|
funk29
May 10, 2004, 6:51 PM
Post #1 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
On Saturday it started raining around 5 appx. NBD right, were in the Northwest. It’s raining every other time I climb at Index. In fact some of my most memorable climbing days are in the rain. All the “climbers” were gone by the time we got off Princely Ambitions, cleared out. We started packing our things, and I said to Jim, I’m going to run over and see if any one left gear. Sure enough someone had bailed from half way up the serious nail up. I aided up Funked the gear and down aided in about 15 minutes. Sickness I know its like heinous A1+, It was so sketchy I had to pound in some LA’s. Booty Count, new metolius yellow tcu, small nut, three biners and a sling! Total Bootied Cams, Ten of thirty-two total. Ye Haaaaww! I am thankful to have rich climbers around who don’t mind bailing on new gear in a bit of rain.
|
|
|
|
|
dave1
May 10, 2004, 7:20 PM
Post #2 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 36
|
Barley
Was one of those booty biners an older omega oval from the last bolt on the bolt ladder. If it was, David S. and I left it on thursday, but my guess is that someone would have gotten it by then. We didn't leave anything else. If you did get it, I would be warry of using it since I found it as a booty biner in Riverside, CA at Riverside Quarry last March, the day I got hit by rockfall. It may have bad karma (just kidding). We found 13 biners that day (ultimate booty call) and kept them as leaver biners, so if you found it, more power to you, congrats bro. I don't know the history of it beyond that so be cautious if you decide to use it as rock/rockfall at Riverside quarry is horrifically bad. There was no visible gear in the crack when I was on it (city park). If someone else got it, congratulations, hope you either enjoy it or destroy it, or better yet, enjoy destroying it!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
funk29
May 10, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #3 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
I think there was a couple parties on it Saturday.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
May 10, 2004, 7:46 PM
Post #4 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
What ever you found or where ever you found it it's mine. Mail it ASAP please. Oh and anything you find in the future is mine too. Thanks,
|
|
|
|
|
chalkyhandsman
May 12, 2004, 2:25 AM
Post #5 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2003
Posts: 32
|
Did you by any chance find two nuts in the narrow crack to the left of the 9+ crux section of princly ambitions? My brother and I bailed off that route a week ago, but my guess is that they were bootied way before you got to it.
|
|
|
|
|
lightandslow
May 12, 2004, 3:57 PM
Post #6 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 35
|
In reply to: I had to pound in some LA’s.
Why the hell did you pound pins on City Park :shock: ? That crack hasn't seen ironmongery in years, at least not w/out the person getting yelled at by other parties...no need to start now, eh? Hopefully you were just being sarcastic?
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 12, 2004, 4:03 PM
Post #7 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Have some class, don't make the effort to rip people off. If you find it climbign or when no one has really been around for a while than take it. But really you just waited them out and poached their gear. Have some freaking class. I hate you guys that feed on people when they bail, maybe they have plans to get it when it is less dangerous.
One word for you and your kind THEIF!!!
Like I said it is different when you punk something while on the line or at the end of the day. Not feed on those who have to bail
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 12, 2004, 4:05 PM
Post #8 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Just to clarify too, I have never had to leave gear behind, maybe I poick the right days to climb. This is not a rant out of experience either, but if someone punked some good gear from me I would find them. Give it some time before you steal, have ethics, and show some support
|
|
|
|
|
funk29
May 12, 2004, 6:43 PM
Post #9 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
1. The truth is that I did not nail of that pitch of climbing.
“I hate you guys that feed on people when they bail, maybe they have plans to get it when it is less dangerous.” –little_philly
2. Aiding in rain is not dangerous.
3. Taking gear that another person left in on a pitch while bailing is not Stealing!
I love free climbing with a hammer and pins! - m barley
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 12, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #10 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Whatever helps you sleep at night funk.
|
|
|
|
|
lightandslow
May 12, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #11 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 35
|
If they're gone it's not stealing.
Now, if you bumped into somebody in the parking lot it'd be a little (a lot?) sketch of you not to make sure it was their gear so you could give it back. But if nobody's around, it's booty.
I'm glad you didn't actually sink a couple LA's into City Park, that'd be criminal.
|
|
|
|
|
bustloose
May 13, 2004, 4:02 AM
Post #12 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 489
|
'funk' people like you are fucking parasites. you're probably the kind of asshole that steals project draws and fixed lines... "duuuuuuh, if it's gots left in the walls, duuuuh, it's done free to taking for me, yuk yuk"
get a life, punk and buy your own fucking gear.
|
|
|
|
|
funk29
May 13, 2004, 2:42 PM
Post #13 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
1. The post is obnoxious bragging.
2. To reiterate: When we got off of the multi pitch route there was not another climber there.
3. When we go to the index parking lot there were no other cars there.
3. It is stealing to take fixed draws off a sport route.
4. It is not stealing to take gear left mid pitch on a multi pitch climb, when there are no other climbers in the area.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 3:38 PM
Post #14 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
We should start an asshole of the year award.
