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sungam
May 31, 2011, 10:01 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: hafilax wrote: joeforte wrote: sungam wrote: joeforte wrote: THE RATING OF A ROUTE IS BASED ON THE SINGLE HARDEST MOVE OR SEQUENCE. Uh... It is? It isn't? In most areas it isn't. Of all the areas I have visited and grading systems I have been exposed to, I personally couldn't say if it was most or less than 50%, but I also would most certainly disagree with joeforte's assertion. As ceebo already mentioned, the E or "british trad" system is definitely based on more than just the "hardest move", as is the Saxon (Sächsische) system.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2011, 10:15 PM
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you. Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b. Oh i'm sorry, are we talking about the kinda grades where everything is a jug?. Your talking out your arse m8, the hardest route ive lead climbed was JUST done.. with nothing left in me. Not a fucking chance would i have had the energy to piss around placing gear in comparison, even if that gear was pre quick draw'd. Your the one going off on a rant thinking i said the grades themselves were the same.. you just don't get it. Maybe you are confusing route difficulty with other skills such as efficiency, pacing and quick and relaxed gear placements. More than once I have taken several lead falls on my first attempt on something near my limit. Looked at the sequences, figured out what I did wrong, pulled the rope, cleaned the gear and sent second or third try. Both sport and trad. As a self admitted new trad climber, you probably haven't refined some of those skills where you can get your gear in quickly without burning yourself up. It took me years to refine them, and I'm still working on it. Again, i am not the one who confused the actual graded route difficulty (the moves). And, just because i am ''new'' to trad climbing it does not mean that i cant connect the dots and realise trying to clip a bolt from a difficult position is going to be even worse if the same move required placing gear. It is completely logical and i do not see why you argue otherwise?.. 5 seconds is longer than 3 right?.. or does extra time spent (even if only 1 second per placement over a bolt clip) not relate to endurance condition?, will it have no effect at all?. You mocked me earlier about lets use S.10d or T.10d.. but you barely even realise how true that is. We already have the E system for are trad climbing (the grade is given for TRAD alone, well.. and walking o0). Why? because the demands are different, and not just from a danger point of view. Im not even trying to argue that trad is the best or any of that shit, just stating theirs a clear difference to climb the exact same route in all the styles.
Well there is a difference between S.10d and T.10d, and that difference is the skills of the climber. T requires a huge set of skills that sport does not, especially at the 5.10 grades. If you don't possess those T skills, the T.10d is going to feel very hard. If you do possess those skills, it will probably feel about the same. ie, .10d.
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ceebo
Jun 1, 2011, 12:07 AM
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joeforte wrote: ceebo wrote: evon wrote: ceebo wrote: ajkclay wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: It is totally conceivable that your grades would be the same if you took that mindset. Gear placements can be learned so that they are as automatic as clipping a draw. I agree with this totally, I find that when I look at a potential placement for gear the image of the piece that will fit pops into my head including colour and shape, so I don't really have to think about what may or may not fit... I just reach for the appropriate piece, whack it in, clip and go, then forget about it unless I'm aware of it being dodgy... that's a whole other can of worms :) Cheers Adam But the very fact that you had to think about it, even for a split second is time lost over clipping a bolt. Add that over multiple placements and it is extra time that requires extra physical condition. On top of that, unless you have a photographic memory or are extremely good, you will have to look carefully at your gear and make sure you are picking out the right piece. In sport, i don't have to look at what quick draw i choose.. their all for the most part the same. Sorry for being picky, but these feel like important details to me that you are overlooking (maybe?). I don't think they are over looking those details, but the fact is those details are meaningless to the route rating. The issues that you are bringing up are specific to the climber not the route. The route, which must have a general rating cannot take into account individual climbers difficulty with finding the correct piece and getting pumped out. The route is how difficult it is to pull the crux move independent of placing pro, clipping bolts, or hang doggin’ on TR. As others have said 10b is 10b (at least at the same climbing