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cracklover
May 25, 2011, 10:48 PM
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b.
They couldn't! It's incontheivable!
In reply to: Inigo Montoya: You are sure nobody's following us? Vizzini: As I told you, it would be absolutely, totally, and in all other ways inconceivable. No one in Guilder knows what we've done, and no one in Florin could have gotten here so fast. - Out of curiosity, why do you ask? Inigo Montoya: No reason. It's only... I just happened to look behind us and something is there. Vizzini: What? Probably some local fisherman, out for a pleasure cruise, at night... in... eel-infested waters...
One of these days I've gotta get out to the Cliffs of Insanity at the Creek. Wiggins I and II, Broken Brain... It looks like there are some really nice lines.
GO
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cacalderon
May 26, 2011, 12:06 AM
Post #27 of 130
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interesting question.
I guess the gap should really be zero... if you climb as much sport as you climb trad.
However, nowadays, most people start sport climbing in a gym and then later move into trad climbing. This is probably why the gap is wide since you need to build confidence with gear placements etc.
In my particular case i would says it is not more than a couple letter grades.
Only way to improve is to practice = more climbing outdoors.
(This post was edited by cacalderon on May 26, 2011, 12:23 AM)
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ceebo
May 26, 2011, 12:10 AM
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b.
If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b.
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amyas
May 26, 2011, 12:38 AM
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gblauer wrote: I am a complete and total wimp. I would say it's two full grades for me.
ditto
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Gmburns2000
May 26, 2011, 1:22 AM
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hardest clean sport lead was 11a. Hardest clean trad lead was 5.9.
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swoopee
May 26, 2011, 1:47 AM
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I suck equally at both sport and trad. 
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VertFlirt
May 26, 2011, 2:33 AM
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glad to see so many responses. i agree with many of you that the more comfident u r in the head, and placing gear, the narrower your gap will be. i am dedicating this season to narrowing that gap, and not by the means of lowering my sport abilities
im going to digest many times, arnos books, and altho i do feel i am decent at placing gear, i think some clean aid will help the head games. also gunna try and take some safe gear wippers..
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caughtinside
May 26, 2011, 3:02 AM
Post #33 of 130
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b.
Are the moves harder on top rope or leading?
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joeforte
May 26, 2011, 3:14 AM
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I redpoint both sport and trad at about the same level, in the high 12s I guess. I project both around soft 13. The only gap I have is onsight, where occasionally I will burn some strength placing gear. I onsight a letter grade or two lower on trad. On some hard trad routes, placing the gear is the crux. Having it dialed makes the route much easier. I tend to avoid projecting trad routes, because I enjoy the onsight. If I can't get a route, often I will wait a few months before coming back, to give it that same onsight feel.
If there is a gap because the gear is deceiving, or difficult to place, that is understandable. If there is a gap because of your head, you need to fall on some gear (backed up of course). I trust my gear far more than a bolt of unknown age and history. I've seen brand new bolts misplaced and watched the bolter just crank them down anyway.
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Tipton
May 26, 2011, 11:57 AM
Post #35 of 130
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading?
I know you're being sarcastic, but me and my partner always refer to the "top rope blues". On top rope, I never climb as hard as I can, I'll say take on top rope when on lead I will fight for every inch and usually will fall instead of calling for a take. I'm not sure what it is about top rope that makes me like that, but it has happened often enough that we noticed it. On lead, I'm so focused on climbing perfect that I do significantly better than on top rope.
For the OP: 10a trad, 11a sport.
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kachoong
May 26, 2011, 12:21 PM
Post #36 of 130
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Tipton wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? I know you're being sarcastic, but me and my partner always refer to the "top rope blues". On top rope, I never climb as hard as I can, I'll say take on top rope when on lead I will fight for every inch and usually will fall instead of calling for a take. I'm not sure what it is about top rope that makes me like that, but it has happened often enough that we noticed it. On lead, I'm so focused on climbing perfect that I do significantly better than on top rope. For the OP: 10a trad, 11a sport.
Wearing a condom is never as exciting.
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ceebo
May 26, 2011, 12:33 PM
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading?
