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alpinerock
Jun 30, 2003, 5:56 PM
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Hey, i was talking to one of my friends ond i told him that i was going to start doing trad climbing, but the thing is I'm a little short on cash(only being 14) so he told me about some of his friends that don't have cams in their rack just nuts chocks and hex's(and some tricams) and was wondering what the pros/cons would be of such a rack
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minnesotatrad
Jun 30, 2003, 6:04 PM
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When you are just starting out you don't really need any cams. You should get good at placing passive pro first. I have lead lots of short routes on only nuts and hexs. Cams do come in handy when your leading harder routes, but at first its ok to just have some nuts and hexs.
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bandycoot
Jun 30, 2003, 6:10 PM
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Cams are a great first piece on a route. If you aren't familiar with this, you need to learn, but if a belayer is standing in a non ideal place (like away from the wall), and the leader falls or pulls the rope tight, it actually puts an UPWARD force on the pieces and can lift passive gear right out from the bottom up (if it isn't placed well)! This can be prevented a number of ways, but this is one of the reasons that I love cams: they are multidirectional if in a good placement! I'm sure that tricams have the same potential and I've heard that they are excellent pieces but I've never used them personally. Leading on a camless rack isn't bad, just different and you need to know what to look for. I've seen a lot of new climbers do placements that just lift out because they don't expect the upward force. The placement looks great (and is for a purely downward force) but when the rope goes taut from a fall or pulling the rope up the piece comes right out and heads for the belayer at high speeds... You really have to see it to understand how it happens...
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sspssp
Jun 30, 2003, 6:12 PM
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Learning to place passive pro isn't such a bad idea. Tri-cams are actually very versatile. The biggest problem with tri-cams is that they take some fiddling, especially if you are new to placing them. However, if you are starting out trad leading, you are probably in the ~5.8 and under range. For most climbs in this grade, you can place a lot of your gear from very relaxed stances (climbs in this range tend to be blocky and have good ledges/stances for feet) which makes it easier to get tri-cams in.
Gear is actually very arbritrary. You can safely climb in just tennis shoes (no rack, no rope). It just means that what is a "safe" route for your experience and gear is going to be lower (like fourth class, for instance). So if you have a limited rack, you might have to be a little more choosy in what you get on.
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rrrADAM
Jun 30, 2003, 6:17 PM
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While I have about 30 cams, I still rarely use them. 95% of my placements are stoppers, I own well over 60. I even bought hexes recently, as I preffer passive over active pro.
Pros:
-Develope keen eye at placing pro quicker.
-Save $$$
-Not subject to machanical failure (rare though)
-Save weight
-Bomber
-Will not walk
Cons:
-Restricted to shape and size of weekness in rock
-May zipper from bottom up if belayer in not directly under piece during a fall. (first piece should be multidirectional)
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reborne
Jun 30, 2003, 6:38 PM
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if you know anyone that works in a shop and can get the pro deal from black diamond that they are offering right now you can get like 4 cams for like a 100 bucks
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knuckles
Jun 30, 2003, 6:59 PM
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I have to say that learning to lead without cams has some plusses...
-passive pro takes longer to place, sure, but this will keep you easier routes for a while... which is a good thing.
-passive pro tends to be lighter, which means you can carry more, which means you can sew up your line and get lots of practice setting protectition.
-passive pro, while perhaps harder to set, is easier to inspect... bad placements are more evident with simple pro.
-nothing beats a good stopper placement. I'd rather huck onto a good #9 or 11 than some suspect bolt any day.
Generally speaking, I think that the skills you develop placing stoppers and hexes will make you better with active cams... but not the other way around. Cams are great, don't get me wrong, but too many people get out on the sharp end with them without really learning how to place them. Whatever you decide, spend some time on the ground practicing before you ever tie in. Do some practice leads on toprope with someone more experienced checking your stuff. Don't be ashamed to be back at the bottom of the difficulty ratings because you are starting over, playing an entirely different game.
....and tricams, I love 'em.... but for some reason they always look weird. Get dialed with the hexes first.
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davidji
Jun 30, 2003, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: Hey, i was talking to one of my friends ond i told him that i was going to start doing trad climbing, but the thing is I'm a little short on cash(only being 14) so he told me about some of his friends that don't have cams in their rack just nuts chocks and hex's(and some tricams) and was wondering what the pros/cons would be of such a rack
Note the comment on the hexes being "nearly useless" in this trip report from Brutus, for a long, classic 5.7 route.