area). However, a route that is 10b may feel like an 11b to one climber due inefficient gear placement. Once one becomes a trad superstar and can place gear without a seconds thought and in the most efficient way so as to reduce strain, then a 10b trad will be difficult to distinguish from a 10b sport or 10b TR For the 3rd time maybe.. i never said a 10b was not a 10b. The op was asking if others had a gap between their sport/trad. Unless the 10b just happens to be very easy for you making it impossible to distinguish difficulty between the styles, i don't know how you can say it will feel the same on TR or in sport/trad.. it is not possible. Most people here are talking about their upper limit of performance, it is just not plausible to top rope something at your absolute limit then expect to lead it on trad (or even sport) the next time. In my own experience it is within 10 attempts after that where i am able to sport lead my top rope limit, the difference is route specific endurance for the edded time spent clipping and efficiency of the clipping position's, not the moves themselves. As for trad i don't know.. i suspect at the very least it will be the same. If none of this made any difference, why are most of the hardest routes i have seen get sent have the quick draws pre placed before a serious attempt?. If anything the excuse of ''its more convenient to leave them their'' is just a subconscious (or maybe conscious) choice to reduce the physical toll and increase chance of success. Maybe those people see placing quick draws as a waste of ENERGY?. Or maybe im mistaken, and after that send they go back and climb the route with ought pre placing quick draws?. That mentality is not accepted or does not appear to be in trad. People don't ''pre place'' and then send a hard single pitch. It is a blatant difference. I hear what you are saying about those who are really good at placing gear. But i am still not convinced the best trad climber in the world could place gear as fast as i can clip a bolt, at least on a regular basis up a 20-30m route. . Routes are not graded on their "endurance factor". Ratings do not take into account the amount of time needed to clip bolts of place gear. THE RATING OF A ROUTE IS BASED ON THE SINGLE HARDEST MOVE OR SEQUENCE. It does not matter what you do during the rest of the climb. Sure, if you have great endurance, it will make doing a route on gear easier, because you have to take the time to place it, but it does not change the difficulty of the SINGLE HARDEST MOVE. Therefore, any "gap" in your sport vs. trad is either mental or endurance based (depending on the route). It is YOUR GAP, and has nothing to do with the difficulty of the SINGLE HARDEST MOVE.
First you start off with arguing against points that i never at any point made.. and then you finish with fully agreeing with what i have been talking about.
The endurance demands are differant.. and as you said (and as i said) that is why ''most'' will never truely have are TR/lead/trad levels the same (since we have lots of room in the grades to improve still). If you start off with TR at f7a and trad at f6c.. and then do nothing but trad (excuse the sport grades, just to make it simple). By the time you get your trad to f7a.. both are the same right?.. no?. It is likely you will then be able to ''physically'' top rope F7a+. This is not bouldering.. the major factor in big climbs is endurance. Less time placing and more time climbing = you finish the route quicker = less endurance needed = TR will be easier = you will climb harder on TR = ffs im done here, do you fucking get it yet?.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 1, 2011, 12:11 AM)
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guangzhou
Jun 1, 2011, 12:33 AM
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Well, my trad climbing climbing and sport climbing are two to three letters apart on most routes.
Unlike most on this forum, I tend to climb better on lead than on top-rope. Probably because I rarely top-rope.
My partner often snicker when they see me top-rope for the first time. I'm a horrible top-rope climber. (Seconding too)
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ceebo
Jun 1, 2011, 4:46 PM
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cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO
No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse.
I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;].
(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 1, 2011, 4:52 PM)
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cracklover
Jun 1, 2011, 5:27 PM
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ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;].
Me need some excuse? You're nuts. I, along with all the other experienced climbers in this thread who have only a letter or two difference already know the truth. It's you who are looking for excuses for why you can't climb trad worth a damn. You are confused about how we are able to do what we do, but rather than being humble and asking how we do it, you deny the possibility of such a thing. Totally lame.
