Why does it matter? Is it harder for a black guy to climb a mountain than a white guy?

Why does it matter? Is it harder for a black guy to climb a mountain than a white guy?

Why does it matter? Is it harder for a black guy to climb a mountain than a white guy?

Denali saw her first human in her summit in 1913. Considering the level of prejudice and discrimination this land has had, I would say that if an african american has been to her top before say, about the last 10 years, then yes - it was probably harder for that person to achieve the goal than a white person. Perhaps not physically, but there's more that goes into an expedition than the physical climbing.

Considering the fact that, until very recently, in some areas of this country a black man had to be worried about being beaten to death and hung from a tree for daring to or inadvertantly offending some white person, I think that african-american "firsts" of ANY kind are laudible.

The same goes for a million other sports, and there are sports with a disproportionately high number of african americans as well. I don't think that climbers are racist, chasing people away because of their skin color, I think there are cultural differences that cause people of different backgrounds to gravitate toward different sports. I fail to see this as a problem; people should do what they want and everyone else should shut up about it.

Justice Roberts said it well - “The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

Unless you were a very rich white man, historically you had very little chance of climbing a peak.

The same goes for a million other sports, and there are sports with a disproportionately high number of african americans as well. I don't think that climbers are racist, chasing people away because of their skin color, I think there are cultural differences that cause people of different backgrounds to gravitate toward different sports. I fail to see this as a problem; people should do what they want and everyone else should shut up about it.

Justice Roberts said it well - “The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

Edit-- That's just my $.02, I'd rather not get into a race debate on the internet. I'm not racist, the few people I've met who are racist are almost universally disliked (and hold job titles like "dishwasher"), and I just have a hard time believing that racism is a rampant problem in the US today. In my view, pointing out racial differences (which is not the same thing as pointing out cultural differences!!) even with good intent does more harm than good.

, and I just have a hard time believing that racism is a rampant problem in the US today. In my view, pointing out racial differences (which is not the same thing as pointing out cultural differences!!) even with good intent does more harm than good.

...I don't think that climbers are racist...

I also own the country's tallest indoor climbing facility here in dallas that I use for training and if your ever here come check it out.

Hey climbing peeps, I'm trying to help out a friend with a project. Does anyone out there know who the first African American to climb Denali (Mt. McKinley) was? Thanks in advance.

What the hell is an "African American"? What if he wasnt born in Africa or speak any of its dialects? Would that still count?

What if he has really light skin because he is a descendant of European colonists but his family has lived in Africa for hundreds of years?

And what difference does it make where his family is from or what color his skin is?

Or are you trying to point out that there is a difference and thats its somehow harder for him to climb because of any of the above reasons?




You should be asking yourself.. why would someone ask a dumb fucking question like this in the first place.

hobgoblin11,

I'm so sorrY I offended you. There was none intended.

maldaly

What the hell is ...this in the first place.

Why does it matter? Is it harder for a black guy to climb a mountain than a white guy?

And what difference does it make where his family is from or what color his skin is?

Or are you trying to point out that there is a difference and thats its somehow harder for him to climb because of any of the above reasons?

As to why it matters it's important for us to realize in that same year millions of African-Americans couldn't even vote in this country and less than a decade earlier several National Parks were racially segregated. At a time when people of color in the U.S. seldom ventured out into wilderness areas for fear racially motivated violence few could have dreamed of ever scaling to the highest summit in North America. Crenchaw's climb marked a seminal point history when for the first time a black person in this country had the leisure time, financial resources, the social connections, skills and the inclination to exercise the right many of us take for granted today, the right to do what ever the hell we want to.

You should be asking yourself.. why would someone askobject to a dumb fucking question like this in the first place.

I came into the climbing community expecting this to be the LAST place Id see this race-card bullshit being played out. Thats why I object to the question.

It sure is a good thing all you "well-intentioned" folks are watching out for these "african-americans".. whatever that is and any other oppressed hyphenated-americans.

Im sure ALL your roads are paved with gold.

All these idiotic hyphenated-american terms and questions like the OPs do is guarantee fodder for racist jackasses who look for differences because of skin color.

Nice job to all you for not only dragging the problem on further but justifying why it IS a stupid question.

and to the OP.. there will ALWAYS be racists of every color.. in every country. Rock climbing is probably one of the most individualistic sports out there and would more than likely be one of the least racist clique's a climber of any color would find. I will say this.. I think you'd be better off with real, in your face racists.. at least you know where you stand.. vs these closet racists who come running to defend you and think you need their "help". (and you notice how quickly they came).

A lot of white men have trouble believing that racism, sexism, and overall oppression are problems. That's because, well, they are white men and have never been confronted with it.

Josh

Justice Roberts got it wrong.

Ignoring an extremely negative history only perpetuates the effects of that history. Acknowledging the history (and thereby endeavoring to remedy its effects) requires acknowledging that racial injustice was a huge factor present during the formation of and maintenance of our nation, institutionalized as a matter of law until very recently (for over 300 years, with institutional changes occurring only within the last 50 years).