I nominate this idiot.
|
|
|
|
|
mackavus
May 13, 2004, 3:49 PM
Post #15 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2002
Posts: 322
|
Instead of bitching at each other, lets just say who's side were on here... we all read the post and now just have to say who we agree with. I gotta tell you though I read the post and I am on funks side... and if it were me that left the gear up there... I would STILL be on that side of the argument. This is the way that climbing has been since it started people... that is why one of the biggest reasons that bailing sucks ass... cause you have to leave something behind and you are never going to see it again. Did any of you ever bail and actually expect to see your gear again? You dont write your name, address and phone number on it so that it can be mailed back do you?? Sorry, Im with the funk.
And I would suggest that people READ original posts before flaming the shit out of someone. Funk did not wait out for people to leave, and then go thieving. He and his party were the only people left there, and decided to go searching for left gear. Would you try to find the owner of a cam that you found out in the middle of the woods somewhere if there was no one else around?
Peace.
Edited for extra input.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 4:02 PM
Post #16 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: Would you try to find the owner of a cam that you found out in the middle of the woods somewhere if there was no one else around?
A couple of years ago I was with a guide at Seneca. Near the top I dropped one of his hexes. Next day he got it back from another guy who had found it.
At least there are some climbers that are decent human beings unlike you two nuck futs.
|
|
|
|
|
funk29
May 13, 2004, 4:07 PM
Post #17 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
Yea, Yea!
It feels good to be a climber.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 4:14 PM
Post #18 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: Yea, Yea! It feels good to be a climbing asshole. |
|
|
|
|
mackavus
May 13, 2004, 4:31 PM
Post #19 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2002
Posts: 322
|
WOOOOO HOOOOOOO! It sure is wicked sick to be a nuck fut!
Seriously though, you made a good point there vertical, but I think that if you leave somewhere along the climb, beacuse of bailing, that stuff is fair game man. Finders keepers, losers suck.
Peace.
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 13, 2004, 4:41 PM
Post #20 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
In the end of all this you are still s theif. you didn't buy the gear, you waited some guys out and took advantage. People of this sort are theifs, if you need to keep telling yourselves that you are still good people and that it is all fair game that go for it. You guys stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd. You are theifs and you might as well wear a sign. If the piece it their the next day grab it, post it. But you knew they were climbing their you saw them, you made the effort thinking they bailed you are a theif.
End of story
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 4:55 PM
Post #21 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: WOOOOO HOOOOOOO! It sure is wicked sick to be a nuck fut! Seriously though, you made a good point there vertical, but I think that if you leave somewhere along the climb, beacuse of bailing, that stuff is fair game man. Finders keepers, losers suck. Peace.
I don't see anything wrong with finding bootie while on a climb, but going after someone else's gear without giving them a chance to get it back is just being a dickweed.
The guys got caught in bad weather and bailed for safetys sake, probably thought "It's raining, I'll just go down and grab a bite to eat and come back when the weather clears to get my gear." Then asshole comes by and ruins his day.
|
|
|
|
|
fiend
May 13, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #22 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2001
Posts: 3669
|
Leaving gear when bailing basically the same as leaving it sitting in the parking lot with a 'Take Me' sign. If you leave it behind, it's gone... unless you get back to it first.
Now, that doesn't take into account the Karma of someone who may find booty and try to return it, but there really is no code of ethics which states that someone shouldn't go up and get left behind gear.
If you bail on something because it was over your head and someone with the skill to go get your gear does so then you're shit outta luck on that one.
|
|
|
|
|
chronicle
May 13, 2004, 5:10 PM
Post #23 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 664
|
I've found gear and I've left gear. It's just a known fact that if you bail, don't expect to see your gear again. I've fumbled with a yellow TCU for 45 minutes before to get it out of a crack that someone left behind.
In reply to: If the piece it their the next day grab it, post it.
Because every climber in the world reads the posts on Rockclimbing.com right? Booty gear has been around since climbing started.
|
|
|
|
|
valeberga
May 13, 2004, 5:15 PM
Post #24 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 434
|
haha I hope you are trolling dude because if not you are gonna have some serious ass-whupin trackin' you down. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 5:17 PM
Post #25 of 87
(8209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
The point is, he wasn't even given the chance to get it back.
