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jacques
Oct 25, 2011, 2:36 PM
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gmggg wrote: Also, what exactly is a "stuck" rope in this particular case. What did they get it stuck in/on? That upper section is brief slabs intertwined with blocky sections. There aren't a whole ton of cracks and there aren't trees.
When you rap, you pull the rope and the rope can be stuck after you let's go the end of the rope. You have to climb back to the anchor. worse think that can happen and in accident in north america, there always a case like that...in a blank wall.
In the introduction of canon cliff, ed webster book: "Canon is not the place to learn how to belay or rappel. become proficientat both techniquebefore you come to Canon.
I was at two hour from the top and we had 2 hour and 30 of light and more at dust. I was with three partner. One of them took one hour and a half to do the finger of fate. the rest of the team was at the belay half and hour later and, in the traverse to the right, I didn't have enought light and not sure were to go to risk and injury and place my team in danger. I had to bail in the night with three person with low knowledge of safety. I brought them all down even if a rope was stuck in the pitch after repy's crack. I was lucky.
There is a lot of difference between someone who know what to do and be push by the even to make mistake and people who climb a long route with 11 hours of light, cold weather and lot of rain the days before. If I had an accident, and i know that it can happen, it had been a mistake because I had too many thing to do at the same time. Can I estimate that a twenty minutes move will had took 1hour 30 minutes... I don't think so. I had test my climber in an harder route before, she was not in a good day.
Accident is always something stupid because we analyse it with our two feet on the ground. As we analyse it in the context, experience climber will do mistake because they try to go too fast (lenght of the rope on a rap), inexperience climber will take a good decision and make mistake after because they have too much thing to manage at the same time. Ignorant climber will make many mistake and call the rescue before finding a solution.
As the rescue team know a lot about accident, I am always surprise by there comment. Drunk and drivive is somethink stupid and insulting the driver can gave go results. Climbing is not stupid and nobody like to put there life in danger. The role of the rescue is to educate the climber and i think that making a strong distinction between learning trad and learning sport is important .
(This post was edited by jacques on Oct 25, 2011, 2:42 PM)
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chadnsc
Oct 25, 2011, 3:16 PM
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jakedatc wrote: bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ? Are you kidding me ? I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out i have never met anyone in emergency services ... or any outdoor guides with that attitude ...  people run up the chief here all the time with nothing more than some water and a few gummy bears ... even now youre unlikely to bring anything more than some water, snacks, a jacket, matches, headlamp and a survival bag/blanket ... and a cell phone the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible you sure do you like your gummy bear story... 2 threads in 2 totally different forums and topics... 
He sure does like that story.
So much that bearbutter has brought up his gummybears story over at backpackinglight.com where he's been trying his hardest his to become the Majid of backpacking SAR. 
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bearbreeder
Oct 25, 2011, 3:29 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help. To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it. If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber. Josh
IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves
ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways
then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli
the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea
bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped
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jakedatc
Oct 25, 2011, 3:34 PM
Post #29 of 66
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chadnsc wrote: jakedatc wrote: bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ? Are you kidding me ? I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out i have never met anyone in emergency services ... or any outdoor guides with that attitude ... people run up the chief here all the time with nothing more than some water and a few gummy bears ... even now youre unlikely to bring anything more than some water, snacks, a jacket, matches, headlamp and a survival bag/blanket ... and a cell phone the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible you sure do you like your gummy bear story... 2 threads in 2 totally different forums and topics... He sure does like that story. So much that bearbutter has brought up his gummybears story over at backpackinglight.com where he's been trying his hardest his to become the Majid of backpacking SAR.
yea check the thread I was there ;) .. with a side of JT's nutrition advice.... except that unlike Jay they have no clue what they're talking about.
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cracklover
Oct 25, 2011, 4:08 PM
Post #30 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help. To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it. If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber. Josh IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped
I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice.
Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need.
If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice.
The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead.
There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts.
As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment.