It is both naive and callous for a society to say to its oppressed minorities, after over 300 years of systematic and institutional oppression, rape, murder, and deprivation, including over 200 years of forced bondage, that "we no longer care about race, so let's no-one talk about it now."

As to Black climbers, I myself rarely see another at the gym or crag. It is without dispute that climbing is historically a White man's game, so to speak, and it is also true that people in general are more likely to try something new when others with whom they can identify in some way are participating in that thing.

In my opinion, the reason that Black and other non-White climbers may be under-represented is not as much because of a cultural difference, but because climbing is a historically White predominated sport, and because potential climbers see only White people climbing, and aren't as attracted to it as they otherwise might be; given the social history of our nation, I'm sure that you can understand this phenomenon.

Also, consider this; there are plenty of non-White climbers out there; how often do you see them depicted in the climbing media?

So brave.

Sorry.. i didnt grow up in the US. I simply fail to comprehend the fascination with racism or with all these white people trying to help out blacks every time they perceive an injustice. They treat blacks like fucking children.. come running to their aid. "uh oh.. white guy and black guy arguing.. must be some racism going on.. better call the 'help the black folk police' "

Im pretty sure blacks are completely capable of defending their own positions.

Ive been a lot of places on this planet most of these assclowns have no idea what real racism is.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but it keeps getting bumped...


I of course concede this point; just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That said, I believe most people would notice if racism/sexism were popular, rampant, or institutionalized in today's society whether they were the target of it or not. Racism is still around yeah, but it's on its way out.



I'm not for a second saying we should ignore that history, or trying diminish its significance; racism is an awful, horrible thing that unfortunately has had a huge role in this country's history. My view: The worst possible solution to the all problems caused by racism, is more racism. Discrimination based on race, gender, or any other trait that people have no control over, for any reason, is fundamentally evil in every sense of the word, and the practice cannot be eradicated from this planet quickly enough. By drawing distinctions between different groups of people, you drive those people apart and gain nothing in return. If you believe that a group of people require special treatment, by definition you don't consider them to be equals.

I have a huge problem with looking at people in groups rather than as individuals, and shockabu's post about sickle cell anemia is a perfect example of why. You either have sickle cell or you don't; if you climb a mountain with the condition you deserve recognition for that fact, if you don't then you don't. There are blacks who are privileged and whites who aren't; if someone comes from a poor family and goes on to do great things, they deserve recognition for that, regardless of ethnicity. If you look at people in groups it's easy to turn tendencies into absolutes, which unfairly skews your perception of every individual in that group.

Wow. You're kind of a jerk.

Josh

Secondly, discrimination still exists, but is often more subtle. There usually isn't a burning cross on someone's lawn anymore.

Josh

I don't think you quite understand.

I understand perfectly, I simply disagree. Should we keep track of the first summits by gingers as well?

I understand perfectly, I simply disagree. Should we keep track of the first summits by gingers as well?

My view celebrates differences more than yours-- I see an individual, you see a "straight middle class african-american male".

I understand perfectly, I simply disagree. Should we keep track of the first summits by gingers as well?

My view celebrates differences more than yours-- I see an individual, you see a "straight middle class african-american male".

... Racism is still around yeah, but it's on its way out.

I understand perfectly, I simply disagree. Should we keep track of the first summits by gingers as well?

My view celebrates differences more than yours-- I see an individual, you see a "straight middle class african-american male".

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best reply evah!!

While we're at it, let's take away Jackie Robinson's achievement of being the first black baseball player, too, because, you know, there were lots of people who had played baseball before.

I don't know dude, the whole seeing people as individuals goes only as far as the individual goes. Sometimes the argument is in between the lines and sometimes the sum of the problem is greater than the individual parts added together. When I see a black person I see a person because my era is different than my grandfather's, but when I look at history I see a much different picture.

How can you see an individual and not consider their gender, race, and after some amount of interaction their probable or actual socio-economic standing and sexual preference? All of those things are part of people.

Mostly it doesn't matter what some particular individual sees (like you) unless you happen to be a very influential individual (yes, I'm saying you don't matter). However, there are still a lot of people who see differences and discriminate against them and/or who feel discriminated against because of them.

Are you saying that when you meet a black male that you don't notice that he's black? I am sorry I can't do that. My eyesight is just fine, thank you. I feel what you are doing is not treating people as individuals but ignoring their individuality.

It's just that I can notice differences without treating those differences unfairly or with any bias.

If the all ginger climbing club of Edinburgh wanted to find the first ginger to climb Denali and celebrate that achievement, why would you care? Let them take pride in their identity, it doesn't affect you one bit.

That's precisely the point.

I think the difference is that you see a person mostly born with their identity, I see them create an identity from what they are born with and the life they live. To reduce a person to the circumstances of their birth is demeaning and disrespectful.

Sort of like having different bathrooms for whites and blacks, as long as one's not nicer than the other? It's not possible to see two different groups of people without making comparisons and judgments between the two.

... this race-card bullshit being played out. Thats why I object to the question.