Passive pro is great and all that. Few things are more solid than a nut in a keyhole slot. But there are reasons most of us carry cams.
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pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 7:17 PM
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14? I wish I had gotten started in climbing and leading that young. Thats awesome. Looking at you screen name "alpine rock" I assume you have alpine aspirations. If that is the case less cams can be a good thing. I don't really believe you need to learn to place passive pro first but thats the way I learned and for a while I only trusted nuts for a fall (and those are still the only pieces I have fallen on). I think learning to place the best piece for a given option is the best way to learn. However, I think people recommend learning passive first because it can get easy to fall into a pattern of placing an SLCD in every situation and never learning good passive pro placement. SLCD's aren't magic though and just because there is a crack (bigger then a #13 nut) doesn't mean they are the best piece. They also don't magically place themselves in perfect position and it's often hard to evaluate the lobes of the smaller cams (stuff in the blue TCU, green alien range). Sometimes you need to fiddle with SLCD's, cam and recam, flip them over for a better fit, and you have to factor in walking. Unless, I'm placing in a perfectly even/paralel crack I usually have to mess with a SLCD almost as much as a tri-cam (but I really like tricams so I guess I am more proficient at placing them). I see a lot of people placing SLCD's in flares and pockets where the cam just looks terrible and is begging for a tricam conversely I have a partner that likes to place tricams in a perfectly parralel cracks and save the SLCD's for belays (weird!!!) but he learned to lead on tri-cams and nuts only so he feels comfortable with tricams in most situations.
So you can definitely lead without SLCD's and in the end you will probably be a better leader and have a better eye for placements learning to lead on a completely passive rack and you'll also be better set up for alpine routes where you can really save some weight if you take tricams over SLCD's. The best part is with some careful shopping a passive rack with a full set of tricams (.5-7 $255) and hexes (1-11 BD $125) and 2 sets of nuts ($100) will probably only set you back about as much as a full set of BD Camalots.
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rockprodigy
Jun 30, 2003, 7:18 PM
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I too was once a teenager eager to get into trad, but with limited fundage. I recommend saving all your paper route money, and buying a little bit of gear at a time. Start with stoppers...you could get some hexes too, but I think they're a waste of money.
Don't skimp either. Eventually, you might get good and you'll have an entire rack of crappy trango cams you spent hundreds of $$ on that you have to replace with camalots. Just start getting camalots from the get-go. It will take you longer to build a whole rack, but in the end you'll be glad you did.
Oh and to pre-empt...everyone who says camalots are too expensive are the suckers that wasted all their paper route money on forged friends and are pissed they have to keep saving money so they can get the camalots.
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rockprodigy
Jun 30, 2003, 7:24 PM
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Wait a second, I made some assumptions here without asking you first:
Do you want to be a good trad climber, or are you just interested in climbng 5.7/5.8?
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pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: Oh and to pre-empt...everyone who says camalots are too expensive are the suckers that wasted all their paper route money on forged friends and are pissed they have to keep saving money so they can get the camalots.
Thats funny. Seriously, camalots are great in the .75-3 size range above or below that I'd rather have Friends or Aliens or save the the cash and go with Trango flex cams and take an extra road trip. Take a look at the range of the bigger Camalots vs. bigger friends, there isn't much difference aside from the fact the Camalots are less stable and weight a lot more. On the smaller end they are terribly wide for there size and still walk more then aliens.
EDITED to note: Camalots also have the cheapest wires of any cam and need frequent replacement at $8 a pop.
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tradklime
Jun 30, 2003, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: Oh and to pre-empt...everyone who says camalots are too expensive are the suckers that wasted all their paper route money on forged friends and are pissed they have to keep saving money so they can get the camalots.
Or they had a full set and sold them because they are too heavy and bulky.
Consider looking for deals, such as acmeclimbing.com. You won't end up spending that much more money and will be happier in the end to have some cams.
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rockprodigy
Jun 30, 2003, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: Thats funny. Seriously, camalots are great in the .75-3 size range above or below that I'd rather have Friends or Aliens or save the the cash and go with Trango flex cams and take an extra road trip.
In reply to: Or they had a full set and sold them because they are too heavy and bulky
Yeah, you guys maybe right...I'm still waiting for a response to this:
In reply to: Wait a second, I made some assumptions here without asking you first: Do you want to be a good trad climber, or are you just interested in climbng 5.7/5.8?
If the answer is the latter, listen to those guys, since I only know about being good.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 9:01 PM
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First off save your money for a while and just go climbing with someone with a good rack. Play with their gear and see what appeals to you.
