[quote "rtwilli4"]My instinct was to put in an Orange TCU and my instinct was right. I'm not sure that I was drawing any conclusions. It was just a simple event in which was pumped, needed to get a piece of pro in fast, and did. What's wrong with gaining confidence from that?

I didn't just walk away thinking "OK, I have good instincts so now I can just go climb anything!" [/quote]

I think that it is a major distinction between trad and sport.

When you have a bolt, you just clip it as you are pump and go for the top.

when you climb on gear, you have to evaluate the risk of a fall. If the TCU don't hold, where are you going to fall? Inconsciously, you know that a 20 feet run out with chance of hitting a ledge is dangerous and your body will react to that. Or, as many sport climber, you will be overconfident on your pro and the chance to be injure will be greater.

When should we evaluate the risk of a fall and where to protect. Some climber are instinctive and don't have any method. Some climber are less instinctive and use method like the fall factor. Both work well and gave, surprisingly, the same result: a climber move from one rest place to an other. at the rest place, they choose where to place the pro. A climber can make a move, place a pro and come back to the rest place. or he can down climb.

The major point is that the climber know the maximal distance between two protection and the minimal distance. After that he decide where he can place a pro and the size of the pro.

As you said: "not thinking about the size 'cuz I was so pumped", I think that you was sport climbing and you were lucky that the tcu was good. It is a situation that trad climber are afraid of when they make mistake. The climber are not the master of the climb, but he use last minute decision without knowing the consequences of them.

You use the E system? Do you live in Britain?


BTW, I really hate that damn klown but it's entirely possible that he has a little more experience then you in leading hard(ish) trad... And let's not forget that he did onsite thewwarmup/$20hooker and downgraded it.

What was the point of this thread again?.

People who want to stroke their ego have an excuse to post what grade they climb.

It is totally conceivable that your grades would be the same if you took that mindset. Gear placements can be learned so that they are as automatic as clipping a draw.

I agree with this totally, I find that when I look at a potential placement for gear the image of the piece that will fit pops into my head including colour and shape, so I don't really have to think about what may or may not fit... I just reach for the appropriate piece, whack it in, clip and go, then forget about it unless I'm aware of it being dodgy... that's a whole other can of worms :)

Cheers

Adam

But the very fact that you had to think about it, even for a split second is time lost over clipping a bolt. Add that over multiple placements and it is extra time that requires extra physical condition. On top of that, unless you have a photographic memory or are extremely good, you will have to look carefully at your gear and make sure you are picking out the right piece. In sport, i don't have to look at what quick draw i choose.. their all for the most part the same.

Sorry for being picky, but these feel like important details to me that you are overlooking (maybe?).

But the very fact that you had to think about it, even for a split second is time lost over clipping a bolt. Add that over multiple placements and it is extra time that requires extra physical condition. On top of that, unless you have a photographic memory or are extremely good, you will have to look carefully at your gear and make sure you are picking out the right piece. In sport, i don't have to look at what quick draw i choose.. their all for the most part the same.

Sorry for being picky, but these feel like important details to me that you are overlooking (maybe?).

My point was more about the mindset between trad and sport. Most people, when climbing on gear are not projecting. On the onsite attempt, placing gear is harder. But while projecting a route, you are learning. In sport, it is all about the moves and where to clip from. In trad (and I use the term loosely here), you are learning the moves, where to place and what gear you need. If you take the projecting approach, then sport and trad would be no different. This would not apply to ALL routes, but probably a majority of them.

Josh

But the very fact that you had to think about it, even for a split second is time lost over clipping a bolt. Add that over multiple placements and it is extra time that requires extra physical condition. On top of that, unless you have a photographic memory or are extremely good, you will have to look carefully at your gear and make sure you are picking out the right piece. In sport, i don't have to look at what quick draw i choose.. their all for the most part the same.

Sorry for being picky, but these feel like important details to me that you are overlooking (maybe?).

I don't think they are over looking those details, but the fact is those details are meaningless to the route rating. The issues that you are bringing up are specific to the climber not the route. The route, which must have a general rating cannot take into account individual climbers difficulty with finding the correct piece and getting pumped out. The route is how difficult it is to pull the crux move independent of placing pro, clipping bolts, or hang doggin’ on TR. As others have said 10b is 10b (at least at the same climbing area). However, a route that is 10b may feel like an 11b to one climber due inefficient gear placement. Once one becomes a trad superstar and can place gear without a seconds thought and in the most efficient way so as to reduce strain, then a 10b trad will be difficult to distinguish from a 10b sport or 10b TR

I don't think they are over looking those details, but the fact is those details are meaningless to the route rating. The issues that you are bringing up are specific to the climber not the route. The route, which must have a general rating cannot take into account individual climbers difficulty with finding the correct piece and getting pumped out. The route is how difficult it is to pull the crux move independent of placing pro, clipping bolts, or hang doggin’ on TR. As others have said 10b is 10b (at least at the same climbing area). However, a route that is 10b may feel like an 11b to one climber due inefficient gear placement. Once one becomes a trad superstar and can place gear without a seconds thought and in the most efficient way so as to reduce strain, then a 10b trad will be difficult to distinguish from a 10b sport or 10b TR

For the 3rd time maybe.. i never said a 10b was not a 10b. The op was asking if others had a gap between their sport/trad.

Unless the 10b just happens to be very easy for you making it impossible to distinguish difficulty between the styles, i don't know how you can say it will feel the same on TR or in sport/trad.. it is not possible. Most people here are talking about their upper limit of performance, it is just not plausible to top rope something at your absolute limit then expect to lead it on trad (or even sport) the next time. In my own experience it is within 10 attempts after that where i am able to sport lead my top rope limit, the difference is route specific endurance for the edded time spent clipping and efficiency of the clipping position's, not the moves themselves. As for trad i don't know.. i suspect at the very least it will be the same.

If none of this made any difference, why are most of the hardest routes i have seen get sent have the quick draws pre placed before a serious attempt?. If anything the excuse of ''its more convenient to leave them their'' is just a subconscious (or maybe conscious) choice to reduce the physical toll and increase chance of success. Maybe those people see placing quick draws as a waste of ENERGY?. Or maybe im mistaken, and after that send they go back and climb the route with ought pre placing quick draws?.

That mentality is not accepted or does not appear to be in trad. People don't ''pre place'' and then send a hard single pitch. It is a blatant difference.

I hear what you are saying about those who are really good at placing gear. But i am still not convinced the best trad climber in the world could place gear as fast as i can clip a bolt, at least on a regular basis up a 20-30m route.

THE RATING OF A ROUTE IS BASED ON THE SINGLE HARDEST MOVE OR SEQUENCE.

Uh... It is?

It isn't?

In most areas it isn't.

Of all the areas I have visited and grading systems I have been exposed to, I personally couldn't say if it was most or less than 50%, but I also would most certainly disagree with joeforte's assertion.
As ceebo already mentioned, the E or "british trad" system is definitely based on more than just the "hardest move", as is the Saxon (Sächsische) system.