Climbing ethics? Isn't it ethical to show a little respect to a fellow climber?
|
|
|
|
|
corey
May 13, 2004, 5:29 PM
Post #26 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 10, 2003
Posts: 29
|
There is a distinct difference between "not expecting" to see your gear again, and being the person who TAKES it. Please recognize this difference.
Attempting to apply the argument that something "has been going on since the beginning of climbing" is, well, I won't say it, because it's just not nice words. There are many things that USED to go on for decades or centuries that were or still are just plain wrong. Please re-examine your position and apply a valid, logical argument to support it.
Stealing is stealing, there is no gray area, as much as some would like there to be. Much of the world IS, in fact, black and white, regarding "right" and "wrong" where other people besides one's self is involved.
This issue has absolutely nothing to do with climbing, it just happens to also occur in within the climbing arena. Climbers are no different than any other person, aside from the fact that the move vertically on earth, as well as horizontally. No more or less moral or ethical. No better or worse understanding of "life" or the meaning of it. A person's values permiate everything they do in life.
A similar event happened in the Red a few months ago where draws were left on a route and removed by an unknown person. Through much discussion and arguing on redriverclimbing.com, the draws were eventually returned to the top of the route and retrieved by the owner. Does returning the draws in that case give the person who took them some "moral credibility"? Hell no, because the gear should not have been removed in the first place.
Honor is in the details. The "why" is infinitely more important than the "what".
|
|
|
|
|
mackavus
May 13, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #27 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2002
Posts: 322
|
In reply to: But you knew they were climbing their you saw them, you made the effort thinking they bailed you are a theif. End of story
Ok. What drives me nuts about that last post philly, is that line right there. Where the hell deos he say that he even saw who was on the route???
In reply to: Stealing is stealing, there is no gray area, as much as some would like there to be. Much of the world IS, in fact, black and white, regarding "right" and "wrong" where other people besides one's self is involved.
No gray area.... stealing is stealing??? Ask your local police what the definition of "abandoned property" is.
Corey,
You made a few good points, but one thing that bothers me is that you said "This issue has absolutely nothing to do with climbing, it just happens to also occur in within the climbing arena." I could not disagree more. I think that the specific details that make up the lifestyle and sport of climbing create situations that you do not often run into in everyday life, specifically, this one. Also, "ethics" and "morals" are touchy issues all over the globe, in everyday life, and in our world of rock climbing. These two words mean something a little different to everyone on the planet. What "should" and/or " what "should not" be done will be a question untill the end of time, especially in rock climbing. With bolts, hammers, chipping, cleaning, chopping, etc. where does it end? There will always be a dividing line somewhat between those who think that and those who think this.
That said I would like to explain my position a little better:
Fixed Gear: depends... a nut in the corner of a roof 280 feet up that was obviously left there on purpose... stays. That nut stuck in the 5.5 start to Beginner's Delight in the Gunks... free to whomever can get it out.
Draws on a proj... well they stay. Leaver biners however are frickin' mine.
A rap rig that someone had to make to bail off due to rain in an area where it rains heavily and frequently? Well I nab that stuff, and if there is no one in the parking lot or around at all... and they dont have packs at the base or any other sign that they will be returning... I claim it as my own and would expect anyone else to do the same thing if I had left this same config.
I don't feel that claiming booty is stealing. I really don't. In fact, there are at least 2 climbing books that I can think of that actually have sections on booty. So someone, besides us two nuck futs as someone put it, feels the same way we do. I dont feel that you can bail, and go for pizza... then hike back up to the cliff 4 hours later... and expect to get your gear. Furthermore, I would think you to be very silly if you were pissed off that is wasn't there.
Peace
|
|
|
|
|
elcapinyoazz
May 13, 2004, 6:38 PM
Post #28 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2003
Posts: 93
|
You whiny azz jokers callin' this bro a theif need to educate yourself on the unwritten "way of the climber".
When in the valley, the first thing I do after a mid-May or Oct storm is take a run up either the Arches or Nutcracker to collect some booty. I've bailed off routes I either couldn't complete because they were too hard, or because I was sketched, or because the weather turned bad. I KNEW I would not get that gear back so I left the cheapest pieces I could build safe stations out of and rapped off as many natural features as possible leaving only slings. I would NEVER bail and leave an aid pitch half-full of gear unless my partner had just broken bones or been hit in the melon with rockfall. I mean shizzle ma nizzle, you gotta rap right by the gear anyway...wtf? Some points:
1. THE BAIL PARTY LEFT TOWN....no longer there. Not "waiting out the weather" or "getting a bite to eat". They split and went home because they were too sketched to down-aid in the rain. Boo hoo. It's INDEX for christsakes, rain is a 50/50 proposition on a good day.