Also understand that alpine routes are "very" unforgiving of mistakes. Falling on lead (and often following to) in the mountains is almost always a bad idea.
If you have a regular climbing partner with a rack, then your going to want to supplement his rack so that between the two of you your set with an ideal rack.
Buy cosmetic seconds.
Learning with stoppers first is a good idea.
I hate hexes, (my first rack was roped stoppers and hexes so I may be biased)
Tri cams are a little better then hexes
Don’t think much of complete sets of anything.
Agree with pico on .75 to 3 for camalots, aliens below, 1 #4 tech friends for above.
The large majority of the time I don’t carry anything above a #2 camalot.
My suggested beginners rack(building towards an ideal rack with no waste)
20 caribiners
10 shoulder slings
A set and a half of stoppers, knock off the largest one and the smallest two.
Yellow and red aliens
.75, 1, 2 camalots
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bandycoot
Jun 30, 2003, 9:39 PM
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i think that one of the best deals on nuts is found at www.rei.com Click "climbing" and "rock protection" and look at the smiles. They are the exact same size as the BD nuts except they are colored which is mildly convenient at times. Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead. This should cost you less than $40/set.
Josh
edit:
Here's the link:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=40000008001&langId=-1&storeId=8001&categoryId=22000167
The 5-13 cost 39.37 without tax and shipping. If you're getting a full set of tricams, don't get two sets of nuts. If you aren't then just invest the money now.
If you climb with only passive pro, long slings are your friend!
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ptone
Jun 30, 2003, 10:02 PM
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In reply to: Wait a second, I made some assumptions here without asking you first: Do you want to be a good trad climber, or are you just interested in climbng 5.7/5.8?
For a second I forgot that for some, 'good' means how good your toys are, not how good you are with your toys...!
For me, my partner/mentor got me started with only passive gear, cause it forced me to pay more attention to the placement, the fit, the rock on hand etc, and as things got stiffer, learning to look at a crack et al and have a fair guess at the size I'm going to need to save energy!
I've led some 5.10 with just nuts and hexes, most of our climbs here have a bolt or two on face linkups, but that usually doesn't really make anything safer but that move or two.
I may get burned for this, but IMO buying a whack of cams, even the best ones isn't gonna make you a better climber. Getting to know yourself and the rock, and then pushing the envelope is.
peace,
-p
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Thats funny. Seriously, camalots are great in the .75-3 size range above or below that I'd rather have Friends or Aliens or save the the cash and go with Trango flex cams and take an extra road trip. In reply to: Or they had a full set and sold them because they are too heavy and bulky Yeah, you guys maybe right...I'm still waiting for a response to this: In reply to: Wait a second, I made some assumptions here without asking you first: Do you want to be a good trad climber, or are you just interested in climbng 5.7/5.8?If the answer is the latter, listen to those guys, since I only know about being good.
Good is a meaningless term. Who are you competing against? Are you getting paid for "being good"? You do realize the routes you consider test pieces today might only be considered moderates in 50 years? Most of us climb for fun (blanket statement that you can choose to pick apart as you wish). This guy is 14 so maybe he has a chance at being sponsored and paid to climb but chances are he won't be one of the top 100 climbers in the world that make a living off climbing. It's nice to spray about your #'s but who really cares?? I don't. Anyway, alpinerock has to start somewhere and starting at the bottom and working your up isn't a bad thing. He shouldn't be jumping on routes he can't handle. Remember the first rule of Pruess "One should not only be equal to any climb that one undertakes, but be more than equal to it." Thats definitely good advice for a beginning leader.
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 3:06 AM
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Just as a word of advice. The smileys are good so keep this a secret because I haven't had time to by a second set yet and I got my set my set last year to replace my standard BD's. The colors are nice to have I oftnen look at a crack and say "thats a red #6" or a blue #7. And as a side note ABC (same sizes) use the same colors. I only noticed that while using my partners ABC's.
The only thing I don't like about the ABC's is they have a longer stem then smileys. This appears good at first but I lost a #11 the other day because the wire is so long it didn't provide any stiffness as I tried to work it out of a crack it fell deeper into. It was probably removable but I couldn't work in the corner so I gave up. I don't think this would have been a problem with the BD's or Smileys shorter cables.
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: ...buying a whack of cams, even the best ones isn't gonna make you a better climber.... peace, -p
I never said it would. However, on harder stuff you can't use both hands to place gear which eliminates tri-cams, trango flexcams (too torsionally flimsy), and most of the bigger hexes.