Could you please explain to me how asking the question "Does anyone out there know who the first African American to climb Denali (Mt. McKinley) was?" is "race0card bullshit?" This is a serious question, as I am trying to understand where your mind is at.

.

Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Racism is unique to cultures not peoples. As are socioeconimic problems.. to imply that every white man was a racist in 1964 or every black man was some oppressed down trodden minority makes one no better than they people they accuse.

What was the assumption here..? That there as a group of KKK down at base camp.. chewing on his ropes? Or a burning cross waiting for him at the top. Or that people refused to help him climb because of his skin color? Denali is rugged and difficult now.. that land and its people are difficult and rugged.. and have little time for nuances like racism. People who climb mountains and those who support them have little time for such nuances... and if even they do they would be quickly dispelled when your lives are in each others hands.

ANY difficuly endeavor is performed through perseverance and character.. not through melanin count.

That's an interesting statement, because the act itself is due to perseverance and character. But the black man has to overcome objectives - even today in our age of racism being on the way out - that a white man simply does not encounter.

Keep drinking that koolaid. What are these barriers? Getting into college with a lower GPA than a white guy? I guarantee that millions of blacks were born into more favorable socioeconomic circumstances than I or anyone I grew up with was.

Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Racism is unique to cultures not peoples. As are socioeconimic problems.. to imply that every white man was a racist in 1964 or every black man was some oppressed down trodden minority makes one no better than they people they accuse.

What was the assumption here..? That there as a group of KKK down at base camp.. chewing on his ropes? Or a burning cross waiting for him at the top. Or that people refused to help him climb because of his skin color? Denali is rugged and difficult now.. that land and its people are difficult and rugged.. and have little time for nuances like racism. People who climb mountains and those who support them have little time for such nuances... and if even they do they would be quickly dispelled when your lives are in each others hands.

Climbing Denali.. or ANY mountain is a an incredible feat for ANY man.. dont belittle it by bringing the color of ones skin into a place where it simply doesnt bleong.

ANY difficuly endeavor is performed through perseverance and character.. not through melanin count.

If he climbed Denali... its because he was a great man not because he was a great black man



and when the day comes that whites are the minority and I'm afforded the honor to be the first to perform something incredible.. I REALLY hope people would remember me for being the first man to accomplish it.. not the first white man

Studies have shown that short men are discriminated against even moreso than minorities when it comes to employment and promotions. Better looking people get promoted more easily. We live in an imperfect world, but I fail to believe we will make any progress by reversing the discrimination. I prefer to be colorblind.

To be clear, my remark did say "even today."

But no...no racism here in the USA anymore.

I don't understand why you are getting offended (I know I said I am done with this thread). Why can't racism and discrimination be talked about without people getting up in arms about it? Just because racism towards black people is being talked about, no one is saying that other groups have not had to endure discrimination as well. No one is saying that as a white man, you have participated in this discrimination.

I grew up a white, middle to upper middle class, white male. I am fairly intelligent, fairly attractive (IMO), average height, from a loving family. I am pretty sure that I have never been discriminated against for anything. I am also pretty sure that I have never discriminated (at least to my knowledge) against anyone else for their skin color, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, or lack of charismatic good looks. That being said, I don't see why discrimination can't be talked about without people taking offense to it, or thinking that they or people they know haven't had just as hard a life.

Josh

I can only speak for myself. I get "up in arms" about it because I grew up amongst poor white trash to be perfectly honest. I saw how some of us struggled to rise above it but very few of us made it out. Only unusual intelligence and drive got me where I am. To have additional barriers put in our way because we were white was ridiculous. I would have loved to gotten more scholarships to go to college, but I'm not a minority or a woman. I had to work full time and it took me 8 very long years. I'm a better person for it and I appreciate what I have all the more, but I sure wouldn't chose that path for my kids. Go spend a week volunteering on a reservation and you might think a bit differently about things.

Why does this get you so angry? Can you just not acknowledge that African Americans are really under-represented in the American climbing community, and that recognizing African-American achievements in climbing might inspire greater minority participation? Indeed, that seeing an African-American dude summit some high mountains might show minority kids that they can have the opportunity to do something incredible like that, if they work at it?

Do you also object to people recording women's ascents or publicizing women completing hard climbs?

Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Just amazing! I work all over Latin America and this exact thing is what I see used to justify the most incredible kind of racism.

I can only speak for myself. I get "up in arms" about it because I grew up amongst poor white trash to be perfectly honest. I saw how some of us struggled to rise above it but very few of us made it out. Only unusual intelligence and drive got me where I am. To have additional barriers put in our way because we were white was ridiculous. I would have loved to gotten more scholarships to go to college, but I'm not a minority or a woman. I had to work full time and it took me 8 very long years. I'm a better person for it and I appreciate what I have all the more, but I sure wouldn't chose that path for my kids. Go spend a week volunteering on a reservation and you might think a bit differently about things.

Just amazing! I work all over Latin America and this exact thing is what I see used to justify the most incredible kind of racism.