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marc801
Oct 4, 2010, 1:55 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: ...I still won't stick clip because I think its stupid I'm a stubborn jackass.
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jakedatc
Oct 4, 2010, 2:04 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: camhead wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Most worthless piece of gear in general: stick clip. Sigh. Burnsie, you don't know what you're talking about. I have a regularly use a stickclip. And I don't think we need to debate about my trad/soloing/r/x/headspace abilities, either, so don't even go there. then why use it? Why place gear? feels a lot different to me. generally speaking, if I don't feel comfortable putting in that first piece because of its location (or in this case, clipping the first draw) then I will very likely not lead it. I totally get and understand the first bolt being high for the second bolt concept, but I'd still rather either walk away or clip the first bolt as I climb. Why would you let a question of style keep you from climbing a good route? He has quite a long list of reasons why he won't try hard...ever. among others are too hot, too cold, too scared, too hard, too steep, too crimpy, too slopey,.......... yeah, yeah Jake you climb hard. we know how hard you climb. you climb FUCKING HARD. but knowing how hard of a climber you are, how big your sack is, and how little I am compared to you, I still won't stick clip because I think its stupid.
I didn't say CLIMB hard.. i said TRY hard. I don't give a flying fuck if someone climbs 5.8 or 5.13+ but give an honest effort.
you will be missing 3 star routes at the Red if you don't have a stick clip.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 4, 2010, 2:31 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: camhead wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Most worthless piece of gear in general: stick clip. Sigh. Burnsie, you don't know what you're talking about. I have a regularly use a stickclip. And I don't think we need to debate about my trad/soloing/r/x/headspace abilities, either, so don't even go there. then why use it? Why place gear? feels a lot different to me. generally speaking, if I don't feel comfortable putting in that first piece because of its location (or in this case, clipping the first draw) then I will very likely not lead it. I totally get and understand the first bolt being high for the second bolt concept, but I'd still rather either walk away or clip the first bolt as I climb. Why would you let a question of style keep you from climbing a good route? He has quite a long list of reasons why he won't try hard...ever. among others are too hot, too cold, too scared, too hard, too steep, too crimpy, too slopey,.......... yeah, yeah Jake you climb hard. we know how hard you climb. you climb FUCKING HARD. but knowing how hard of a climber you are, how big your sack is, and how little I am compared to you, I still won't stick clip because I think its stupid. I didn't say CLIMB hard.. i said TRY hard. I don't give a flying fuck if someone climbs 5.8 or 5.13+ but give an honest effort. you will be missing 3 star routes at the Red if you don't have a stick clip.
FYI - you've climbed with me ONCE, and that was a shitty, cold, rainy weekend this past spring when NO ONE wanted to be there. As a group of four we did, what, five climbs the entire weekend? Yeah, that's a good representation of me pushing my limits.
I hear there are thousands of climbs in the Red. I'm sure I'll find more than enough 3-star climbs to enjoy myself.
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MS1
Oct 4, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: hafilax wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: camhead wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Most worthless piece of gear in general: stick clip. Sigh. Burnsie, you don't know what you're talking about. I have a regularly use a stickclip. And I don't think we need to debate about my trad/soloing/r/x/headspace abilities, either, so don't even go there. then why use it? Why place gear? feels a lot different to me. generally speaking, if I don't feel comfortable putting in that first piece because of its location (or in this case, clipping the first draw) then I will very likely not lead it. I totally get and understand the first bolt being high for the second bolt concept, but I'd still rather either walk away or clip the first bolt as I climb. Why would you let a question of style keep you from climbing a good route? He has quite a long list of reasons why he won't try hard...ever. among others are too hot, too cold, too scared, too hard, too steep, too crimpy, too slopey,.......... yeah, yeah Jake you climb hard. we know how hard you climb. you climb FUCKING HARD. but knowing how hard of a climber you are, how big your sack is, and how little I am compared to you, I still won't stick clip because I think its stupid. I didn't say CLIMB hard.. i said TRY hard. I don't give a flying fuck if someone climbs 5.8 or 5.13+ but give an honest effort. you will be missing 3 star routes at the Red if you don't have a stick clip. FYI - you've climbed with me ONCE, and that was a shitty, cold, rainy weekend this past spring when NO ONE wanted to be there. As a group of four we did, what, five climbs the entire weekend? Yeah, that's a good representation of me pushing my limits. I hear there are thousands of climbs in the Red. I'm sure I'll find more than enough 3-star climbs to enjoy myself.