You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you.
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A-Bowl
May 26, 2011, 2:36 PM
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1-2 letters
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trenchdigger
May 26, 2011, 3:07 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: just wondering if others out have a signifigant gap between there hardest sport leads and trad leads. sport im bout 11b-c trad 10a-b . been trad climbing for 3-4years, sport for 5-6 years. not really looking for advice, just wondering if others r in a similar sitch and what ur opinion, is that gap too big?
It's a bit odd, but I can regularly climb almost a full number grade harder on trad than sport and gym routes. I excel at thin crack, slab and technical thin face, but don't have great endurance and get pumped to all hell on anything that's sustained and overhung, no matter the size of the holds. It's not so much the type of protection or FA style as the nature of the climbing that affects my limit.
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caughtinside
May 26, 2011, 3:21 PM
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you.
Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b.
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ceebo
May 26, 2011, 10:37 PM
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you. Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b.
Oh i'm sorry, are we talking about the kinda grades where everything is a jug?.
Your talking out your arse m8, the hardest route ive lead climbed was JUST done.. with nothing left in me. Not a fucking chance would i have had the energy to piss around placing gear in comparison, even if that gear was pre quick draw'd.
Your the one going off on a rant thinking i said the grades themselves were the same.. you just don't get it.
(This post was edited by ceebo on May 26, 2011, 10:46 PM)
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caughtinside
May 27, 2011, 12:07 AM
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you. Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b. Oh i'm sorry, are we talking about the kinda grades where everything is a jug?. Your talking out your arse m8, the hardest route ive lead climbed was JUST done.. with nothing left in me. Not a fucking chance would i have had the energy to piss around placing gear in comparison, even if that gear was pre quick draw'd. Your the one going off on a rant thinking i said the grades themselves were the same.. you just don't get it.
Maybe you are confusing route difficulty with other skills such as efficiency, pacing and quick and relaxed gear placements. More than once I have taken several lead falls on my first attempt on something near my limit. Looked at the sequences, figured out what I did wrong, pulled the rope, cleaned the gear and sent second or third try. Both sport and trad.
As a self admitted new trad climber, you probably haven't refined some of those skills where you can get your gear in quickly without burning yourself up. It took me years to refine them, and I'm still working on it.
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perelman
May 27, 2011, 3:26 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: VertFlirt wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: My hardest sport on-sights were 11c-ish. My hardest trad on-sights were 11b-ish. A big milestone for me was a hard 5.9 that I fell on in the Adirondacks a few years ago. I fell on two different pieces on that pitch, one of which I just slammed into a crack, going on instinct and not thinking about the size 'cuz I was so pumped. My instincts were right, and that gave me a lot of confidence. I'm absolutely not trying to be a dick here, but drawing the conclusion that your 'instincts' were right, based on one event, is not at all valid. I'd want a larger sample space - 10 or so such falls - before I started jamming pieces on instinct without thinking about the size. Again, not interested in calling you out, it's just not a valid conclusion that you drew based on one isolated case.
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joeforte
May 27, 2011, 4:21 AM
Post #44 of 130
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Tipton wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? I know you're being sarcastic, but me and my partner always refer to the "top rope blues". On top rope, I never climb as hard as I can, I'll say take on top rope when on lead I will fight for every inch and usually will fall instead of calling for a take. I'm not sure what it is about top rope that makes me like that, but it has happened often enough that we noticed it. On lead, I'm so focused on climbing perfect that I do significantly better than on top rope. For the OP: 10a trad, 11a sport.
I've experienced this. It is a real phenomenon! I climb WAY harder on lead.
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ceebo
May 27, 2011, 9:32 AM
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caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you. Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b. Oh i'm sorry, are we talking about the kinda grades where everything is a jug?. Your talking out your arse m8, the hardest route ive lead climbed was JUST done.. with nothing left in me. Not a fucking chance would i have had the energy to piss around placing gear in comparison, even if that gear was pre quick draw'd. Your the one going off on a rant thinking i said the grades themselves were the same.. you just don't get it. Maybe you are confusing route difficulty with other skills such as efficiency, pacing and quick and relaxed gear placements. More than once I have taken several lead falls on my first attempt on something near my limit. Looked at the sequences, figured out what I did wrong, pulled the rope, cleaned the gear and sent second or third try. Both sport and trad. As a self admitted new trad climber, you probably haven't refined some of those skills where you can get your gear in quickly without burning yourself up. It took me years to refine them, and I'm still working on it.
