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tradklime
Jul 1, 2003, 6:31 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy] Just because there are retards on this site who say $hit like that and mean it, doesn't mean that everybody does.
My apologies, it's not always easy to discern the difference, especially if you are a new and seeking genuine advice.
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rrrADAM
Jul 1, 2003, 6:34 PM
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Learn to use the "emoticons" smiley faces when being sarcastic or poking fun. I had to learn this, since people cannot see my facial expressions when I say "you are a frigin idiot !!!" :wink:
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tradklime
Jul 1, 2003, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead.
Sometimes they are all you got. Screamers help greatly to mitigate impact force. Obviously, the beginner leader should avoid routes that require these placements, but sometime in the future... that is, if you want to get good :wink:
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rrrADAM
Jul 1, 2003, 6:40 PM
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I place the #4s quite a bit, and even saw a friend take a pretty good fall on a #3. In SLC at the gathering last year, Paul (camhead) was climbing a stout .10, placed a #3, climbed, placed a cam and hollared "take!", only to have tyhe cam blow and fall to the #3. It now hangs from his rearview in his truck, all bent to shit.
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Remember the first rule of Pruess "One should not only be equal to any climb that one undertakes, but be more than equal to it." Thats definitely good advice for a beginning leader. I don't know who "Pruess" is, but obviously he wasn't very good. Good advice for a beginner for his first 5 or so leads.
Well I'm not gonna get into a whole battle with you. Preuss (not pruess as I mistakenly wrote), was a very good climber. He put up first ascents of climbs in the 5.9 range way back in the early 1900's and your right he did use a hemp rope when he used a rope at all. Over 1000 first ascents by the time he was 27 including the 800 footl northeast face of Cima Piccolissima. Sure his rules might be antiquated but they aren't foolish the best rule and one that might save a lot of people from a bad fall in modern climbing is #2 "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." A lot of people get on climbs they cant down climb and end up getting hurt. If nothing else practicing down climbing while top roping is a good idea, it might save you from taking a 40 foot whipper (unless you like 40 foot whippers).
Oddly enough I can place a tricam with one hand much of the time, although I typically have good enough stances to use both hands. Perhaps you are right about them becoming less useful when I get to the higher grades, or perhaps I'm just more proficient with them since I took the time to learn to place them from the start :wink: :D .
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Learn to use the "emoticons" smiley faces when being sarcastic or poking fun. I had to learn this, since people cannot see my facial expressions when I say "you are a frigin idiot !!!"
I HATE those funking things, and I absolutely refuse to use them!!!!
Edited to get that stupid smiley face out of the quote!
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rockprodigy
Jul 1, 2003, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent."
Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times.
In reply to: Oddly enough I can place a tricam with one hand much of the time, although I typically have good enough stances to use both hands.
This was the entire point of my tirade. If you get into harder stuff, you don't have stances, so you need gear that can be placed one handed. My weapon of choice is camalots...there are other good products as well. However, I know form experience that Trango flex cams (too flexible if you ask me), tricams and big hexes cannot always be placed one handed. That is all I'm trying to say.
In reply to: Do not get the 1-4 since they are for body weight only and so small that you really shouldn't be placing them on trad lead.
You probably shouldn't trust your life to these, but a #2 stopper or RP is better than nothing at all! These so-called bodyweight pieces have held my ass tons of times, and at least shortened the fall.
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pico23
Jul 1, 2003, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: cam less rack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pico23 wrote: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise. Trust me, I've tested it lots of times.
Oddly enough I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know if Huber could have down climbed. I'd be curious to know. But lets get something straight, Huber is probably the best climber in the world. If not he is close. What you are comparing this to is the equivalent (although really even more insane) of taking a road bike back down some of the mountain passes in the alps and pyrenees at nearly full speed. Sure a professional cyclist can do it but can everyone? I don't know, I've hit the hi 60's (miles not Kmph) on my road bike and loved it, the bike seemed unstable and like anything could cause it to lose control, and i've taken twisty down hills at above 50mph where cars were hitting the brakes and my partners had long since been left behind, so I might have had the skills at one time but I'd still sh!t in my pants taking those turns in a pace line for 10 miles straight. Just because a few exceptional people can do it doesn't mean everyone can. People solo long hard routes, should we all?
I've heard of many accidents where people can only go up because they can't down climb and don't want to take a fall. Only up just means farther from there gear. They are scared, they just want to get to a rest stance so they climb and they don't get to the stance, they take a whipper and get hurt. Being able to down climb is a good asset. Falling isn't safe, it's a last resort, don't believe the hype.
Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle. People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner). Or the gear can pull. It happens. Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous. I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down. Had that been a ledge and not a ramp things could have been much different. I hope to never let something like that happen again, especially not on a weekday miles from help as the only climbers/people in the area.
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petsfed
Jul 1, 2003, 11:15 PM
Post #34 of 55
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In reply to: ... I often use cams and they hold the rope in line even from an outward or upward pull ( when placed well of course).
(emphasis is mine)
I refuse to trust any single piece to be guarunteed multidirectional unless it is a very well placed stopper (eg slotted and tight, which ususally means hard to remove). I have had cams blow when rotation testing them, so its not something I'd like to trust my life to. The best thing you can get in a situation like that remains a multipiece placement because then you don't have to guess if it will hold. By the same token, sometimes the pump meter is ticking and if you take the time to set it up, you'll be testing the placement a lot sooner.
[summation]Cams are good at most situations, but prefer passive when you can so you have the fast stuff when you really need it[/summation]
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badphish
Jul 2, 2003, 1:59 AM
Post #35 of 55
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I'd trust a fall from a nut before i would a cam, so they're perfect.
Hexes are bomber if you place them right.
work on easy routes and get to know your rack,
thats how I learned, actually another good way to learn
is spending about a year cleaning routes to learn
gear placements.
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maohaihuang
Jul 2, 2003, 12:54 PM
Post #36 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: "The standard of difficulty which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent, with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent." Now you're being sarcastic...I hope?! This is insanity!! Do you think Alex Huber could safely downclimg the NA Wall?? Preuss wrote that when you couldn't trust the gear. It's 2003! THE GEAR WILL HOLD! I promise.
Preuss indeed did as what he said. He would climb a new route at
the technical limit of free climbing of that time, often several
hundred meters long and exposed, in the mountains, by first figuring
out how to climb the crux, then making sure he can down climb
the crux comfortablly, then going for the top, then coming down
by down climb the same route!
I am not sure Hubers will be as remembered as Preuss after a couple
of decades. Skills and gears changes must faster than characters.
Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled
long alpine routes.
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 2:40 PM
Post #37 of 55
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In reply to: What you are comparing this to is the equivalent (although really even more insane) of taking a road bike back down some of the mountain passes in the alps and pyrenees at nearly full speed. Sure a professional cyclist can do it but can everyone? I don't know, I've hit the hi 60's (miles not Kmph) on my road bike and loved it, the bike seemed unstable and like anything could cause it to lose control, and i've taken twisty down hills at above 50mph where cars were hitting the brakes and my partners had long since been left behind, so I might have had the skills at one time but I'd still sh!t in my pants taking those turns in a pace line for 10 miles straight.
Huh?
In reply to: Just because a few exceptional people can do it doesn't mean everyone can. People solo long hard routes, should we all?
The Hubers didn't solo the NA wall, but they are reasonable enough to trust the gear!!
In reply to: Falling isn't safe, it's a last resort, don't believe the hype.
Hype?!
OK, I agree, that on the 5.5 routes that you're leading with hexes, it's probably not a good idea to fall. But anything over 5.8, and you should be good...just make sure you have your camalots placed well!
In reply to: Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle.
You have a serious fixation with negative consequences. I think you should talk to a therapist about your anxiety. No I'm not kidding. My wife has the same problem, but I've still been able to get her to practice lead falls...there is hope...you can work through your fears!
In reply to: People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner).
Was she following your lead? And you're giving out leading advice on the internet?
In reply to: Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous.
I agree. I don't fall ice climbing either, unless it's on a mixed route with rock gear. But ice and rock are VERY different.
In reply to: I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down.
So wear a helmet. And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges.
You really shouldn't be giving out technique advice on the internet....rather you should be taking advice. There are a lot of naive people who can't tell that you don't know what you're talking about...and you might get them into trouble. If you want to spray about the great deal you got on a cam, that's cool, but leave the rest to those with more skill and experience.
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 2:48 PM
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In reply to: Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled long alpine routes.
The Cassin Ridge, S Face of Mount Waddington, Devil's Thumb, Lotus Flower Tower, Moose's Tooth...are those less travelled enough, long enough, alpine enough for you??
I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
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rrrADAM
Jul 2, 2003, 2:54 PM
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Trivia Question...
What is the percentage of threads on the net that ask a simple question, but devolve into "hair-splitting" ??? :roll:
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petsfed
Jul 2, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges.