GO
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carabiner96
Oct 25, 2011, 5:09 PM
Post #31 of 66
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guangzhou wrote: I've climbed on Canon, the talus field, on your first trip will slow you down, the route finding could slow you down too I guess. To call this a "Wilderness Wall" seems a bit of a stretch for me. The parking area is near the base of the talus field, and as the article mentioned, the Search an Rescue guys used a chairlift to access the top.
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bearbreeder
Oct 26, 2011, 12:41 AM
Post #32 of 66
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My point is simply that all the fancy gear n the world is no substute for skills
Note i said REASONABLY fast and light in my original post
One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ...
If you cant do a rock climb in a non remote location without dragging up a shietload of gear (not just pro an ropes) then my suggestion would be to go on something more suitable ... You dont want to be one of those parties here aiding up every crux an causing traffic jams ... Or being recued because yr too slow and got benighted
I always wonder about these people bringing big 40L+ packs up what are basically roadside rock multipitch routes ....
cracklover wrote: bearbreeder wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help. To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it. If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber. Josh IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice. Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need. If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice. The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead. There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts. As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment. GO |
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damienclimber
Oct 26, 2011, 12:50 AM
Post #33 of 66
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notapplicable wrote: wonderwoman wrote: gmggg wrote: Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them. Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck. ...and you're off route and disoriented and it's dark... Since they obviously were not willing to spend the night on the wall, I'd rather they acknowledged their situation and called for help, instead of "saving" themselves in to an early grave. Rapping in to unknown territory on Canon after dark is an easy way for an inexperienced climber to get dead.
There's always moonlight!
Its is a natural adaptation.
Besides blind climbers climb and rap in perpetual darkness very decently.
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notapplicable
Oct 26, 2011, 4:28 AM
Post #34 of 66
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damienclimber wrote: notapplicable wrote: wonderwoman wrote: gmggg wrote: Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them. Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck. ...and you're off route and disoriented and it's dark... Since they obviously were not willing to spend the night on the wall, I'd rather they acknowledged their situation and called for help, instead of "saving" themselves in to an early grave. Rapping in to unknown territory on Canon after dark is an easy way for an inexperienced climber to get dead. There's always moonlight! Its is a natural adaptation. Besides blind climbers climb and rap in perpetual darkness very decently.
For an experienced climber, sure.
But a nOOb rapping in to an unexpectedly steep and blank section of the wall with no anchor options would be forced to ascend the rope with numb hands or hang there till rescue could be arranged. That is both a very real possibilty and a substantial danger to life and limb.
No, I stand by my post.
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guangzhou
Oct 26, 2011, 5:37 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: My point is simply that all the fancy gear n the world is no substute for skills
Agree, and in many cases, thee extra wait of bringing everything you might need cause you to slow down and need it.
What you bring and don't bring is up to you as a climber. If these guys would have been hauling on MB and somehow needed to be rescued, people on this site would have called them Noob and ignorant for bringing so much. Because they choose to lighter, they are being called noobs.
Sometime, things do happen we can't control.
My partner and I ran decided to do royal arches after having lunch at the deli one day. We ran up the route in about 3 hours, and were back on the ground in under 5. We ate dinner at the deli.
A week later, we wanted to see if could do the entire route in under one hour. Just above the Pendulum, a thunderstorm came out of no-where.
We spent a cold and miserable afternoon on the ledge. Around Midnight, the rain let up, but because we were planning on climbing in under an hour, we had no headlamp, instead of going up or down, we used sticks and twigs on the ledge to keep warm. (I always have a lighter on the zipper of my chalk-bag.
We had a set of nuts, 70 meter 10mm rope, and half a set of cams. two quarts of water, and by luck some sticks. We were cold, wet, and hungry.
Same partner and I have done the Valley Floor to Summit of Snake Dike in under 6 hours. On those trips, I see climber carrying everything they camped with up the route. Many of them finish after dark, and hike out by headlamp.
Even with sub six hours on Snake Dike, a few years ago, a partner who did Serenity and Sons of Yesterday to Crest Jewel with me two days before slipped on the traverse of Snake Dike. Her ankle felt less pain smearing than walking, so we decided the best way out was over the top.
We were moving light, had a very cold night on the summit, called SAR to mule her out after descending the cables and I hike out solo to meet her in the Hospital.