On a good number of Red classics, the technical crux is getting to the first bolt. So you might find it hard to push your limits without stick-clipping.
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rangerrob
Oct 4, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #56 of 225
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I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary.
I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms.
The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference?
Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control.
RR
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kachoong
Oct 4, 2010, 4:27 PM
Post #57 of 225
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Oh, by far the grappling hook. So many cons! Those bloody things keep snagging shit all the time, claw at the back of my knees. They really do cause some panic when I have all the sizes slung on one side of my harness; I'm always reaching down and adjusting them. They don't always catch the first time, gouging holes in my forehead when I don't grab for them properly on their way back down. You can't put them in your carry-on luggage. Also, the red size for some reason doesn't sit tight when oriented for a sideways pull... walks all over the fucking place! Damn grappling hooks suck!
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 4, 2010, 4:33 PM
Post #58 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference?
That's because you don't understand sport climbing.
In reply to: It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control.
Oh wait, yes you do. Nevermind 
Josh
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jakedatc
Oct 4, 2010, 4:35 PM
Post #59 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR
so.. because a type of rock doesn't take gear it is absurd. good. thanks for that contrived and ridiculous point of view. you should probably just not say anything.
Sport climbing should not be bolted dangerously, ever. Which conflicts with your statement about stick clipping because having the first bolt clipped keeps you off the deck if the landing sucks. having a bolt lower would not solve the problem 
Sport climbing you either can pull a move or you can't clipping the bolts is a secondary activity like tying your shoes.
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dm
Oct 4, 2010, 5:17 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic...
if he really did he'd also skip the rap bolts. Accepting one aspect of the sport climbing game (rap bolting for safety) but not the other (bolting it with a stick clip in mind for the very same reason) is about as bright as driving around in a Lexus with brake lines cut. But then again, whatever floats his goat.
(This post was edited by dm on Oct 4, 2010, 6:42 PM)
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devkrev
Oct 4, 2010, 5:21 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR
Yeah, I would definitely say trying to bring trad climbing ethics to a sport crag is not very useful.
Kind of like a stick-clip at a trad crag.
dev
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rangerrob
Oct 4, 2010, 11:32 PM
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Exactly Dev, which is why I don't. And for the record i didn't say that just because a piece of rock doesn't take gear well that it is absurd to climb it. I said the fundamental idea of sport climbing to me, is absurd. You just took it personally that's all jake. Besides, every sport route could be led on trad gear, just with varying amounts of risk. When you bolt it you're just altering it to fit the level of safety you are comfortable with.
Back to the argument......the smallest tricam is pretty damned worthless, as is the biggest tricam.
RR
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Gmburns2000
Oct 4, 2010, 11:46 PM
Post #63 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR
quoted just because it is well said, and to remind people once again that the question was, in fact, posted in the trad forum.
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petsfed
Oct 5, 2010, 12:28 AM
Post #64 of 225
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shoo wrote: Before his devolves into another "I love/hate tricame" thread, let me get it over with and say shut up, you're wrong.
But how else will I get an erection?
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jakedatc
Oct 5, 2010, 12:36 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR quoted just because it is well said, and to remind people once again that the question was, in fact, posted in the trad forum.
Then WHY did you put : stick clip
gumbie
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jakedatc
Oct 5, 2010, 12:38 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Exactly Dev, which is why I don't. And for the record i didn't say that just because a piece of rock doesn't take gear well that it is absurd to climb it. I said the fundamental idea of sport climbing to me, is absurd. You just took it personally that's all jake. Besides, every sport route could be led on trad gear, just with varying amounts of risk. When you bolt it you're just altering it to fit the level of safety you are comfortable with. Back to the argument......the smallest tricam is pretty damned worthless, as is the biggest tricam. RR
aka free solo or taped on hooks on terrain at your limit.. yea.. totally not absurd. you an KN could be good fuck buddies.