2. NO REASON TO LEAVE THAT MUCH GEAR....could have set a 3 piece station and cleaned the gear on rap.
3. WEATHER NOT DANGEROUS....you very very rarely see lighting in the PNW. High on a peak, maybe. I lived in the PNW for years and saw lighting 2 times....as in 2 bolts in 4 years. It was clearly not freezing rain either. The bail party were soft chachis with more money than balls.
You whiners need to spend some time living the life and learning the code.
|
|
|
|
|
mackavus
May 13, 2004, 6:56 PM
Post #29 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2002
Posts: 322
|
This brother speaks the truuuff!
|
|
|
|
|
funk29
May 13, 2004, 7:16 PM
Post #30 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 65
|
Vertas
|
|
|
|
|
largebarge
May 13, 2004, 7:29 PM
Post #31 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2002
Posts: 33
|
Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing.
|
|
|
|
|
stevep
May 13, 2004, 7:29 PM
Post #32 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
As far as the definitions of stealing and abandoned property go, I don't thinking grabbing gear a short time after it was left would qualify it as abandoned. For something to be abandoned, there would have to be a reasonable expectation that it is not going to be retreived. To me at least, this means days, not hours.
I've certainly collected booty off of climbs, but I'm pretty sure most of it had been there for some time. I'd feel a little bit strange (perhaps like I was stealing) if I went up immediately after somebody, without at least giving them a day to return and recover it. I mean for all you know, maybe in addition to the weather, somebody in that party did have some type of emergency that precluded them from spending the time to get the stuff.
Going up to get it right away does strike me as a little vulture-like, but I guess to each his own.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 13, 2004, 7:39 PM
Post #33 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing.
The next time you park your car you won't mind if I take it then will you? If you left it there then you rescinded ownership of it right?
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 13, 2004, 7:55 PM
Post #34 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: Ask your local police what the definition of "abandoned property" is.
I would like to think that the brotherhood of climbers is more respectful of each other than is the general riff-raff of society. Back when I first started climbing, I was taught that it was common courtesy to give someone 24 hours to come back for gear abandoned on a route. While this is possible at smaller local crags, I quickly learned that there are a lot of vultures in the world. Climbing world included.
Bootying gear that you come across while climbing is one thing. Going looking for gear right after someone bails is being a vulture. While there may be nothing illegal in doing this, it is not the highest moral ground you could be taking.
If I bail from a route, I do not expect to see that gear ever again, there are far too many vultures in the world. However, I would come back to check, and if someone were to return it, they would be rewarded. Any time that I have bootied gear, I have always made it known to the locals that I found gear and give someone a chance to come foreward to say what it was that they lost. You should at least try.
So, spout up and down if you will about abandoned property, but the fact is, you are more on the side of bad than the side of good. Think how happy you would be if someone returned your gear. It's real easy to make someone else feel that good.
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 13, 2004, 8:02 PM
Post #35 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: In reply to: If the piece it their the next day grab it, post it. Because every climber in the world reads the posts on Rockclimbing.com right? Booty gear has been around since climbing started.
Most areas have some sort of regional_climbing.com bullitin board. There are also kiosks in many parking areas, with regulations, maps, and such. It is really easy to give someone a chance to claim their gear.
|
|
|
|
|
grundlebug
May 13, 2004, 8:09 PM
Post #36 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2004
Posts: 17
|
How do you know if something has been left for four hours rather than four days?
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 13, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #37 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: How do you know if something has been left for four hours rather than four days?
you wait till you see it on a second day before you take it.
|
|
|
|
|
largebarge
May 13, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #38 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2002
Posts: 33
|
In reply to: In reply to: Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing. The next time you park your car you won't mind if I take it then will you? If you left it there then you rescinded ownership of it right?
Do you really think there is no difference between these two events?
The point people are trying to make when they say "you don't expect to get bail gear back" is that it is implicit that you are rescinding ownership of the gear. Leaving something behind for your own convenience is litter, and we all know that. If someone else finds it useful and wants to pick it up, good for them.
Furthermore, as long as I have been climbing, it has been understood among the "brotherhood of climbers" that gear left behind is booty, and free for the taking. Maybe we can and should change that understanding. Maybe that will happen because of discussions like this. Start labelling your gear with "if found, please return to (your name and address) when you leave it behind, and then for convenience sake you can leave your rack on the walls, and never have to finish anything if you get too tired, or wet.
Stay away from my car!
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 13, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #39 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: The point people are trying to make when they say "you don't expect to get bail gear back" is that it is implicit that you are rescinding ownership of the gear.
