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guangzhou
Oct 27, 2011, 1:54 PM
Post #51 of 66
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cogmog wrote: Guangzhou: LOL!
Glad you took well
In reply to: Ok,...Toprope walls offers people to place gear and do it safely until they are competant on good gear placement to get on the sharp end. "Weather reports": Weather blows in man and you should be ready. I can fit an emergency blanket, gloves, portaparka and hat in a watterbottle size stuff sack. I do check weather reports....but in many places weather blows in regardless! Ever climb at Lumpy ridge? Snows in July ...out of the blue. Great thing about CO is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes!  Reagardless of nit picking. The point remains, they were not ready and they were in above their heads.
I don't know what caused them to need rescuing, so I can't comment on what happened.
In reply to: I would have been pissed if I was behind them and most certainly would not have needed a rescue.
In reply to: As far as you "field testing shiny gear" woopedy doo! Most people know what I was getting at here. lol. As far as climbing being "safe" with a rope and rack! Duh...yeah...safer...but its still not "safe". If you think alpine climbing is safe, your going to get hurt or need a rescue. Suffering is part of big wall and alpine cliimbing....if you don't know this, you shouldn't be there!  Cheers Mate
I spent a month climbing on Lumpy Ridge and some other long Alpine rock in the area. Yeah, weather comes in, I agree, but I do what I can to avoid it.On Lumpy, the weather while I was there was mostly coming in in the afternoon, so I woke early, moved fast, and traveled as light as I could.
I do avoid Mountaineering, but I love Alpine rock, I don't suffer much when I do it. I just go out and enjoy myself. On Alpine rock routes, I do pack differently, that's for sure.
Big Walls, I haven't done many, less than 30 of them. While I'll agree they are hard work, I don't see it as suffering. Do I get tired and worn out, yes. I sleep well at night too. Often I stink.
Do I suffer, not really. If I felt I suffered on Big Walls, I would avoid them, something I don't do.
Actually, I'm working on a new Big Wall project this year. My goal, to establish a new big Wall safely. (No Search and Rescue team here in Indonesia.) Actually, I sort of miss knowing I can call Yosar before starting up on many of the multi-pitch I've done here. Especially on Big Walls where my partner and I are the only people around.
During my project, it will be hot and humid, I'll be tired, but I definitely won't be suffering. I avoid putting myself in situations where I know I'll suffer.
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sp115
Oct 27, 2011, 2:04 PM
Post #52 of 66
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jakedatc wrote: Ok..all i was saying is that they were justified in calling for help once it got dark and they could not ascend or descend themselves.
No real argument from me, even if it does turn out that they were complete idiots, I'm glad they're off and safe and no one was hurt in the rescue.
Huge props BTW, to the folks that performed the rescue. I'm genuinely impressed by the people that dedicate themselves to this type of work.
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cogmog
Oct 27, 2011, 2:59 PM
Post #53 of 66
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guangzhou wrote: cogmog wrote: Guangzhou: LOL! Glad you took well In reply to: Ok,...Toprope walls offers people to place gear and do it safely until they are competant on good gear placement to get on the sharp end. "Weather reports": Weather blows in man and you should be ready. I can fit an emergency blanket, gloves, portaparka and hat in a watterbottle size stuff sack. I do check weather reports....but in many places weather blows in regardless! Ever climb at Lumpy ridge? Snows in July ...out of the blue. Great thing about CO is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes! Reagardless of nit picking. The point remains, they were not ready and they were in above their heads. I don't know what caused them to need rescuing, so I can't comment on what happened. In reply to: I would have been pissed if I was behind them and most certainly would not have needed a rescue. Me too In reply to: As far as you "field testing shiny gear" woopedy doo! Most people know what I was getting at here. lol. As far as climbing being "safe" with a rope and rack! Duh...yeah...safer...but its still not "safe". If you think alpine climbing is safe, your going to get hurt or need a rescue. Suffering is part of big wall and alpine cliimbing....if you don't know this, you shouldn't be there! Cheers Mate I spent a month climbing on Lumpy Ridge and some other long Alpine rock in the area. Yeah, weather comes in, I agree, but I do what I can to avoid it.On Lumpy, the weather while I was there was mostly coming in in the afternoon, so I woke early, moved fast, and traveled as light as I could. I do avoid Mountaineering, but I love Alpine rock, I don't suffer much when I do it. I just go out and enjoy myself. On Alpine rock routes, I do pack differently, that's for sure. Big Walls, I haven't done many, less than 30 of them. While I'll agree they are hard work, I don't see it as suffering. Do I get tired and worn out, yes. I sleep well at night too. Often I stink. Do I suffer, not really. If I felt I suffered on Big Walls, I would avoid them, something I don't do. Actually, I'm working on a new Big Wall project this year. My goal, to establish a new big Wall safely. (No Search and Rescue team here in Indonesia.) Actually, I sort of miss knowing I can call Yosar before starting up on many of the multi-pitch I've done here. Especially on Big Walls where my partner and I are the only people around. During my project, it will be hot and humid, I'll be tired, but I definitely won't be suffering. I avoid putting myself in situations where I know I'll suffer.