GO
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hafilax
Jun 1, 2011, 5:52 PM
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It is a big assumption but let's presume that sport and gear climbing grades are in some way comparable.
The hardest sport climbs are what 15b? Hardest gear climbs 14b/c? Looking at Sonnie Trotter's tick list, his hardest sport grade is 14c and if Cobra Crack or one of his other 14 gear climbs is 14c then he has no gap.
For hard headpoints, the gear is racked in order and with Rodden's breakaway duct-tape technique there is very little time between getting the gear off the harness and into the placement. Meltdown had 8 pieces and all were small cams or nuts so there's not a lot of weight there.
What accounts for the almost full number grade difference then? Does the fact that a route can take gear preclude the climbing from being that difficult? Is it possible for a gear climb to be as sustained as the hard sport routes seem to be? Are the people capable of climbing 15b sport also looking for and capable of climbing 15b gear lines? Is it possible to have a series of difficult boulder problems separated by good enough rests with good gear next to them yet difficult enough to warrant raising the total grade of the climb?
I think that the stars would really have to align in order to produce a pure gear climb that has a high grade and the right person comes along to work it. The ability to place a bolt anywhere means that the potential to find a hard line is that much higher.
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justroberto
Jun 1, 2011, 6:51 PM
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ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;].
You're making a couple of false assumptions, mainly that the speed in which you make any individual gear placement or clip a bolt necessarily has a direct correlation with how hard you can climb, which it doesn't. There are myriad factors on every single climb, no matter how it's protected, and you can't say that solely by dint of placing protection you're making the climb harder. For every example you give of the crux being placing gear at a difficult section, there's a counter-example of cruising easier ground, placing gear at a good stance before the crux, and then cruising easier ground above.
People climb easier on gear routes out of fear and mistrust of their placements. They stop at the most difficult sections and place too much gear because of this. It's inefficient climbing, not more technically difficult climbing. Once you lose that fear and gain trust through experience, there should really be no gap.
If you went by the guidebooks, I've got a one or two letter difference in my sport and gear leads. Since the grades at the place I usually climb gear routes these days tends to be at least one or two letters harder than most of the equivalently graded local limestone sport areas, I consider that to be pretty dead even.
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sungam
Jun 1, 2011, 7:22 PM
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Where is Angry when you need him? I'm under the strong impression that his hardest trad send is 13a but his hardest sport is 12c.
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ceebo
Jun 1, 2011, 7:51 PM
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cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;]. Me need some excuse? You're nuts. I, along with all the other experienced climbers in this thread who have only a letter or two difference already know the truth. It's you who are looking for excuses for why you can't climb trad worth a damn. You are confused about how we are able to do what we do, but rather than being humble and asking how we do it, you deny the possibility of such a thing. Totally lame. GO
It is a difference none the less. If you are the experienced trad climber you claim to be.. then fear and quick placements + efficient placing is of no issue to you. What else is left to explain the gap?.
As for me and trad, i have no illusion of my standard.. nor do i care how low or high it should be. Only reason i done some trad is because i have no other choice.. we have limited bolted options. This is not a personal gripe over my low trad grade, i have no intent of pushing my trad anywhere near my sport grade either.. E8 is not a joke.
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
Interestingly, most routes i have seen vids of in america seem far safer in terms of available protection, regardless of difficulty. Not saying that in a bad way.. as having choice of places to place gear from has to help, both mentally and physically.
In light of that it seems very odd to me why your country bolts so many routes yet mine does not.. surely that should be the other way around.