Not so. If i park my car in a bad neighborhood with the windows down, I won't be surprised to come back to find my radio gone. That doesn't mean that I have rescinded my ownership of it.
I don't expect to get bail gear back because I know that there are gear vultures hovering over the crags, just like there are radio vultures hovering over the city,
Climbers should be looking out for other climbers. It is a sad fact that they aren't
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
May 13, 2004, 8:41 PM
Post #40 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: In the end of all this you are still a theif ................End of story
Pretty harsh words, and pretty ill informed (imho). This subject was discussed to death a just last month about leaving gear on Fote Hog in Real Hidden Valley at Joshua Tree. Here is the link: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57826 [which makes me think this is a T2+]
And I note that vertical_reality's personal profile admits that: "I've only been climbing for a short time..."
If you bail and leave gear, it is booty. Plain and simple. It always has been and always will be.
(Please note we are not talking about sport route draws here. Sport climbing has its own "ethic" about this....)
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 13, 2004, 9:01 PM
Post #41 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
All the theifs with no ethics stick together it seems. Their is a gragient here, wait till next day at the very least otherwise you are a theif. He said in his original post that he went deliberately looking for gear. He knew it was raining, he said their were others climbing, he took advantage of those people who bailed and didn't have a chance to recover their gear, Funk you are a theif, plain and simple.
Picking up gear on a climb is different. He thought it out, knew that someone must have bailed and went, probably mere hours after, and stole their gear.
This is like if you went to a gym, left your watch, and an hour later someone see's it "YOINK" "uhhh abandoned property...uhh, mine now finders keepers" I DON"T THINK SO. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. You stole and didn't post it somewhere so they could have it back, you are a Theif. And no I didn't mean RC.com their are a million places to post lost gear!!!
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
May 13, 2004, 10:08 PM
Post #42 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: All the theifs [sic] with no ethics stick together it seems.....
Rather, it seems that all the "climbers" who have strong opinions concerning matters about which they lack any real knowledge or experience sound similarly shrill.
And I would be very careful questioning the ethics of people you don't know.
|
|
|
|
|
bustloose
May 13, 2004, 10:20 PM
Post #43 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 489
|
you'd be carefull questioning the ethics of people you don't know???? get real 'dude' he put up a post telling all how great he is for having waited in the rain for people to leave gear behind and then went and stole it. you really need to be carefull questioning his ethics???
lets make things clear. if i bail off a route becuase i haven't got the skill to finish the pitch, and leave behind a rap anchor, then no, i don't expect to get that gear back. if someone works for an hour on a peice and can't retreive it, and you manage to unstick it days later, fine.
theses folks backed of the first pitch of a route, in the rain. common fucking courtesy says that you give them a day to come and get it back, not an hour. and if you come back in 3 days and someone else took it, at least you had the morals to leave it behind.
rest assured that if i had seen you pull that shit at my crag, you would not have left with that gear. (and for god's sake, no i am not threatening him)
and really. it's not THAT hard to try and return recovered gear. i see notes all the time at gyms and carparks about forgotten shoes and watches and jackets. people who are not spineless theives return found property, it's that easy.
|
|
|
|
|
bigwalling
May 13, 2004, 10:29 PM
Post #44 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 728
|
You people have to be fucking with me. He wallked along the base in a rain strom and saw some bail gear, and climbed up and got it. Please put a bullet in your head if you think what he did was wrong. I don't know how much longer I can take this site.
|
|
|
|
|
bustloose
May 13, 2004, 10:36 PM
Post #45 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 489
|
shit dude, i don't how much longer i can take this site either... read, then post...
In reply to: and I said to Jim, I’m going to run over and see if any one left gear.
they went looking for bail gear because it started raining. THAT does not equate to gear left behind and given up on.
fuck, how many times and how many different people have to draw this line before you cheapskates get it?
fuck am i ever glad i don't climb anywhere near you chumps.
|
|
|
|
|
bigwalling
May 13, 2004, 10:48 PM
Post #46 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 728
|
Have you climbed the route? If you haven't you should shut the fuck up. I have climbed it in pouring rain! Anyone who bails from it likely doesn't have the intention to go back for gear, because you stay pretty dry in the rain and it doesn't take that long to climb.
|
|
|
|
|
stevep
May 13, 2004, 10:49 PM
Post #47 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
I'm with bustloose on this on one. There's a significant difference between found gear an unknown amount of time later and snagging stuff right after somebody has pulled a rapid escape.