In reply to: One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ...
Doesn't seem so light to me. Especially if everyone in the party has that packing list. First Aid Kit, I always wonder how useful the First Aid kits I see are. In most cases, a roll of Athletic tape and a shirt would be better suited.
Do you bring this packing list on every single multi-pitch route you do?
If not, which ones? How many time in the last year have you climb a route 5 pitches or longer with everyone in your party carrying this packing list up the route?
In reply to: If you cant do a rock climb in a non remote location without dragging up a shietload of gear (not just pro an ropes) then my suggestion would be to go on something more suitable ... You dont want to be one of those parties here aiding up every crux an causing traffic jams ... Or being recued because yr too slow and got benighted
No one goes up hoping to need rescuing. A combination of things, often small things, cause problems along the way.
In reply to: I always wonder about these people bringing big 40L+ packs up what are basically roadside rock multipitch routes ....
Me too
In reply to: Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing.
You only gain experience by doing it. The more experience the lighter you can go. Again, non of us have any idea how light these guys were.
In reply to: These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure.
I don't know these guys experience level and don' want to assume anything.
As for "5.8 we can do that" is that different from "5.10 I can do that," or "5.11 I can do that," and then find out you can't and need rescuing?
In reply to: One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help.
Maybe it was premature to call for help, I really don't know. Here is what I know, no-one died or lost limbs so all ended well.
In reply to: To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it.
Agree 100% with you on that.
In reply to: If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber. Josh
Nice.
In reply to: IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped
I completely agree with you.
In reply to: I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice.
That how I feel about the advice you're giving.
In reply to: Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need.
Climbers, regardless of their ability should do what ever they can to accurately estimate their ability and what gear they need.
In reply to: If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice.
While Moby Grape is rated harder, I think it has easier route finding, better protection, and easier on many other fronts.
In reply to: If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice.
Extra ropes mean extra rope management skills, extra gear means slower climbing. The more "just in case something happens" gear you bring up, the more likely you are to use it.
In reply to: The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead.
Not sure how having more gear improves your skill level. Sometime, more is just that, more. More for the sake of more is called excess.
In reply to: There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts.
Maybe these guys had practice on several routes already. For all you know they were doing two or three ground to summit 5.8 routes a day at Cathedral Ledges and decided to do something on Canon. Again, this articles provides nothing about their back-ground.
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bearbreeder
Oct 26, 2011, 6:22 AM
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guangzhou wrote: In reply to: One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ... Doesn't seem so light to me. Especially if everyone in the party has that packing list. First Aid Kit, I always wonder how useful the First Aid kits I see are. In most cases, a roll of Athletic tape and a shirt would be better suited. Do you bring this packing list on every single multi-pitch route you do? If not, which ones? How many time in the last year have you climb a route 5 pitches or longer with everyone in your party carrying this packing list up the route?
thats more of an example of what i can fit in there ... unless if it falls below freezing im not putting it all in there ... do note that the jackets are all UL, ie all my jackets combined (rain and 2 puffies) weight less than my old arcteryx rain jacket
the last run i did up the chief 2 weeks ago ... i brought
a light synth puffy jacket (13 oz)
a headsheets survival blanket (3 oz)
headlamp (3 oz)
1L of water for myself (partner had 1L as well)
first aid kit (home made, basically climbing tape, gauzes, alcoholic hand cleaner that doubles as firestarter and TP that can be used as same)
matches
whistle
gummy bears
cell phone
and likely a few other things i cant remember
partner had a fleece as well and i have a softshell on ... temps were in the 40s to 50s in the day ... and i considered it adequate in case of a bivy ... and thats between both partners, no packs
depending on the situation id take the rain jacket (6oz), down puffy (5oz) or blizzard survival bag (14 oz, it is a tested 40F COMFORT,not survival rating, bag) or mix and match depending on the conditions
heres a pic of the "oh shiet" scenario gear ... 2 puffies, rain jacket, a 40F comfort rated bag, headlamp, water, etc ... it all fits into a 14L bullet pack and weights a total of 6 lbs including water, but not including gummy bears
for all the above i listed previously, i consider it highly survivable down to the 20s, which is as low as reasonable for overnight temps while climbing rock outside IMO ...