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caughtinside
Jun 1, 2011, 7:59 PM
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ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;]. Me need some excuse? You're nuts. I, along with all the other experienced climbers in this thread who have only a letter or two difference already know the truth. It's you who are looking for excuses for why you can't climb trad worth a damn. You are confused about how we are able to do what we do, but rather than being humble and asking how we do it, you deny the possibility of such a thing. Totally lame. GO It is a difference none the less. If you are the experienced trad climber you claim to be.. then fear and quick placements + efficient placing is of no issue to you. What else is left to explain the gap?. As for me and trad, i have no illusion of my standard.. nor do i care how low or high it should be. Only reason i done some trad is because i have no other choice.. we have limited bolted options. This is not a personal gripe over my low trad grade, i have no intent of pushing my trad anywhere near my sport grade either.. E8 is not a joke. http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Interestingly, most routes i have seen vids of in america seem far safer in terms of available protection, regardless of difficulty. Not saying that in a bad way.. as having choice of places to place gear from has to help, both mentally and physically. In light of that it seems very odd to me why your country bolts so many routes yet mine does not.. surely that should be the other way around.
We got way more rock than you guys and often times it is more than 50 feet tall, that's why.
E8 is no joke that is true, but there are plenty of .12 trad climbs out here that are safe if you have the skills.
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wmfork
Jun 1, 2011, 8:21 PM
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sungam wrote: Where is Angry when you need him? I'm under the strong impression that his hardest trad send is 13a but his hardest sport is 12c. |
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sungam
Jun 1, 2011, 8:27 PM
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wmfork wrote: sungam wrote: Where is Angry when you need him? I'm under the strong impression that his hardest trad send is 13a but his hardest sport is 12c. That was before his Bermuda adventure. It hasn't been repeated (enough), but he supposedly FAed a 13+ sport. Regardless, he's sent 13a sport in the states.
Is that the route that there was a vid of, in the cave?
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wmfork
Jun 1, 2011, 8:49 PM
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sungam wrote: I feared as much. Is that the route that there was a vid of, in the cave?
And that brings the point often missed. At least in the grade levels of mere mortals, sport routes and gear routes tend to differ in style greatly. Angry was a good crack climber, so he can jam his way up a 13a crack, but he used to flail on similarly overhung 13a with face holds. Doesn't mean if somebody bolted WTOK, he would've had a harder time on it.
But if you start looking at the movements of 5.14s (Justin's route not withstanding, as it probably requires pretty specialized techniques not all strong sport climbers can learn quickly), whether it's bolted or accepts gear, you gotta be strong, period.
(This post was edited by wmfork on Jun 1, 2011, 8:56 PM)
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cracklover
Jun 1, 2011, 8:58 PM
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ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;]. Me need some excuse? You're nuts. I, along with all the other experienced climbers in this thread who have only a letter or two difference already know the truth. It's you who are looking for excuses for why you can't climb trad worth a damn. You are confused about how we are able to do what we do, but rather than being humble and asking how we do it, you deny the possibility of such a thing. Totally lame. GO It is a difference none the less. If you are the experienced trad climber you claim to be.. then fear and quick placements + efficient placing is of no issue to you. What else is left to explain the gap?.
For me? Nothing. My hardest trad and sport onsight are the same grade.
In many areas, the sport routes are a little inflated, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see experienced climbers with a letter or two gap.
In reply to: As for me and trad, i have no illusion of my standard.. nor do i care how low or high it should be. Only reason i done some trad is because i have no other choice.. we have limited bolted options. This is not a personal gripe over my low trad grade, i have no intent of pushing my trad anywhere near my sport grade either.. E8 is not a joke.
Nor did I say you should push your trad grade. However, since you suck at trad climbing, and have little to no interest in it, what you should not do is insist that you know better than people who are proficient at it.
I'm a shitty boulderer. If I went around spewing arguments about how your bouldering grade should relate to your route-climbing grade in such-and-such a way, and exactly why, based on the length of the climb and the pure difficulty of each move and blah blah blah, I would sound equally moronic as you. If, upon being confronted with the fact that I was wrong, I persisted in my argument, I would be as moronic as you.
In reply to: Interestingly, most routes i have seen vids of in america seem far safer in terms of available protection, regardless of difficulty. Not saying that in a bad way.. as having choice of places to place gear from has to help, both mentally and physically.
The ease of placing protection, and how much decent protection can be placed, certainly does factor in on some climbs. And not every trad climb is a horror show. On those that are not, the gear may or may not be a factor in how hard you can climb.