If your values and climbing experience don't let you see that difference, so be it. But there is a difference.
|
|
|
|
|
elcapinyoazz
May 13, 2004, 10:50 PM
Post #48 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2003
Posts: 93
|
I've climbed behind several parties in Yos on Central Pillar, Nutcracker, East Butt EC, Arches, Serenity/sons, etc that left gear they either couldn't clean or overlooked or spaced out on or whatever, where me or my partner were able to clean it. I've given it back to them either at the top or at a shared belay or in C4. EVERY TIME.
What you apparent youngsters seem to be missing out on here is this:
This party bailed. The party did not have to leave the gear. In fact there is NO GOOD REASON to have left that gear in place. They were either scared, lazy, or unskilled. They did not leave any kind of note at the base saying they were going to retrieve it tomorrow, they did nothing to indicate that it was anything other than abandoned bail gear. And YES IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO INDICATE THAT IT IS NOT BOOTY. (Someone could have been injured and I'll grant that as a special case where taking the gear would not be right, but bro who bootied the gear would have heard the commotion of helicopter evac or seen blood at the base, heard the screams,etc).
If they were scared, they should have down-aided. Every piece had held them thus far (and we're talking about an EASY aid route) and there was no reason to expect that the pieces would not hold them down aiding.
If they were lazy...well too f'in bad. That amounts to litter and becomes instant free game.
If they were unskilled and didn't want to continue in the rain out of fear (which I don't understand...it's just rain) they should have down aided or built a rap anchor and cleaned the ptich on rap.
This in no way is the same as leaving your car in a bad neighborhood. People don't often drive a car somewhere and never come back for it. This is in no way like someone stealing your watch in the gym. Watches are often dropped or laid about in gyms and it is reasonable to expect that the person did not leave it there knowingly.
These people left this gear knowingly in place, for no good reason, with nothing to indicate it was a special situation or that they would be back for it anytime soon. Lazy, unskilled, climbing beyond ability, too much dough and not enough know.
And to the hardman who said that he would not allow that at his crag I'll say this: Unless you knew the party who bailed personally and could give me their phone number, you'd be pulling a #4 camalot out of your azz and picking up teeth off the ground before you stopped me from leaving with that gear. It's fun to be a tough guy over a computer screen. I've yet to find anyone who walked the talk in the real world.
|
|
|
|
|
michael_layton
May 13, 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #49 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 20
|
If he didn't grab it someone else would.
I hope you guys don't ever need to be rescued at sea cuz your boat belongs to whoever saved your ass.
Thus, if you bail you've left gear. Never expect to get it back.
1. You don't deserve it back.
2. I would give it back if I the owner asked for it.
3. If you expect to have people go get your gear for you, hire a guide.
4. You'd have to be and idiot to not tell the difference between a project, or fixed lines, etc...and a piece that was left to bail or the team was unable to remove.
Call me a thief, I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place. Accept your shame.
-Mike
|
|
|
|
|
valeberga
May 13, 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #50 of 87
(6475 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 434
|
Wait a second... those was my f'in gear up there you little punkass! I am gonna find you and make hamburger out of your legs with the two largest cams you stole!! :twisted: :twisted: You better leave town buddy!!!
Not really, but...
I mean, that could compromise the functionality of the cams...
|
|
|
|
|
elcapinyoazz
May 13, 2004, 11:09 PM
Post #51 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2003
Posts: 93
|
In reply to: 4. You'd have to be and idiot to not tell the difference between a project, or fixed lines, etc...and a piece that was left to bail or the team was unable to remove. Call me a thief, I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place.
Werd 'em up Michael! This is INDEX...it's not like buddies were workin' some heinous new aid project. They were on a trade route baby aid crack that gets done 100 times a year or more .
Is this the same Layton that busted up his feet? That was some nasty lookin injury man, someone sent me pics of that. I hope you're ok now.
|
|
|
|
|
michael_layton
May 13, 2004, 11:22 PM
Post #52 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 20
|
That's me!
Thanks! I'm walkin' and climbing just fine now.
in fact when I was crawling though the desert I bootied a ball-cap! And you know what? I packed my shit up in my pack and dragged it with me.
Therefor I have little sympathy for someone who is too lazy to clean up their trash.
Also, if I left gear I'd feel BAD about ruining the climb and HOPE someone cleans it.
You guys! Come on. Take some blood pressure medication or something.