Again, i am not the one who confused the actual graded route difficulty (the moves). And, just because i am ''new'' to trad climbing it does not mean that i cant connect the dots and realise trying to clip a bolt from a difficult position is going to be even worse if the same move required placing gear. It is completely logical and i do not see why you argue otherwise?.. 5 seconds is longer than 3 right?.. or does extra time spent (even if only 1 second per placement over a bolt clip) not relate to endurance condition?, will it have no effect at all?.
You mocked me earlier about lets use S.10d or T.10d.. but you barely even realise how true that is. We already have the E system for are trad climbing (the grade is given for TRAD alone, well.. and walking o0). Why? because the demands are different, and not just from a danger point of view.
Im not even trying to argue that trad is the best or any of that shit, just stating theirs a clear difference to climb the exact same route in all the styles.
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sungam
May 27, 2011, 11:23 AM
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You use the E system? Do you live in Britain?
BTW, I really hate that damn klown but it's entirely possible that he has a little more experience then you in leading hard(ish) trad... And let's not forget that he did onsite thewwarmup/$20hooker and downgraded it.
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joeforte
May 27, 2011, 1:46 PM
Post #47 of 130
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ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: caughtinside wrote: ceebo wrote: Sorry but this is not clear to me. I'm a noob trad climber but not totally clueless, their are blatantly different physical demand's. Take 1 route, for example.. it will be physically easiest done free solo or on top rope. Leading will require more isometric ability in forearms and trad will require even more than the previous. Looking at it purely from a physical perspective and very clinicaly, your trad level can not be the same as your sport unless some other factor (like your brain) is effecting the results. Trad and sport being at the same grade is just as ludicrous as sport and top rope being at the same grade.. unless im totally missing something obvious here?. Ok maybe when we are talking about the best climbers in the world on the hardest possible routes.. i can accept that their grades will be very close as they are reaching the upper limits of whats humanly possible, at least as we perceive them in today's standards. Great post. How could .10b ever be the same as .10b. If you are willing to say trad is no more demanding than top rope then yeah, .10b is .10b. Are the moves harder on top rope or leading? You know what, you are so far past the point now.. that you clearly do not have a clue. I like to think you are just trolling, at least i have some hope left for you. Hey thanks. You're the new trad leader, you're the expert. Trad and sport being the same grade is ludicrous, you said so yourself. Maybe we should have a new grading system so everyone knows trad is harder? We can differentiate by letter. T5.10b is harder than S5.10b. Oh i'm sorry, are we talking about the kinda grades where everything is a jug?. Your talking out your arse m8, the hardest route ive lead climbed was JUST done.. with nothing left in me. Not a fucking chance would i have had the energy to piss around placing gear in comparison, even if that gear was pre quick draw'd. Your the one going off on a rant thinking i said the grades themselves were the same.. you just don't get it. Maybe you are confusing route difficulty with other skills such as efficiency, pacing and quick and relaxed gear placements. More than once I have taken several lead falls on my first attempt on something near my limit. Looked at the sequences, figured out what I did wrong, pulled the rope, cleaned the gear and sent second or third try. Both sport and trad. As a self admitted new trad climber, you probably haven't refined some of those skills where you can get your gear in quickly without burning yourself up. It took me years to refine them, and I'm still working on it. Again, i am not the one who confused the actual graded route difficulty (the moves). And, just because i am ''new'' to trad climbing it does not mean that i cant connect the dots and realise trying to clip a bolt from a difficult position is going to be even worse if the same move required placing gear. It is completely logical and i do not see why you argue otherwise?.. 5 seconds is longer than 3 right?.. or does extra time spent (even if only 1 second per placement over a bolt clip) not relate to endurance condition?, will it have no effect at all?. You mocked me earlier about lets use S.10d or T.10d.. but you barely even realise how true that is. We already have the E system for are trad climbing (the grade is given for TRAD alone, well.. and walking o0). Why? because the demands are different, and not just from a danger point of view. Im not even trying to argue that trad is the best or any of that shit, just stating theirs a clear difference to climb the exact same route in all the styles.