In reply to: Lol, more than anything I want to take up trad to have fun and to me having fun includes improving.
Right on, man. Have fun out there...take the advice of these other guys, they probably know where to get the good deals.
In reply to: Good is a meaningless term. Who are you competing against? Are you getting paid for "being good"?
You confirmed my suspicions. I'm competing against myself and the rock. I don't get paid, I don't want to get paid, but I get a great deal of satisfaction from pulling of a hard lead. I also get the respect and admiration of my peers, which is also very satisfying.
In reply to: You do realize the routes you consider test pieces today might only be considered moderates in 50 years?
How true. To me, right now, it is still a great challenge, and isn't that the whole point of sport? To challenge ourselves beyond the ho-hum of everyday life?
In reply to: chances are he won't be one of the top 100 climbers in the world that make a living off climbing
Who said anything about that? If he got sponsored, he wouldn't need to worry about buying cams! He'd get them for free. I'm just talking about pushing yourself on difficult rock versus going out to have fun on moderate stuff.
In reply to: nice to spray about your #'s but who really cares??
Who's spraying numbers?
In reply to: Remember the first rule of Pruess "One should not only be equal to any climb that one undertakes, but be more than equal to it." Thats definitely good advice for a beginning leader.
I don't know who "Pruess" is, but obviously he wasn't very good. Good advice for a beginner for his first 5 or so leads. However, that is a guaranteed way to ensure you never progress, for if you can't ever lead anything harder than what you've done before, you can only go down. That must have been penned in the days of hemp ropes and soft iron pitons. Sounds like a good way to keep someone down...to ensure that you are always the mentor, and he the student.
"Don't try that route, young grasshoper...it's much too difficult for you! You don't want to get hurt do you?"
Alpinerock:
Go have fun. Learn to place gear, and if you decide you like it, and want to get better, go try stuff that's over your head, take falls. Make your earn its keep.
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tradklime
Jul 1, 2003, 3:38 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy"]In reply to: Yeah, you guys maybe right...I'm still waiting for a response to this: In reply to: Wait a second, I made some assumptions here without asking you first: Do you want to be a good trad climber, or are you just interested in climbng 5.7/5.8?If the answer is the latter, listen to those guys, since I only know about being good.
What a joke :roll: . Ya, you're right if you want to be good you have to climb with camalots.
Rockprodigy, I'm sure you are every bit as good as you pretend to be. Most people who front such an attitude usually are.
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 4:42 PM
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Yes, it is a joke. You people are un-freaking-believable. Why don't you chill-out for five seconds, stop being so serious, and LAUGH every once-in-awhile.
Just because there are retards on this site who say $hit like that and mean it, doesn't mean that everybody does.
You must be the people that think Eminem really wants to rape his mother!
C'mon, my screen name is "rockprodigy" for crying out loud! You think I'm serious??
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petsfed
Jul 1, 2003, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead.
Just because you wouldn't want to fall on one does not make it useless. As a directional, the little nuts are great. They serve no purpose other than to keep a piece from flying out to due to rope drag (I like to place them in the direction the route turns whilst the load bearing piece points in the likely direction of pull). You don't need two sets of the little nuts, and certainly not a dedicated micronut set, but having a few little stoppers is always very useful. Think rope guide and it will work out.
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bandycoot
Jul 1, 2003, 5:50 PM
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Interesting point petsfed. I haven't really thought about this due to the fact I often use cams and they hold the rope in line even from an outward or upward pull (when placed well of course).
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tradklime
Jul 1, 2003, 6:31 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy] Just because there are retards on this site who say $hit like that and mean it, doesn't mean that everybody does.
My apologies, it's not always easy to discern the difference, especially if you are a new and seeking genuine advice.
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rrrADAM
Jul 1, 2003, 6:34 PM
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Learn to use the "emoticons" smiley faces when being sarcastic or poking fun. I had to learn this, since people cannot see my facial expressions when I say "you are a frigin idiot !!!" :wink:
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tradklime
Jul 1, 2003, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead.
Sometimes they are all you got. Screamers help greatly to mitigate impact force. Obviously, the beginner leader should avoid routes that require these placements, but sometime in the future... that is, if you want to get good :wink:
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rrrADAM
Jul 1, 2003, 6:40 PM
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I place the #4s quite a bit, and even saw a friend take a pretty good fall on a #3. In SLC at the gathering last year, Paul (camhead) was climbing a stout .10, placed a #3, climbed, placed a cam and hollared "take!", only to have tyhe cam blow and fall to the #3. It now hangs from his rearview in his truck, all bent to shit.