I'm glad no one sent you the pic of me getting a BJ from a GIANT marmot in canada! That was circulating on the net for a while.
http://www.cafeshops.com/alpinist
|
|
|
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
May 14, 2004, 12:24 AM
Post #53 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2002
Posts: 440
|
good god, is this thread still going on? i was waiting for it to die a timely death, but since it ain't...
i'm gonna have to weigh in with the "it's fair game" side. let's be realistic; booty is booty. i've snagged my share of gear from the rock. i used to walk the gumby areas every monday at the new river - usually good for a cam or two, or at least a stopper. if someone lacks the skill to retrieve their own gear, and splits, they've basically left it for crafty booty hunters. if i'm willing to put in the work they weren't willing to do, it's mine. the analogies to sunglasses or shoes etc. left at the crag does not stand; those things were likely unintentionally left behind and should be left alone or placed somewhere where the losing party is likely to find them. booty is gear left (usually) intentionally. i'm not saying i'll glom onto it like scrooge mcduck - i'll happily return it if i run across the folks who left it - but it's not my responsibility to actively seek them out. many areas (like the new) see weekend warriors fresh out of the gym, their gear shiny and virginal, left behind with no one to claim it.
just one more thing. am i the only one bothered by the fact that about 90% of the anti-booty posters can't spell "thief"?
|
|
|
|
|
ctclimbz
May 14, 2004, 12:44 AM
Post #54 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 137
|
Exciting flame war!
Just a thought. I've bootied plenty of gear. I've also had to leave gear. It all comes around in the end.
|
|
|
|
|
mlcrisis
May 14, 2004, 12:51 AM
Post #55 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2003
Posts: 51
|
so, if the funkmaster had said:
"...and we were walking back to the car and happened to notice gear up on this route......and when we got back to the lot no one was around"
would it then have been acceptable to take it?
I am walking along in the woods and I find a 100 bill lying on the trail....no one in sight....take it....no one in the parking lot....am I stealing it?
but for the record, I would have left this gear in this situation....
|
|
|
|
|
stevep
May 14, 2004, 4:24 AM
Post #56 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
So the fact that they are noobs makes it OK to take their gear? That's kind of what it sounds like from your posts. I mean, a leaver biner or a stuck piece are one thing, but I would generally assume with a number of left pieces that somebody intends to come back.
Let me pose a hypothetical situation. I'm a very experienced climber, and my wife, who is also experienced, is allergic to bees. She gets stung when up on a route and doesn't have and epi pen. We're at a trad crag 20 mins from a hospital.
If this happens, I'm lowering her immediately, damn the gear, and we're off to the ER.
You happened to be 200 yards away on another climb. To you it looks like we just left this climb loaded with booty, maybe because it was over our heads (it being a 5.11 and all).
You're saying in this case, gear is fair game and you wouldn't feel bad about taking it?
If you'd hesitate in this case, can you safely make the assumption that the original situation in this thread was really that different?
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 14, 2004, 5:10 AM
Post #57 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: you'd be pulling a #4 camalot out of your azz and picking up teeth off the ground before you stopped me from leaving with that gear. It's fun to be a tough guy over a computer screen. I've yet to find anyone who walked the talk in the real world.
In reply to: 1. You don't deserve it back. I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place. Accept your shame.
So does it hurt you to allow someone the opportunity to get their gear back or does it empower you to know that you are the superior climber and took their gear?
|
|
|
|
|
f2
May 14, 2004, 6:34 AM
Post #58 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 37
|
I don't have much of an opinion on this thread but I do have an opinion on the rule i before e, except after c, i like it. so guys and gals thief is spelled THIEF see what I did there I put the I BEFORE the E.Lastly resigned is spelled RESIGNED not rescined. I'm sorry I'm a petty petty man I'm waiting for my partner, were going to go shopping at the local crag,just rained.
ROCK-N-ROLL
|
|
|
|
|
glencoe
May 14, 2004, 1:23 PM
Post #59 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 23, 2002
Posts: 58
|
Theft is a legal term (too). Property intentionally left in a public place is generally considered to be abandoned. Sometime in the past few years there was a conflict over bolting in Boulder Canyon, Colorado. The party who had their bolts chopped alleged to the the County Sheriff that their hangers were "stolen." The District Attorney found that the gear was abandoned, and no charges were pressed.
The reason that there is a booty tradition in climbing is competitive. Those who fail to manage their time and resources pay the penalty of bailing. Those who husband their stuff, keep thier stuff.
Climbing has always been competitive, and the booty game is just one measure of that competitiveness.
I have found gear and I have left gear. I never resented those who picked up my bail gear. I was just happy to make it back safely and to have learned a lesson for a small price.
As to those who think they have the right to leave gear on a climb and dominate it because it is their "project," this is arrogant. Why is a 5.13 or 5.10 an allowable "project" but not a 5.4? How come a 5.12 climber can bring a climb down from the good style of on-sighting but a 5.5 climber is not allowed the same advantage?