I route's grade is defined by the single hardest move. It does not matter what you do between those moves, or how long it takes you, or how long you have to hold on. A 10b route has a single hardest move of 10b. The rest could be casual 5.4 moves, or pumpy endurance 10a moves, it doesn't matter. You could freesolo it, clip the bolts, or place gear on it. That crux move is still 10b.
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rtwilli4
May 27, 2011, 1:50 PM
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Registered: Feb 14, 2008
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perelman wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: A big milestone for me was a hard 5.9 that I fell on in the Adirondacks a few years ago. I fell on two different pieces on that pitch, one of which I just slammed into a crack, going on instinct and not thinking about the size 'cuz I was so pumped. My instincts were right, and that gave me a lot of confidence. I'm absolutely not trying to be a dick here, but drawing the conclusion that your 'instincts' were right, based on one event, is not at all valid. I'd want a larger sample space - 10 or so such falls - before I started jamming pieces on instinct without thinking about the size. Again, not interested in calling you out, it's just not a valid conclusion that you drew based on one isolated case.
I'm not sure you really understood what I was saying. I'm not implying that anyone should, or could, ever just place gear without thinking about the size. Obviously one must make a decision based on the options available.
What I meant was that I was able to put in the right piece, fast, without getting it wrong the first time. For a lot of people, being able to do this is a step toward climbing harder.
My instinct was to put in an Orange TCU and my instinct was right. I'm not sure that I was drawing any conclusions. It was just a simple event in which was pumped, needed to get a piece of pro in fast, and did. What's wrong with gaining confidence from that?
I didn't just walk away thinking "OK, I have good instincts so now I can just go climb anything!"
I think you're going to find that if you split hairs here (especially with someone who is just trying to help, and not giving any wrong information) then you will rarely be taken seriously.
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perelman
May 27, 2011, 2:07 PM
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Fair enough. But what you consider 'splitting hairs' someone else might consider 'thinking rationally'. I'm not interested in what audience you think might or might not take that kind of thinking 'seriously'.
I also have zero interest in arguing. I saw a flaw in your thinking, pointed it out, you have responded, fine, done deal.
Have fun and be safe.
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jacques
May 27, 2011, 2:19 PM
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[quote "rtwilli4"]My instinct was to put in an Orange TCU and my instinct was right. I'm not sure that I was drawing any conclusions. It was just a simple event in which was pumped, needed to get a piece of pro in fast, and did. What's wrong with gaining confidence from that?
I didn't just walk away thinking "OK, I have good instincts so now I can just go climb anything!" [/quote]
I think that it is a major distinction between trad and sport.
When you have a bolt, you just clip it as you are pump and go for the top.
when you climb on gear, you have to evaluate the risk of a fall. If the TCU don't hold, where are you going to fall? Inconsciously, you know that a 20 feet run out with chance of hitting a ledge is dangerous and your body will react to that. Or, as many sport climber, you will be overconfident on your pro and the chance to be injure will be greater.
When should we evaluate the risk of a fall and where to protect. Some climber are instinctive and don't have any method. Some climber are less instinctive and use method like the fall factor. Both work well and gave, surprisingly, the same result: a climber move from one rest place to an other. at the rest place, they choose where to place the pro. A climber can make a move, place a pro and come back to the rest place. or he can down climb.
The major point is that the climber know the maximal distance between two protection and the minimal distance. After that he decide where he can place a pro and the size of the pro.
As you said: "not thinking about the size 'cuz I was so pumped", I think that you was sport climbing and you were lucky that the tcu was good. It is a situation that trad climber are afraid of when they make mistake. The climber are not the master of the climb, but he use last minute decision without knowing the consequences of them.
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