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Remember the first rule of Pruess "One should not only be equal to any climb that one undertakes, but be more than equal to it." Thats definitely good advice for a beginning leader. I don't know who "Pruess" is, but obviously he wasn't very good. Good advice for a beginner for his first 5 or so leads.
Well I'm not gonna get into a whole battle with you. Preuss (not pruess as I mistakenly wrote), was a very good climber. He put up first ascents of climbs in the 5.9 range way back in the early 1900's and your right he did use a hemp rope when he used a rope at all. Over 1000 first ascents by the time he was 27 including the 800 footl northeast face of Cima Piccolissima. Sure his rules might be antiquated but they aren't foolish the best rule and one that might save a lot of people from a bad fall in modern climbing is #2 "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." A lot of people get on climbs they cant down climb and end up getting hurt. If nothing else practicing down climbing while top roping is a good idea, it might save you from taking a 40 foot whipper (unless you like 40 foot whippers).
Oddly enough I can place a tricam with one hand much of the time, although I typically have good enough stances to use both hands. Perhaps you are right about them becoming less useful when I get to the higher grades, or perhaps I'm just more proficient with them since I took the time to learn to place them from the start :wink: :D .
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Learn to use the "emoticons" smiley faces when being sarcastic or poking fun. I had to learn this, since people cannot see my facial expressions when I say "you are a frigin idiot !!!"
I HATE those funking things, and I absolutely refuse to use them!!!!
Edited to get that stupid smiley face out of the quote!
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent."
Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times.
In reply to: Oddly enough I can place a tricam with one hand much of the time, although I typically have good enough stances to use both hands.
This was the entire point of my tirade. If you get into harder stuff, you don't have stances, so you need gear that can be placed one handed. My weapon of choice is camalots...there are other good products as well. However, I know form experience that Trango flex cams (too flexible if you ask me), tricams and big hexes cannot always be placed one handed. That is all I'm trying to say.
In reply to: Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead.
You probably shouldn't trust your life to these, but a #2 stopper or RP is better than nothing at all! These so-called bodyweight pieces have held my ass tons of times, and at least shortened the fall.
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: cam less rack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pico23 wrote: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times.
Oddly enough I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know if Huber could have down climbed. I'd be curious to know. But lets get something straight, Huber is probably the best climber in the world. If not he is close. What you are comparing this to is the equivalent (although really even more insane) of taking a road bike back down some of the mountain passes in the alps and pyrenees at nearly full speed. Sure a professional cyclist can do it but can everyone? I don't know, I've hit the hi 60's (miles not Kmph) on my road bike and loved it, the bike seemed unstable and like anything could cause it to lose control, and i've taken twisty down hills at above 50mph where cars were hitting the brakes and my partners had long since been left behind, so I might have had the skills at one time but I'd still sh!t in my pants taking those turns in a pace line for 10 miles straight. Just because a few exceptional people can do it doesn't mean everyone can. People solo long hard routes, should we all?
I've heard of many accidents where people can only go up because they can't down climb and don't want to take a fall. Only up just means farther from there gear. They are scared, they just want to get to a rest stance so they climb and they don't get to the stance, they take a whipper and get hurt. Being able to down climb is a good asset. Falling isn't safe, it's a last resort, don't believe the hype.
Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle. People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner). Or the gear can pull. It happens. Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous. I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down. Had that been a ledge and not a ramp things could have been much different. I hope to never let something like that happen again, especially not on a weekday miles from help as the only climbers/people in the area.
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petsfed
Jul 1, 2003, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: ... I often use cams and they hold the rope in line even from an outward or upward pull ( when placed well of course).
(emphasis is mine)
I refuse to trust any single piece to be guarunteed multidirectional unless it is a very well placed stopper (eg slotted and tight, which ususally means hard to remove). I have had cams blow when rotation testing them, so its not something I'd like to trust my life to. The best thing you can get in a situation like that remains a multipiece placement because then you don't have to guess if it will hold. By the same token, sometimes the pump meter is ticking and if you take the time to set it up, you'll be testing the placement a lot sooner.
[summation]Cams are good at most situations, but prefer passive when you can so you have the fast stuff when you really need it[/summation]
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badphish
Jul 2, 2003, 1:59 AM
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I'd trust a fall from a nut before i would a cam, so they're perfect.