i frequently run up with WAY less depending on the route and conditions ... in the summer all you need is some water, a headlamp and light first aid in pocket, cell phone, survival blanket and matches in the other pocket ... and gummy bears of course
heres me and a partner (who has never done trad multi so we were slow) about a month ago going up 12 easy linked pitches up the chief in 5-6 hours and that was with a minor epic on route ... we may have had a light bullet pack between the 2 of us ... people run up it easily in 3-4 hours if they are fast ... i did bring extras in cams though as my partner was not well versed in cleaning tricams ... of course some groups spend 10+hours on the route, they also seem to be hauling bigger packs
heres another one from this month where we descended in the dark .... no pack, run up the chief ... partner staring off in the sunset on the 1st peak
as said previously it all depends on the route, conditions, level of the climber ... but generally the more you bring, the slower you are, and the more likely you are to get caught
for most routes under 6 pitches, i dont bother bringing a pack unless its the shoulder seasons or more remote ... i usually run up a 6+ pitch route 2-3 times a week when the weather is good i ran up 2 of them the weekend before and another one last week, no pack generally ... keep in mind that many squamish routes are generally right by the road with trees you can rap down from ... ie low commitement factor ...
hope that answers yr question
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 26, 2011, 8:15 AM)
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jakedatc
Oct 26, 2011, 2:28 PM
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notapplicable wrote: bearbreeder wrote: Face blurred to protect the identity of PAS user.
also seems like one of those guys who likes walking around with their ATC hitting them in the junk all day.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 26, 2011, 2:51 PM
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guangzhou wrote: As for "5.8 we can do that" is that different from "5.10 I can do that," or "5.11 I can do that," and then find out you can't and need rescuing?
I'm not going to respond to everything you said, because I either agree or it's not important enough to me to offer a rebuttal, but I do want to respond to this.
I do think it's different and here's why. Grades aside and realizing they are subjective and everyone has their own idea about what a moderate is, I think they do tell part of the story. I think we can all agree that, in general, 5.8 is pretty attainable for almost everyone in a short amount of time. Because of being that attainable, climbers who don't have the experience may assume that if they can do one 5.8, they can do another. Climbers that have progressed a little more have more experience to draw from (Which includes how to get themselves out of less than ideal situations). IME, people that I know that are climbing 10s and 11s on gear understand their limits much better.
Josh
Josh
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cracklover
Oct 26, 2011, 5:45 PM
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guangzhou wrote: In reply to: Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need. Climbers, regardless of their ability should do what ever they can to accurately estimate their ability and what gear they need.
You're completely missing my point. New leaders do not have a fine-tuned understanding of their abilities.
They don't know how good their gear really is, so they are smart to place extra.
They don't know how snail-eye exposure may make them freeze up at a crux they'd cruise near the ground, making some pitches take longer, or requiring them to place an extra piece to soothe their head.
They don't know how well they'll do, or how long it will take them, if they run into all kids of situations that they've only read about, or maybe handled once in a low-stress environment. And they're more likely to get in those situations in the first place.
When following, they may take ten times longer to figure out how to A0 or jug a rope to get past a move they can't do than you or I would. Route finding may be much more challenging for them. They may severely underestimate how long their belay changeovers will take. They may miss subtle gear placements you or I would notice, and have to place more gear to make up for it, or bring more gear to make up for not being able to adequately use whatever's left at the top of the pitch. They may be more likely to get a rap rope stuck, and be happy to have a real lead rope rather than a pull line to work with.. Etc etc. And half of this is stuff they don't even know they don't know. It's all stuff that just comes with experience.
When you know your capabilities, you know what can get thrown at you, how to avoid some of it, and deal with the rest fairly efficiently, you can play it closer to the line, and 1 - have a better chance of pulling it off, and 2 - deal safely with the consequences if everything doesn't go according to plan. That means you can get away with bringing less gear, and setting harder and more committing objectives, relative to your physical climbing ability.
In reply to: In reply to: If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice. While Moby Grape is rated harder, I think it has easier route finding, better protection, and easier on many other fronts.