In reply to: In light of that it seems very odd to me why your country bolts so many routes yet mine does not.. surely that should be the other way around.
How much limestone and featured but mostly crack-free sandstone you got?
GO
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surfergirl
Jun 1, 2011, 9:18 PM
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A year ago i was leading 5.9, easy 10a sport, and trad leading 5.nothing. Now i am onsighting 5.9 trad...and recently got shut down on two super easy 5.7 sport routes that had been my first leads! Since i started focusing on trad apparently i don't know how to climb face anymore. Also since i started focusing on leading i don't follow strong anymore...i can barely follow harder than i lead.
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ceebo
Jun 1, 2011, 10:37 PM
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cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: cracklover wrote: ceebo wrote: We are in trouble as a species if people refuse to believe in something that they couldn't actually do them self. You can't trad lead worth shit. That's fine. You're a n00b. Trouble is that you refuse to believe that other people can. That doesn't mean we can't, it just means you refuse to believe us. GO No they can't.. but i like what you tried to do their. Around this point i could slow mo 5 million climbing vids of people placing gear VS people clipping a bolt to see who is fastest. But that still would not be enough. You would no doubt find some little excuse. I realise you guys need the ego boost of being hardcore and having all levels the same. It is just a shame you fail to realise it can not happen on these pathetic sort of grades ;]. Me need some excuse? You're nuts. I, along with all the other experienced climbers in this thread who have only a letter or two difference already know the truth. It's you who are looking for excuses for why you can't climb trad worth a damn. You are confused about how we are able to do what we do, but rather than being humble and asking how we do it, you deny the possibility of such a thing. Totally lame. GO It is a difference none the less. If you are the experienced trad climber you claim to be.. then fear and quick placements + efficient placing is of no issue to you. What else is left to explain the gap?. For me? Nothing. My hardest trad and sport onsight are the same grade. In many areas, the sport routes are a little inflated, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see experienced climbers with a letter or two gap. In reply to: As for me and trad, i have no illusion of my standard.. nor do i care how low or high it should be. Only reason i done some trad is because i have no other choice.. we have limited bolted options. This is not a personal gripe over my low trad grade, i have no intent of pushing my trad anywhere near my sport grade either.. E8 is not a joke. Nor did I say you should push your trad grade. However, since you suck at trad climbing, and have little to no interest in it, what you should not do is insist that you know better than people who are proficient at it. I'm a shitty boulderer. If I went around spewing arguments about how your bouldering grade should relate to your route-climbing grade in such-and-such a way, and exactly why, based on the length of the climb and the pure difficulty of each move and blah blah blah, I would sound equally moronic as you. If, upon being confronted with the fact that I was wrong, I persisted in my argument, I would be as moronic as you. In reply to: Interestingly, most routes i have seen vids of in america seem far safer in terms of available protection, regardless of difficulty. Not saying that in a bad way.. as having choice of places to place gear from has to help, both mentally and physically. The ease of placing protection, and how much decent protection can be placed, certainly does factor in on some climbs. And not every trad climb is a horror show. On those that are not, the gear may or may not be a factor in how hard you can climb. In reply to: In light of that it seems very odd to me why your country bolts so many routes yet mine does not.. surely that should be the other way around. How much limestone and featured but mostly crack-free sandstone you got? GO
I don't need to climb E10 or what ever to know clipping a bolt is faster than placing gear, the joys of vids?. At best the placing of gear will be the same, you saying you can repeatedly place gear as fast as i can clip a bolt?, lies.
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caughtinside
Jun 1, 2011, 10:57 PM
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You seem to think that the speed of which you can gain protection/get the rope clipped is the limiting factor on how hard a grade you can climb. I don't believe this is the case. It certainly plays a role, but is not the limiting factor.
There's tricks to it, just like anything else. You wouldn't stop in the middle of a crux move to clip a draw would you? You wouldn't do so to place gear either. Ever seen guys skip draws? Sometimes you just gotta punch it above your gear.