Hexes are bomber if you place them right.
work on easy routes and get to know your rack,
thats how I learned, actually another good way to learn
is spending about a year cleaning routes to learn
gear placements.
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maohaihuang
Jul 2, 2003, 12:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise.
Preuss indeed did as what he said. He would climb a new route at
the technical limit of free climbing of that time, often several
hundred meters long and exposed, in the mountains, by first figuring
out how to climb the crux, then making sure he can down climb
the crux comfortablly, then going for the top, then coming down
by down climb the same route!
I am not sure Hubers will be as remembered as Preuss after a couple
of decades. Skills and gears changes must faster than characters.
Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled
long alpine routes.
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 2:40 PM
Post #37 of 55
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In reply to: What you are comparing this to is the equivalent (although really even more insane) of taking a road bike back down some of the mountain passes in the alps and pyrenees at nearly full speed. Sure a professional cyclist can do it but can everyone? I don't know, I've hit the hi 60's (miles not Kmph) on my road bike and loved it, the bike seemed unstable and like anything could cause it to lose control, and i've taken twisty down hills at above 50mph where cars were hitting the brakes and my partners had long since been left behind, so I might have had the skills at one time but I'd still sh!t in my pants taking those turns in a pace line for 10 miles straight.
Huh?
In reply to: Just because a few exceptional people can do it doesn't mean everyone can. People solo long hard routes, should we all?
The Hubers didn't solo the NA wall, but they are reasonable enough to trust the gear!!
In reply to: Falling isn't safe, it's a last resort, don't believe the hype.
Hype?!
OK, I agree, that on the 5.5 routes that you're leading with hexes, it's probably not a good idea to fall. But anything over 5.8, and you should be good...just make sure you have your camalots placed well!
In reply to: Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle.
You have a serious fixation with negative consequences. I think you should talk to a therapist about your anxiety. No I'm not kidding. My wife has the same problem, but I've still been able to get her to practice lead falls...there is hope...you can work through your fears!
In reply to: People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner).
Was she following your lead? And you're giving out leading advice on the internet?
In reply to: Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous.
I agree. I don't fall ice climbing either, unless it's on a mixed route with rock gear. But ice and rock are VERY different.
In reply to: I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down.
So wear a helmet. And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges.
You really shouldn't be giving out technique advice on the internet....rather you should be taking advice. There are a lot of naive people who can't tell that you don't know what you're talking about...and you might get them into trouble. If you want to spray about the great deal you got on a cam, that's cool, but leave the rest to those with more skill and experience.
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 2:48 PM
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In reply to: Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled long alpine routes.
The Cassin Ridge, S Face of Mount Waddington, Devil's Thumb, Lotus Flower Tower, Moose's Tooth...are those less travelled enough, long enough, alpine enough for you??
I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
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rrrADAM
Jul 2, 2003, 2:54 PM
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Trivia Question...
What is the percentage of threads on the net that ask a simple question, but devolve into "hair-splitting" ??? :roll:
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petsfed
Jul 2, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges.
And I see you're a big fan of the way easy to protect (potentially bolted) no death fall potential routes. I can think of, off the top of my head, several climbs greater than 5.9 where it is a series of ledges followed by roofs. If you pitch on the lower section of Skull 5.10aor Crossbones5.11b you'll hit a ledge unless you're aiding it. On Lucille 5.12dits that sickening offwidth roof in the picture there) the smallest piece of gear is 3.5 camalot. If you protect it wrong, your partner will get aquainted with the wet thud of a body hitting the rock, hard. Or perhaps we can talk about death slabs like Perilous Journey 5.11d X or the notoriously thin routes put up by Derek Hersey. 5.12d X is par for the course when you're doing his routes. Clean falls?! Ha!
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 5:19 PM
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So, you think "the leader must not fall" aswell?
Or apparently you missed my last post?
In reply to: I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
Telling people it is NEVER safe to fall is just plain paranoid!
Is that marajuana induced paranoia?
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bumpkin
Jul 2, 2003, 5:59 PM
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To the original post:
I remember your pain. I started climbing when I was 14, and cash wan't exactly flowing. Some strategies were to buy bits at a time, and pool resources with my friends who were doing the same. There was also an older dude in the neighbourhood who gave us some of his stuff (soft iron pitons and really trippy ice screws that required unearthly strength, two hands and a lever to place, but also some nuts). We played it pretty safe, though got in over our heads often enough. Sometimes, I would borrow my older brother's rack: he had a (Korean imitation) Friend on it, imagine! This is nothing compared to my buddy who moved to Australia at that time: gear was really expensive there, and they threaded machine nuts and even hammered butter knives into cracks. Not recommended.