Yer high. There are two or three pitches on MG I can think of that are either indistinct, confusing, or take almost zero gear on a full rope length of crap rock. There's not one such on WG. WG is also fewer pitches, and the pitches go by faster. Mountain Project rightly calls WG grade II and MG grade III.
In reply to: In reply to: If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice. Extra ropes mean extra rope management skills, extra gear means slower climbing. The more "just in case something happens" gear you bring up, the more likely you are to use it.
How does having a 9 mil lead-rated cord in your bag rather than an 8 mil pull line mean extra rope handling? If anything, the real rope is less likely to get snarled. And yes, bringing a few extra pieces on the rack does mean you'll use them. But if you seriously think that a new leader should pare down to a mini-rack on a big route because "light is right", you're as nuts as Bearbreeder. I'm not saying the new leader should go overboard. I'm simply saying that with more experience comes the knowledge required to make the right judgment calls about what to pare down off the "standard rack", and when.
In reply to: In reply to: The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead. Not sure how having more gear improves your skill level. Sometime, more is just that, more. More for the sake of more is called excess.
I never said more for the sake of more. I gave a few specific examples. You chose to ignore most of them. These are cases where additional gear can provide a little more of a safety net, leading to better outcomes for folks with less experience and skill. But taking a few extra pieces was not my main point. You can take all the gear in the world, and if you pick too hard an objective, you're going to get screwed.
My point is that new leaders should dial back their objectives, and dial up their safety net, relative to what they think they can maybe do. Then as they feel comfortable, they can push it further, and see where that takes them.
In reply to: In reply to: There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts. Maybe these guys had practice on several routes already. For all you know they were doing two or three ground to summit 5.8 routes a day at Cathedral Ledges and decided to do something on Canon. Again, this articles provides nothing about their back-ground.
Now you're just being a jerk. You snipped out the part of my post where I said:
In reply to: As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment.
and acting as if I were passing judgment.
Nice...
GO
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cracklover
Oct 26, 2011, 5:54 PM
Post #41 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: My point is simply that all the fancy gear n the world is no substute for skills Note i said REASONABLY fast and light in my original post One can bring everything one needs and still be reasonably light.. I can personally fit a synthetic puffy, a down puffy, a rain jacket, a survival bag, headlamp, snacks, water, aid kit, and more in a small bullet pack ... Etc ... If you cant do a rock climb in a non remote location without dragging up a shietload of gear (not just pro an ropes) then my suggestion would be to go on something more suitable ... You dont want to be one of those parties here aiding up every crux an causing traffic jams ... Or being recued because yr too slow and got benighted I always wonder about these people bringing big 40L+ packs up what are basically roadside rock multipitch routes .... cracklover wrote: bearbreeder wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help. To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it. If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber. Josh IMO it depends ... on the route and the level of commitement and the parties themselves ive seen people run up the apron with full 40L+ packs .. i askes whats inside and its got everything from sleeping bags to a light stove ... and yet they take 5+ hours to do a climb that should take no more than 2-3 max ... then there are the people with the big packs that take 12+ hours to run up the easiest 5.9 route up the chief, they dont know the descent and end up being rescued anyways then theres the reverse this year where some newer climbers tried to run up yak peak with no extra clothing, a single rope, and needed to be rescued by a comorant heli the more you bring, the slower you will be, and if yr whole bunch of new people, it doesnt really matter how much extra stuff you bring IMO ... youll just be slower and heavier ... ultimately its a judgement call, and if the climbers lacked the judgement to make that call, a shorter route or climbing with someone with more experience may have been a better idea bringing the kitchen sink, IMO, would not have helped I cannot say this strongly enough - I think you are dead wrong, and giving bad and dangerous advice. Newbies should underestimate their abilities, and overestimate the amount of gear they need. If that means only doing a shorter/easier route, like Whitney Gilman, when they *probably* could have done MG, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a full extra rope, rather than just a pull line, then that's a better choice. If that means making sure everyone in the party has enough gear to at least survive a night on the wall if doing something long, then that's the better choice. If that means taking a few extra pieces on the rack, when the leaders aren't that experienced, and maybe even having to dial down the difficulty because of the weight of the rack, then that's the better choice. If that means sacrificing some of your climbing time to practice rope handling, gear placing, and rappelling, then that's the better choice. The alternative is running a high risk of getting in over your head and not having the skills to deal. Or, worse, allowing your inexperience to lead you down the wrong path and getting seriously hurt or dead. There is plenty of time to get your systems dialed, thin down the rack, learn enough tricks to make do with less, and start pushing your limits. All of that naturally comes with experience if you give climbing the time and the attention it needs, and you have sufficient natural skill and smarts. As for the broader question, I'm not making any judgment of whether the party in question made the right call to go do this route with the gear and the experience they had. Without knowing them, and given the minimal detail in the articles, I don't think any of us has enough info to pass judment. GO