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dr_feelgood
Oct 5, 2010, 12:48 AM
Post #67 of 225
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bearbreeder wrote: tricams r awwwsum ... i place them on every moderate climb in squamish/rockies ... they work great as a second set of nuts/cams and r much lighter to boot for alpine you can just bring em instead of cams since they also work in lightly iced cracks useless??? ... everything is useless till nothing else will fit ... lol
Did you finally finish that GED program?
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dr_feelgood
Oct 5, 2010, 1:05 AM
Post #68 of 225
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kachoong wrote: Oh, by far the grappling hook. So many cons! Those bloody things keep snagging shit all the time, claw at the back of my knees. They really do cause some panic when I have all the sizes slung on one side of my harness; I'm always reaching down and adjusting them. They don't always catch the first time, gouging holes in my forehead when I don't grab for them properly on their way back down. You can't put them in your carry-on luggage. Also, the red size for some reason doesn't sit tight when oriented for a sideways pull... walks all over the fucking place! Damn grappling hooks suck!
Fucking n00b. You need a grappling hook with retractable teeth. That way it does not hit you in the leg, head, or carry-on baggage.
Most useful piece of gear ever, imo.
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jt512
Oct 5, 2010, 1:20 AM
Post #69 of 225
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Most worthless piece of gear? The Rock Exotica BiWire Carabiner:
Honorable mention: The Black Diamond ATC–n00b:
Jay
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quiteatingmysteak
Oct 5, 2010, 7:23 AM
Post #71 of 225
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rangerrob wrote: I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. ... I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms.
Sport climbing tactics and ethics in the same post... rad!
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devkrev
Oct 5, 2010, 7:49 AM
Post #72 of 225
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dr_feelgood wrote: kachoong wrote: Oh, by far the grappling hook. So many cons! Those bloody things keep snagging shit all the time, claw at the back of my knees. They really do cause some panic when I have all the sizes slung on one side of my harness; I'm always reaching down and adjusting them. They don't always catch the first time, gouging holes in my forehead when I don't grab for them properly on their way back down. You can't put them in your carry-on luggage. Also, the red size for some reason doesn't sit tight when oriented for a sideways pull... walks all over the fucking place! Damn grappling hooks suck! Fucking n00b. You need a grappling hook with retractable teeth. That way it does not hit you in the leg, head, or carry-on baggage. Most useful piece of gear ever, imo. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Dr_feelgood/P1000652.jpg[/IMG]
jeez, are you guys freakin' ninjas or something?
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Gmburns2000
Oct 5, 2010, 11:56 AM
Post #74 of 225
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR quoted just because it is well said, and to remind people once again that the question was, in fact, posted in the trad forum. Then WHY did you put : stick clip gumbie
because it's worthless
idiot.
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carabiner96
Oct 5, 2010, 1:13 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I've done Flyin' Hawaiin at Rumney, and I don't remember ever owning a stick clip. It's not impossible. I agree with anti stick clip guy on this one. He values his ethic that he needs to be able to confidently climb the entire route without the aid of an artificial long arm. It's sort of arbitrary, because the bolts are more or less arbitrarily placed, so the danger is arbitrary. I would use a stick clip if I felt I needed it, but I would admire someone much more who climbed routes that they were comfortable with on their own terms. The whole concept of a stick clip, and sport climbing in general is kind of absurd. You are manufacturing a route with whatever degree of danger you want to have in it. If it's okay to stick clip the first bolt, why not stick clip the second, or third? Why not leave the rope hanging from all but the chains? What's the difference? Aside from bolting on the lead, why would someone intentionally make a sport route dangerous to lead? That's what i don't get about sport climbing. When you're placing gear you are either good enough to place the gear or you're not. With a sport climb you can easily make the route safer by just adding a lower bolt, and spacing them closer together. It's a joke, a farce...something that is there for pure entertainment. Not something to REALLY push the limits of what you yourself find as acceptable risk, and how close you can push yourself to the edge while still being in control. RR quoted just because it is well said, and to remind people once again that the question was, in fact, posted in the trad forum. Then WHY did you put : stick clip gumbie because it's worthless idiot.
Aww. Young love.
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), but there are a lot of routes that you would be stupid to not stick clip them. If you don't believe me, go do Flying Hawaiian at Rumney without stick clipping and report back to me. 