And I see you're a big fan of the way easy to protect (potentially bolted) no death fall potential routes. I can think of, off the top of my head, several climbs greater than 5.9 where it is a series of ledges followed by roofs. If you pitch on the lower section of Skull 5.10aor Crossbones5.11b you'll hit a ledge unless you're aiding it. On Lucille 5.12dits that sickening offwidth roof in the picture there) the smallest piece of gear is 3.5 camalot. If you protect it wrong, your partner will get aquainted with the wet thud of a body hitting the rock, hard. Or perhaps we can talk about death slabs like Perilous Journey 5.11d X or the notoriously thin routes put up by Derek Hersey. 5.12d X is par for the course when you're doing his routes. Clean falls?! Ha!
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rockprodigy
Jul 2, 2003, 5:19 PM
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So, you think "the leader must not fall" aswell?
Or apparently you missed my last post?
In reply to: I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
Telling people it is NEVER safe to fall is just plain paranoid!
Is that marajuana induced paranoia?
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bumpkin
Jul 2, 2003, 5:59 PM
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To the original post:
I remember your pain. I started climbing when I was 14, and cash wan't exactly flowing. Some strategies were to buy bits at a time, and pool resources with my friends who were doing the same. There was also an older dude in the neighbourhood who gave us some of his stuff (soft iron pitons and really trippy ice screws that required unearthly strength, two hands and a lever to place, but also some nuts). We played it pretty safe, though got in over our heads often enough. Sometimes, I would borrow my older brother's rack: he had a (Korean imitation) Friend on it, imagine! This is nothing compared to my buddy who moved to Australia at that time: gear was really expensive there, and they threaded machine nuts and even hammered butter knives into cracks. Not recommended.
I learned to place hexes, tricams (yes, with one hand, it really isn't that tricky) and wires. Buying my first flex friend was quite something, as was my buddy's first TCU. Still with this rack of wires, hexes and odd stuff, big oval 'biners and double-fisherman tied webbing loops for runners we did our roadtrips to New Hampshire, the Gunks and the Adirondacks and had great fun. No doubt the cool dudes at the crags were snickering at us bumblies....
As for specific brands of SLCD's and nuts and so on.... well, take people's advice with a grain of salt. Obviously, you don't need Camalots (TM) to be a good climber.
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pico23
Jul 2, 2003, 8:57 PM
Post #43 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: Will the gear hold? It should but nothing is guaranteed: rock type, rope path, quality of placement all play a role. It's not just the Kn rating on the cams. Falling isn't riskless, you can invert and crack your head open (helmet or not), break your neck, you can slam into the wall and break an ankle. You have a serious fixation with negative consequences. I think you should talk to a therapist about your anxiety. No I'm not kidding. My wife has the same problem, but I've still been able to get her to practice lead falls...there is hope...you can work through your fears! In reply to: People have broken bones falling while following (I know this personally as someone I climbed with broke a wrist on a follow they smashed into a corner). Was she following your lead? And you're giving out leading advice on the internet? In reply to: Since I started as an ice climber the no fall rule has been engrained in me. Falling on ice is still pretty unacceptable and dangerous. I agree. I don't fall ice climbing either, unless it's on a mixed route with rock gear. But ice and rock are VERY different. In reply to: I have fallen on rock, the gear held, I didn't get a scratch but I did invert 2 of the 4 times I've fallen and one could have been serious as I bounced/slid off a ramp after falling about 15 feet upside down. So wear a helmet. And again, if you tried harder stuff, you wouldn't be falling onto ramps and ledges. You really shouldn't be giving out technique advice on the internet....rather you should be taking advice. There are a lot of naive people who can't tell that you don't know what you're talking about...and you might get them into trouble. If you want to spray about the great deal you got on a cam, that's cool, but leave the rest to those with more skill and experience.
I would have assumed you were an "urban crag fag" who views climbing as a riskless endeavor. apparently having done the mooses tooth you are not. So assuming you do have the skills to know when to fall and when not to, most beginning leaders don't and many more skilled climbers don't have those skills. Furthermore falling is not always expected or planned and you can't always get gear in and it doesn't always hold. Often longer routes have ramps, ledges, ect even if the climbing is a higher grade such as 5.8 or above. Likewise there are plenty of 5.4's I can think of with clean falls. Grade doesn't necessarily indicate fall safety and longer routes generally are over inconsistent terrain.
You are right though I am very introspective. I try to learn from others mistakes and while I climb I take into account all the scenarios of stuff that can go wrong. In many ways that is bad because it holds me back but I hope it ultimately keeps me and my partners safe. I'm not in any rush to get good if it comes with the loss of safety and sound judgement. Getting hurt or killed won't make climbing anymore fun to me so I try to avoid it at all cost. A therapist will tell you that there are rational and irrational fears, seeing a jagged flake and saying "a fall on that would be bad" probably isn't that irrational nor is seeing fat ledge after a runout and thinking "shit I need some gear because if I hit that I'm fvcked".