Yeah, a closer reading of your post makes me agree much more with what I think you are trying to say. If all you mean is that it is possible to go overboard, and more is not always better, while acknowledging that newer leaders should bring relatively more gear, and should pick relatively smaller objectives, then I'd agree 100%
GO
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chadnsc
Oct 26, 2011, 6:13 PM
Post #42 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: a light synth puffy jacket (13 oz) a headsheets survival blanket (3 oz) headlamp (3 oz) 1L of water for myself (partner had 1L as well) first aid kit (home made, basically climbing tape, gauzes, alcoholic hand cleaner that doubles as firestarter and TP that can be used as same) matches whistle gummy bears cell phone and likely a few other things i cant remember
Yeah that doesn't seem that light to me and yet it's still not adequate in many regards.
Then again if you're 'trashing' your gear like you say you need to if you're really using it then I suppose that's all you have.
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cogmog
Oct 26, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #43 of 66
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Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be. I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day. Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe! Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas. Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL!
Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn.
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notapplicable
Oct 27, 2011, 12:21 AM
Post #45 of 66
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jakedatc wrote: notapplicable wrote: bearbreeder wrote: [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/21o0o7n.jpg[/IMG] Face blurred to protect the identity of PAS user. also seems like one of those guys who likes walking around with their ATC hitting them in the junk all day.
Come on now, we've been over this a thousand times on here. Gear loops are for gear, tie in points are for softgoods and belay loops are for belay devices. Everything in it's proper place...
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jakedatc
Oct 27, 2011, 1:21 AM
Post #46 of 66
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cogmog wrote: Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be. I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day. Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe! Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas. Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL! Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn.
Cannon is in part of NH that has some of the worst weather in the US. at 4100' it is a pretty high elevation for the area and the night time temps are around freezing and many of the taller mountains have snow on them already
looked up Franconia's weather that day.. 50F day time 34 night time at around 3000' of elevation lower.
Yes they had an epic fail. but calling for rescue i think was a good idea. they were not prepared to spend the night on Cannon
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guangzhou
Oct 27, 2011, 12:22 PM
Post #47 of 66
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cogmog wrote: Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates.
Not sure top-roping will prepare you for leading more.
In reply to: ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be.
They should also know when it's time to call for a rescue.
In reply to: I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day.
Any climber doing multi-pitch should have enough sense to check the weather report more regularly. Sounds you bad weather follows you around, think I'll avoid climbing the same cliff on the days you're at the crags.
In reply to: Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe!
In reply to: Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas.
Rescues are for situation your can't get yourself out of. I think these three dying of hypothermia because they were to proud or macho to call for a rescue would have threaten access more.
In reply to: Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL!
A few years ago, I received some new cams from a company to field test, they even gave me a new harness and pack, I showed up to the cliff with all the above. My partner and I had a great day with exactly the gear above.
In reply to: Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn.
For someone who hates judging, you sure do a lot of it based on this one post. I don't know what these guys put up with before they called for a rescue. I do know they are not dead and have not lost any fingers.
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sp115
Oct 27, 2011, 12:57 PM
Post #48 of 66
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jakedatc wrote: cogmog wrote: Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be. I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day. Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe! Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas. Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL! Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn. Cannon is in part of NH that has some of the worst weather in the US. at 4100' it is a pretty high elevation for the area and the night time temps are around freezing and many of the taller mountains have snow on them already looked up Franconia's weather that day.. 50F day time 34 night time at around 3000' of elevation lower. Yes they had an epic fail. but calling for rescue i think was a good idea. they were not prepared to spend the night on Cannon
Without knowing more details it really is hard to figure out how badly they screwed up or what they should have done.