Yep...No mountaineering for me either! I like sun and warm rock. Alpine is fun but I tend to "suffer" because I hate the cold...thus I guess it's not suffering for everyone. I'm nt a pro.. so for big walls there would be some expected suffering for me on a big wall. But it would be the good suffering!
Anyway, Good luck with your new route, it does not appear you are somone who would need a rescue.
Cheers
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moose_droppings
Oct 27, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #54 of 66
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This is it in a nutshell.
cracklover wrote: My point is that new leaders should dial back their objectives, and dial up their safety net, relative to what they think they can maybe do. GO
I'm glad that they didn't get hurt, but we don't know if spending the night out would have been lethal for them. I do believe an unplanned night out on the wall would make their climbing decisions more humble in the future.
Either way, unnecessary climbing deaths or unnecessary climbing rescues strain relations with the nonclimbing community.
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bearbreeder
Oct 27, 2011, 4:08 PM
Post #55 of 66
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i hate to say it but no death is necessary in climbing
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cracklover
Oct 27, 2011, 4:26 PM
Post #56 of 66
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moose_droppings wrote: This is it in a nutshell. cracklover wrote: My point is that new leaders should dial back their objectives, and dial up their safety net, relative to what they think they can maybe do. GO I'm glad that they didn't get hurt, but we don't know if spending the night out would have been lethal for them. I do believe an unplanned night out on the wall would make their climbing decisions more humble in the future. Either way, unnecessary climbing deaths or unnecessary climbing rescues strain relations with the nonclimbing community.
I agree. There's just not enough info out there to know. It could be equally true based on what I've read that they made a series of terrible decisions, or that they did everything pretty much perfectly, and just got the shit end of the stick.
Either way, I'm glad they're okay, and I do hope they learn the right lessons from their (mis)adventure.
GO
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LostinMaine
Oct 27, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #57 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: i hate to say it but no death is necessary in climbing
Someone didn't watch the first 5 minutes of Vertical Limit...
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moose_droppings
Oct 27, 2011, 7:26 PM
Post #58 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: i hate to say it but no death is necessary in climbing
You shouldn't hate to say it.
Given the circumstances, some are easier to understand IMO.
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guangzhou
Oct 28, 2011, 12:32 AM
Post #59 of 66
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cogmog wrote: guangzhou wrote: cogmog wrote: Guangzhou: LOL! Glad you took well In reply to: Ok,...Toprope walls offers people to place gear and do it safely until they are competant on good gear placement to get on the sharp end. "Weather reports": Weather blows in man and you should be ready. I can fit an emergency blanket, gloves, portaparka and hat in a watterbottle size stuff sack. I do check weather reports....but in many places weather blows in regardless! Ever climb at Lumpy ridge? Snows in July ...out of the blue. Great thing about CO is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes! Reagardless of nit picking. The point remains, they were not ready and they were in above their heads. I don't know what caused them to need rescuing, so I can't comment on what happened. In reply to: I would have been pissed if I was behind them and most certainly would not have needed a rescue. Me too In reply to: As far as you "field testing shiny gear" woopedy doo! Most people know what I was getting at here. lol. As far as climbing being "safe" with a rope and rack! Duh...yeah...safer...but its still not "safe". If you think alpine climbing is safe, your going to get hurt or need a rescue. Suffering is part of big wall and alpine cliimbing....if you don't know this, you shouldn't be there! Cheers Mate I spent a month climbing on Lumpy Ridge and some other long Alpine rock in the area. Yeah, weather comes in, I agree, but I do what I can to avoid it.On Lumpy, the weather while I was there was mostly coming in in the afternoon, so I woke early, moved fast, and traveled as light as I could. I do avoid Mountaineering, but I love Alpine rock, I don't suffer much when I do it. I just go out and enjoy myself. On Alpine rock routes, I do pack differently, that's for sure. Big Walls, I haven't done many, less than 30 of them. While I'll agree they are hard work, I don't see it as suffering. Do I get tired and worn out, yes. I sleep well at night too. Often I stink. Do I suffer, not really. If I felt I suffered on Big Walls, I would avoid them, something I don't do. Actually, I'm working on a new Big Wall project this year. My goal, to establish a new big Wall safely. (No Search and Rescue team here in Indonesia.) Actually, I sort of miss knowing I can call Yosar before starting up on many of the multi-pitch I've done here. Especially on Big Walls where my partner and I are the only people around. During my project, it will be hot and humid, I'll be tired, but I definitely won't be suffering. I avoid putting myself in situations where I know I'll suffer. Yep...No mountaineering for me either! I like sun and warm rock. Alpine is fun but I tend to "suffer" because I hate the cold...thus I guess it's not suffering for everyone. I'm nt a pro.. so for big walls there would be some expected suffering for me on a big wall. But it would be the good suffering! Anyway, Good luck with your new route, it does not appear you are somone who would need a rescue. Cheers
I am no pro either.