Wearing a helmet doesn't keep you from breaking a neck when you invert and hit a block or a ledge, and it may not even protect a head injury in a head first fall. The helmet is for less forceful hits such as smaller rockfall, bumps, or possibly short falls.
No, the second didn't get hurt on my lead but thanks for assuming that just because I knew them personally they got hurt while following me. I'm not really sure you can automatically assume the leader was at fault. It doesn't take more then a few feet and the right angle to break a bone. My point was simply that falling isn't riskless and that it is easy to get hurt.
Your advice is poor, and to be honest unsafe. Consider taking a look at the advice you are giving beginning leaders before you go critiqueing others. Your advice might be fine for someone who is putzing around at the lower grades after years of experience leading but telling someone to jump on higher grade routes because the falls are safer is completely foolish. Furthermore saying that camalots are all you need to protect climbs is even more foolish, you need what fits in the options you are given by the rock. If a tricam fits, use it. If a camalot fits, use it. If a nut fits, thats what you use. You don't stick a camalot in a flaring pocket that a tricam would be bomber in. Go on being fool but your advice is gonna get someone hurt or killed.
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maohaihuang
Jul 3, 2003, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Gear don't always hold or are available. Try climbing some less traveled long alpine routes. The Cassin Ridge, S Face of Mount Waddington, Devil's Thumb, Lotus Flower Tower, Moose's Tooth...are those less travelled enough, long enough, alpine enough for you??
I am amazed, assuming you did climb any of those, you still can't
make a clear point.
In reply to: I've been in plenty of "don't fall" situations, but there are also times when it's OK to fall...the wise climber should know the difference!
did i say otherwise? try reading.
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rockprodigy
Jul 6, 2003, 4:30 AM
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OK, I surrender!
You guys are right. Don't ever fall while leading trad...it's WAY too dangerous!
Don't try any routes harder than what you've previously down-climbed either...you'll definitely die if you do!
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apollodorus
Jul 6, 2003, 5:21 AM
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A rack without cams is completely insane! There is no way to get up without cams! Before there were cams, nobody climbed. They sat at the base (eating LSD), trying to figure out how to get up. Once they had cams, they could finally go climbing. Before that, they used helicopters.
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pico23
Jul 6, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #47 of 55
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In reply to: A rack without cams is completely insane! There is no way to get up without cams! Before there were cams, nobody climbed. They sat at the base (eating LSD), trying to figure out how to get up. Once they had cams, they could finally go climbing. Before that, they used helicopters.
Thats true, I forgot that 5.10 and above didn't come till after SLCD's :wink: . I don't think 5.11 was possible until BD Camalots, trango flex cams are too whimpy for anything above 5.9+. Thank god all the best climbers in the world use camalots or we wouldn't have any new hard routes to aspire to and all we'd have left is those boring old pre cam routes.
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apollodorus
Jul 6, 2003, 6:41 AM
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Uh, Chuck Pratt did the 5.10d Twilight Zone before they even had tube chocks, let alone cams. He flashed the crux basically free solo because he didn't have big enough pitons. And the first 5.11s in the Valley were also done pre-chock and well before they had cams.
Jardine's 5.12 Phoenix was the first that required cams to go up.
Same idea, just different numbers.
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pico23
Jul 6, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: Uh, Chuck Pratt did the 5.10d Twilight Zone before they even had tube chocks, let alone cams. He flashed the crux basically free solo because he didn't have big enough pitons. And the first 5.11s in the Valley were also done pre-chock and well before they had cams. Jardine's 5.12 Phoenix was the first that required cams to go up. Same idea, just different numbers.
Yep, notice the wink above in the first line? That hints at sarcasm. 5.10's were not only put up but re-ascended many times before cams existed. it's a falicy to believe you need cams to be able to climb above 5.8. Supposedly climbers in Dresden, Germany were doing modern 5.10's early in the 1900's, long before cams.
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fredo
Jul 7, 2003, 5:29 PM
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PRO's...
Personally I think it is better to get competent in placing passive pro before owing or placing any cams. You'll get a better idea of rock quality, solid placements and there is a certain margin of safety since a well placed nut, tri-cam, or hex will rarely walk. Plus passive gear weighs less and is less expensive.
Con's..
You may not be able to climb some lines right away because you may need a cam.
I also found it helpful to follow an experienced leader for a few seasons to learn to basics of placements, avoiding rope drag etc..
Anyway that is my $0.02 Climb safe and
Rock On!! :)
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