus wrote: What will they do??? DMT
Play video games, argue on the internet, go outside, reinvest in new seemingly non-destructive venues, complain that they are ruining everything for the children.
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