But keep going. I"m almost convinced that the dude who can clip a draw fastest will be out there redpointing the hardest grades.
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hafilax
Jun 1, 2011, 10:57 PM
Post #95 of 130
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Registered: Dec 12, 2007
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Beth Rodden has figured out how to place gear really fast; duct tape it to the harness.
(5:20)
http://vimeo.com/6530477
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sungam
Jun 1, 2011, 11:07 PM
Post #96 of 130
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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caughtinside wrote: You seem to think that the speed of which you can gain protection/get the rope clipped is the limiting factor on how hard a grade you can climb. I don't believe this is the case. It certainly plays a role, but is not the limiting factor. There's tricks to it, just like anything else. You wouldn't stop in the middle of a crux move to clip a draw would you? You wouldn't do so to place gear either. Ever seen guys skip draws? Sometimes you just gotta punch it above your gear. But keep going. I"m almost convinced that the dude who can clip a draw fastest will be out there redpointing the hardest grades.
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ceebo
Jun 2, 2011, 1:06 AM
Post #97 of 130
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caughtinside wrote: You seem to think that the speed of which you can gain protection/get the rope clipped is the limiting factor on how hard a grade you can climb. I don't believe this is the case. It certainly plays a role, but is not the limiting factor. There's tricks to it, just like anything else. You wouldn't stop in the middle of a crux move to clip a draw would you? You wouldn't do so to place gear either. Ever seen guys skip draws? Sometimes you just gotta punch it above your gear. But keep going. I"m almost convinced that the dude who can clip a draw fastest will be out there redpointing the hardest grades.
I did not say it was the only factor. But it is common sense that spending extra time over an entire route is going to require more endurance.
The style where you can complete a route the fastest while maintaining quality efficiency is going to be the style you can climb harder in. If not, then their are some strange mental barriers.
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caughtinside
Jun 2, 2011, 1:50 AM
Post #98 of 130
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: You seem to think that the speed of which you can gain protection/get the rope clipped is the limiting factor on how hard a grade you can climb. I don't believe this is the case. It certainly plays a role, but is not the limiting factor. There's tricks to it, just like anything else. You wouldn't stop in the middle of a crux move to clip a draw would you? You wouldn't do so to place gear either. Ever seen guys skip draws? Sometimes you just gotta punch it above your gear. But keep going. I"m almost convinced that the dude who can clip a draw fastest will be out there redpointing the hardest grades. I did not say it was the only factor. But it is common sense that spending extra time over an entire route is going to require more endurance. The style where you can complete a route the fastest while maintaining quality efficiency is going to be the style you can climb harder in. If not, then their are some strange mental barriers.
There are many routes, sport and trad, where the grade is determined by one hard crux section with easier climbing and perhaps even rests on either side of that crux. In such a situation, gear efficiency and endurance are way less important than having the technique and the guns to pull the crux.
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jacques
Jun 2, 2011, 2:10 PM
Post #99 of 130
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Some people don't know how to rate a route. I climbed a 5.7, all on my feet, and strong sport climber rate it, at least, 5.9.
Can you explain me how to make the difference between a 5.7, 5.9 and 5.11?
We had a very beautifull move at the top of a run out. As we can felt 30 feet, it was stressfull. the respiration was harder, the muscle a little bit more contracted. The difficulty was to relax and make the move properly (5.10). Today, they placed a bolt at the crux...you can aid the move. It is a two finger pocket on a slipery slab and you grab other good think: a one boring move scrap with a bolt (5.8, maybe 9).
Clean fall of course...it is all slaby. So, the rating is it the same in trad and in sport if you remove the commitment in a move?
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justroberto
Jun 2, 2011, 2:54 PM
Post #100 of 130
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Registered: Feb 21, 2006
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jacques wrote: So, the rating is it the same in trad and in sport if you remove the commitment in a move?
Yes. That's what all but one person have been saying for four pages now.
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