On one hand the climb is one of the most popular on the cliff and the weather comes in over the back, so you often don't get much warning if a local storm hits.
Then again on the other, the climb has been done car to car in less than an hour by more than a few hardmen*...
* one of which, I'm definitely not
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jakedatc
Oct 27, 2011, 1:07 PM
Post #49 of 66
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sp115 wrote: jakedatc wrote: cogmog wrote: Ok.. simply putting all the reteric asside. The fact remains, they needed to be rescued of a 5.8 which they averaged over two hours per pitch! To me, this defines "not ready" to lead!!! Stay on the top rope walls until you can trust your gear and head on long moderates. ANY climber who is on a multi 5.8 should be able to self rescue and be willing to leave gear if need be. I have gotten caught in lightning storms, hail storms and lack daylight at Senecan, Stone, Looking Glass and Lumpy Ridge to name a few ...on 8's and 9's and had to bail, leaving gear to recover the next day. Its called "climbing" people!! Its not supposed to be safe! Rescues are for EXTREME situations. These three are what closes access to great areas. Where ever I'm at, as soon as I see the bright and shiny unused rack of friends (with no nuts, hex's or tricams) comeout of the brand new backpack, I LEAVE the area!!! LOL! Hate to judge, but these three were not ready and were not willing to suffer a little to learn. Cannon is in part of NH that has some of the worst weather in the US. at 4100' it is a pretty high elevation for the area and the night time temps are around freezing and many of the taller mountains have snow on them already looked up Franconia's weather that day.. 50F day time 34 night time at around 3000' of elevation lower. Yes they had an epic fail. but calling for rescue i think was a good idea. they were not prepared to spend the night on Cannon Without knowing more details it really is hard to figure out how badly they screwed up or what they should have done. On one hand the climb is one of the most popular on the cliff and the weather comes in over the back, so you often don't get much warning if a local storm hits. Then again on the other, the climb has been done car to car in less than an hour by more than a few hardmen*... * one of which, I'm definitely not
all i was saying is that they were justified in calling for help once it got dark and they could not ascend or descend themselves.
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cogmog
Oct 27, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #50 of 66
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Guangzhou:
Ok,...Toprope walls offers people to place gear and do it safely until they are competant on good gear placement to get on the sharp end. "Weather reports": Weather blows in man and you should be ready. I can fit an emergency blanket, gloves, portaparka and hat in a watterbottle size stuff sack. I do check weather reports....but in many places weather blows in regardless! Ever climb at Lumpy ridge? Snows in July ...out of the blue. Great thing about CO is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes!
Reagardless of nit picking. The point remains, they were not ready and they were in above their heads.
I would have been pissed if I was behind them and most certainly would not have needed a rescue.
As far as you "field testing shiny gear" woopedy doo! I'm not a pro, nor do I own a climbing gym but MOST people know what I was getting at here.
As far as climbing being "safe" with a rope and rack! Duh...yeah...safer...but its still not "safe". If you think alpine climbing is safe, your going to get hurt or need a rescue.
Suffering is part of big wall and alpine cliimbing....if you don't know this, you shouldn't be there!
Cheers Mate
jakedatc:
Totally true mate! But the question remains....why were they not prepared?!! It just simply sounds like a three man party of inexperience. not to knock new climbers....but stay within your abilities. I wish them luck in the future and I hope they learned from it. It will probably make them better climbers and will hopefully send the message of "always cary an emergency kit". An always note where good rap points are in case you have to bail. Gear costs ALOT less than a rescue! As far as them getting off the wall safe. I'm glad they did. I have a feeling one or two of party was "freaking out" and could have hampered the ability to self rescue. If this was the case, that was another error. Don't take inexperience up a wall like that even if you are competant.
Cheers!
(This post was edited by cogmog on Oct 27, 2011, 2:10 PM)
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