I learned to place hexes, tricams (yes, with one hand, it really isn't that tricky) and wires. Buying my first flex friend was quite something, as was my buddy's first TCU. Still with this rack of wires, hexes and odd stuff, big oval 'biners and double-fisherman tied webbing loops for runners we did our roadtrips to New Hampshire, the Gunks and the Adirondacks and had great fun. No doubt the cool dudes at the crags were snickering at us bumblies....
As for specific brands of SLCD's and nuts and so on.... well, take people's advice with a grain of salt. Obviously, you don't need Camalots (TM) to be a good climber.
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pico23
Jul 2, 2003, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle. You have a serious fixation with negative consequences. I think you should talk to a therapist about your anxiety. No I'm not kidding. My wife has the same problem, but I've still been able to get her to practice lead falls...there is hope...you can work through your fears! In reply to: People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner). Was she following your lead? And you're giving out leading advice on the internet? In reply to: Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous. I agree. I don't fall ice climbing either, unless it's on a mixed route with rock gear. But ice and rock are VERY different. In reply to: I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down. So wear a helmet. And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges. You really shouldn't be giving out technique advice on the internet....rather you should be taking advice. There are a lot of naive people who can't tell that you don't know what you're talking about...and you might get them into trouble. If you want to spray about the great deal you got on a cam, that's cool, but leave the rest to those with more skill and experience.
I would have assumed you were an "urban crag fag" who views climbing as a riskless endeavor. apparently having done the mooses tooth you are not. So assuming you do have the skills to know when to fall and when not to, most beginning leaders don't and many more skilled climbers don't have those skills. Furthermore falling is not always expected or planned and you can't always get gear in and it doesn't always hold. Often longer routes have ramps, ledges, ect even if the climbing is a higher grade such as 5.8 or above. Likewise there are plenty of 5.4's I can think of with clean falls. Grade doesn't necessarily indicate fall safety and longer routes generally are over inconsistent terrain.
You are right though I am very introspective. I try to learn from others mistakes and while I climb I take into account all the scenarios of stuff that can go wrong. In many ways that is bad because it holds me back but I hope it ultimately keeps me and my partners safe. I'm not in any rush to get good if it comes with the loss of safety and sound judgement. Getting hurt or killed won't make climbing anymore fun to me so I try to avoid it at all cost. A therapist will tell you that there are rational and irrational fears, seeing a jagged flake and saying "a fall on that would be bad" probably isn't that irrational nor is seeing fat ledge after a runout and thinking "shit I need some gear because if I hit that I'm fvcked".
Wearing a helmet doesn't keep you from breaking a neck when you invert and hit a block or a ledge, and it may not even protect a head injury in a head first fall. The helmet is for less forceful hits such as smaller rockfall, bumps, or possibly short falls.
No, the second didn't get hurt on my lead but thanks for assuming that just because I knew them personally they got hurt while following me. I'm not really sure you can automatically assume the leader was at fault. It doesn't take more then a few feet and the right angle to break a bone. My point was simply that falling isn't riskless and that it is easy to get hurt.
Your advice is poor, and to be honest unsafe. Consider taking a look at the advice you are giving beginning leaders before you go critiqueing others. Your advice might be fine for someone who is putzing around at the lower grades after years of experience leading but telling someone to jump on higher grade routes because the falls are safer is completely foolish. Furthermore saying that camalots are all you need to protect climbs is even more foolish, you need what fits in the options you are given by the rock. If a tricam fits, use it. If a camalot fits, use it. If a nut fits, thats what you use. You don't stick a camalot in a flaring pocket that a tricam would be bomber in. Go on being fool but your advice is gonna get someone hurt or killed.
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maohaihuang
Jul 3, 2003, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled long alpine routes. The Cassin Ridge, S Face of Mount Waddington, Devil's Thumb, Lotus Flower Tower, Moose's Tooth...are those less travelled enough, long enough, alpine enough for you??
I am amazed, assuming you did climb any of those, you still can't
make a clear point.
In reply to: I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
did i say otherwise? try reading.
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rockprodigy
Jul 6, 2003, 4:30 AM
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OK, I surrender!
You guys are right. Don't ever fall while leading trad...it's WAY too dangerous!
Don't try any routes harder than what you've previously down-climbed either...you'll definitely die if you do!