As for someone who doesn't need a rescue, I hope to never need one. I think all climbers hope to never need one. With that said, as a climber, and being human, something, or a series of small somethings, could cause me to need rescuing.
One thing is for sure, I need to do more training with my local climbing partners here on self rescue.
They plenty of long rock rocks around that are sunny and warm.
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guangzhou
Oct 28, 2011, 1:30 AM
Post #60 of 66
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Almost forgot, I don't like the cold much either. I've lived near the equator for about a decade now. Get back to the states every year for a few weeks of climbing.
My wife, who is Indonesia, has to put on her fleece every-time the sun dips behind a cloud on those trips. Last summer at lover's leap, the summer before in Colorado, she ha her fleece with her everyday. A pile cap too.
While I would love to climb in Patagonia, I will avoid it just because of the cold.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 28, 2011, 1:32 AM)
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jacques
Oct 28, 2011, 3:18 PM
Post #61 of 66
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olderic wrote: jacques wrote: Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). a Small correction in the name of accuracy - though lord know that trying to maintain accuracy here would take an army of typing monkeys. The route that accident happened on was Sam's Swan Song (not Duet) and the victim was a Dartmouth student - Surgeon General Koop's son. This was back in the days before cams or nuts - pitons were the standard and he pried off a loose block while nailing it.
It is sam sang song. We also had an accident on that route, less severe. A loose block felt on the hand of the leader. He had enought reflex to redirect the rock so we didn't receive it on the belay. With two injure climber, the rap would have been harder. Base took the direction of the operation. It was easier to rap than to walk off. Perfect self rescue.
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olderic
Oct 28, 2011, 3:23 PM
Post #62 of 66
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jacques wrote: olderic wrote: jacques wrote: Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). a Small correction in the name of accuracy - though lord know that trying to maintain accuracy here would take an army of typing monkeys. The route that accident happened on was Sam's Swan Song (not Duet) and the victim was a Dartmouth student - Surgeon General Koop's son. This was back in the days before cams or nuts - pitons were the standard and he pried off a loose block while nailing it. It is sam sang song. We also had an accident on that route, less severe. A loose block felt on the hand of the leader. He had enought reflex to redirect the rock so we didn't receive it on the belay. With two injure climber, the rap would have been harder. Base took the direction of the operation. It was easier to rap than to walk off. Perfect self rescue.
Sam's has fallen off most peoples' radar these days. Besides the Koop fatality in the late 60's there was a double fatality in ~1973. Lots of loose rock (duh - it's cannon) but there were several pitches of quite nice climbing.
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sp115
Oct 28, 2011, 5:55 PM
Post #63 of 66
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olderic wrote: jacques wrote: olderic wrote: jacques wrote: Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). a Small correction in the name of accuracy - though lord know that trying to maintain accuracy here would take an army of typing monkeys. The route that accident happened on was Sam's Swan Song (not Duet) and the victim was a Dartmouth student - Surgeon General Koop's son. This was back in the days before cams or nuts - pitons were the standard and he pried off a loose block while nailing it. It is sam sang song. We also had an accident on that route, less severe. A loose block felt on the hand of the leader. He had enought reflex to redirect the rock so we didn't receive it on the belay. With two injure climber, the rap would have been harder. Base took the direction of the operation. It was easier to rap than to walk off. Perfect self rescue. Sam's has fallen off most peoples' radar these days. Besides the Koop fatality in the late 60's there was a double fatality in ~1973. Lots of loose rock (duh - it's cannon) but there were several pitches of quite nice climbing.
Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)?
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olderic
Oct 28, 2011, 6:12 PM
Post #64 of 66
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sp115 wrote: Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)?
I haven't done it in a long long time *(30+ years) so I'm not really sure. It does seem to have developed a reputation but then again most of the moderate routes on Cannon have had incidents in the past 10 years. Try asking on neclimbs and you will probably get someone with recent experience. Duet - near by - continues to be popular although I think most people just go to the top of the lower buttress and don't do the upper part of the climb.
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jacques
Oct 29, 2011, 12:56 AM
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sp115 wrote: Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)?
I climbed the four first pitch twice and bail...one because a thunderstorm and the other an accident.
I definitely want to go to the top. Call me next spring or a warm day in week end this fall.
It is doable. as for british were coming, a 5.7 for 5.10 leader. Consolation prize is kind of sand stuff in the fifth pitch and loose block at the top. the rope can dislodge them if you don't care. Falling aspiration is mostly rotten rock in the second pitch, with hard route finding. Tripple S is more piece of rock that broke when you load it. three point of contact as you climb is mandatory in the route. You have to look, listen and load slowly.
(This post was edited by jacques on Oct 29, 2011, 1:03 AM)
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sp115
Oct 29, 2011, 12:42 PM
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jacques wrote: sp115 wrote: Always wanted to do Sam's. Is it significantly looser than other, more popular route (Lakeview, Consolation Prize)? I climbed the four first pitch twice and bail...one because a thunderstorm and the other an accident. I definitely want to go to the top. Call me next spring or a warm day in week end this fall...
Thanks, it's back on the list and I'll keep that offer in mind.
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