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apollodorus
Jul 6, 2003, 5:21 AM
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A rack without cams is completely insane! There is no way to get up without cams! Before there were cams, nobody climbed. They sat at the base (eating LSD), trying to figure out how to get up. Once they had cams, they could finally go climbing. Before that, they used helicopters.
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pico23
Jul 6, 2003, 5:48 AM
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In reply to: A rack without cams is completely insane! There is no way to get up without cams! Before there were cams, nobody climbed. They sat at the base (eating LSD), trying to figure out how to get up. Once they had cams, they could finally go climbing. Before that, they used helicopters.
Thats true, I forgot that 5.10 and above didn't come till after SLCD's :wink: . I don't think 5.11 was possible until BD Camalots, trango flex cams are too whimpy for anything above 5.9+. Thank god all the best climbers in the world use camalots or we wouldn't have any new hard routes to aspire to and all we'd have left is those boring old pre cam routes.
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apollodorus
Jul 6, 2003, 6:41 AM
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Uh, Chuck Pratt did the 5.10d Twilight Zone before they even had tube chocks, let alone cams. He flashed the crux basically free solo because he didn't have big enough pitons. And the first 5.11s in the Valley were also done pre-chock and well before they had cams.
Jardine's 5.12 Phoenix was the first that required cams to go up.
Same idea, just different numbers.
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pico23
Jul 6, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: Uh, Chuck Pratt did the 5.10d Twilight Zone before they even had tube chocks, let alone cams. He flashed the crux basically free solo because he didn't have big enough pitons. And the first 5.11s in the Valley were also done pre-chock and well before they had cams. Jardine's 5.12 Phoenix was the first that required cams to go up. Same idea, just different numbers.
Yep, notice the wink above in the first line? That hints at sarcasm. 5.10's were not only put up but re-ascended many times before cams existed. it's a falicy to believe you need cams to be able to climb above 5.8. Supposedly climbers in Dresden, Germany were doing modern 5.10's early in the 1900's, long before cams.
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fredo
Jul 7, 2003, 5:29 PM
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PRO's...
Personally I think it is better to get competent in placing passive pro before owing or placing any cams. You'll get a better idea of rock quality, solid placements and there is a certain margin of safety since a well placed nut, tri-cam, or hex will rarely walk. Plus passive gear weighs less and is less expensive.
Con's..
You may not be able to climb some lines right away because you may need a cam.
I also found it helpful to follow an experienced leader for a few seasons to learn to basics of placements, avoiding rope drag etc..
Anyway that is my $0.02 Climb safe and
Rock On!! :)
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rrrADAM
Jul 7, 2003, 5:36 PM
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I disagree with "the leader must not fall" mentality unless it is X-Rated, as you will not push yourself. It should be instinct to push away from the rock when falling, if not, you are not falling safely.
X-Rated=Leader must not fall, or they will die.
R-Rated=Leader must not fall, or they will be seriously injured.
PG-Rated=Leader should not fall, as there is a potential for injury.
G-Rated=Fall if properly protected. (This includes landings like ledges and/or protusions.)
This however, is only my opinion.
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brutusofwyde
Jul 8, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: Uh, Chuck Pratt did the 5.10d Twilight Zone before they even had tube chocks, let alone cams. He flashed the crux basically free solo because he didn't have big enough pitons.
Well, actually he hung out on jams while someone ran down to the car to get a pin big enough to fit the crack. But then again, the cars could park a lot closer to the cliff, so the story is not as impressive as at first glance. I mean, most of us would feel perfectly comfortable hanging out in the middle of a 5.10d offwidth crux while someone ran to the car to get a piece, eh? :wink:
Brutus
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jon_dittman
Jul 10, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Back in the old days when I were a nipper, we didn't have friends or cams. We used wooden wedges and stones with slings around them in cracks, before someone came up with the idea of using drilled out machine nuts tied with pieces of chord.
Still managed to climb up to 5.10c and never did me any harm! :wink:
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rhu
Jul 13, 2003, 10:47 PM
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I would follow John Long's advice and learn how to place passive pro first and when you become solid doing that then you will understand how to place anything. It does not work the other way around. If someone as respected as he is says this is the case then I will accept it as truth.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 13, 2003, 11:04 PM
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It is totaly possible to climb a whole bunch of stuff without cams but it is definatly easier and in many cases safer to have the cams. If you do buy cams , buy good ones as they will last at least 10 years. It's worth the extra dough to get the best.
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