Leaving gear detracts from the aesthetics of an area and invites criticism from non-climbers who see it as litter. Non-climbers do not recognize that the project is an artistic expression of leading edge studs(ettes).
The rock is a public resource. If you litter, don't expect others to safeguard your trash and bring it back to you.
I wish there were as much public outrage about dog feces left when no-one will pick that up.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 1:54 PM
Post #60 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: And I note that vertical_reality's personal profile admits that: "I've only been climbing for a short time..."
Oh sorry, I'm not a hardcore rc.comer since I haven't updated my profile since I joined the site about 2 years ago.
In reply to: If you bail and leave gear, it is booty. Plain and simple. It always has been and always will be.
I don't disagree with that. I disagree with being a total jackass who waits around knowing that numerous climbers are bailing out of a potentially dangerous situation and not giving them the chance to get their gear back after the situation subsides.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 2:10 PM
Post #61 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: I hope you guys don't ever need to be rescued at sea cuz your boat belongs to whoever saved your ass.
What movie did you see that in? You obviouly know nothing about marine salvage laws.
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 14, 2004, 3:10 PM
Post #62 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: Lastly resigned is spelled RESIGNED not rescined.
I love seeing stupid people post blatantly stupid things.
No one wrote recined, asshole.
However, both Largebarge and myself used the term rescind.
As in: rescind, vt 1. to take away, remove, take back. 2. to make void.
Now hustle back to high school english class and study for your vocab quiz.
|
|
|
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
May 14, 2004, 4:04 PM
Post #63 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2002
Posts: 440
|
i'm sensing some hostility here....
|
|
|
|
|
michael_layton
May 14, 2004, 7:00 PM
Post #64 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 20
|
Wow, it doesn't take much to get a post deleted.
So much for defending my statement, countering the flame directed towards me, and more importantly clarifying the original post of this thread.
Anyway, it all boils down to one's ability to 1.)read (he only bootied 2 pieces of gear guys) 2.)use one's brain to judge a person's intentions (i thing he was joking about nailing) 3.)understand sarcasm (zealots rarely can see past their own dogma).
so ok, maybe the joke question about bootyin' your dead partners gear was in poor form. I still think it was funny. :twisted: I will not resign to recined my orignal post.
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
May 14, 2004, 7:20 PM
Post #65 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: Oh sorry, I guess I'm not a rc.com geek like you since I haven't updated my profile since I joined the site about 2 years ago.
I did not mean to insult you, but did intend to point out that as a newer climber (and 2 years is still real new) perhaps you do not have the requisite experience to really judge the situation and traditions of booty at a larger trad crag. BTW: I have no profile, but am speaking from over 33 years climbing experience.
Like glencoe , I too used to frequent areas like Tahquitz after rain storms and gathered up tons of bail gear. I've also left gear behind to bail and I have never expected to get it back (and rarely have). It is the price you pay to descend in a situation where you determine you can't top out. Also, as pointed out, on the climb mentioned, you could easily descend (down aid) and retrieve your gear or just continue up despite the rain. Leaving a couple of pieces at your high point and cleaning the rest is not indicative of someone planning on returning.
In reply to: I wish there were as much public outrage about dog feces left when no-one will pick that up.
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 7:31 PM
Post #66 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: I did not mean to insult you,
Sorry about that, I changed my reply so that it's not directed at you.
In reply to: but did intend to point out that as a newer climber (and 2 years is still real new) perhaps you do not have the requisite experience to really judge the situation and traditions of booty at a larger trad crag. BTW: I have no profile, but am speaking from over 33 years climbing experience.
I'm aware of the existing booty etiquite, but come on isn't there any common courtesy left in climbing? I have no problem with people taking found gear, just certain situations may call for a little respect to fellow climbers.
Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it?
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
May 14, 2004, 7:57 PM
Post #67 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it?
How would you propose that the next guy figures out the length of time your gear was sitting there?
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 8:00 PM
Post #68 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: In reply to: Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it? How would you propose that the next guy figures out the length of time your gear was sitting there?
If you watch him bailing off the climb it's too soon.
|
|
|
|
|
mackavus
May 14, 2004, 8:44 PM
Post #69 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2002
Posts: 322
|
I really wanted to quit this stalemate, I did ... but in response to verticals last post, just for the record:
Funk never said he watched anyone bail.
Peace though.
|
|
|
|
|
mpepera
May 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
Post #70 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2002
Posts: 20
|
Think of abandoned gear as litter. If you leave something behind, why does the climbing community have to wait until you are strong enough or it is convenient to remove your trash?
If you leave gear behind in a route, it no longer belongs to you. You threw it away. Don't get upset if someone finds a use for your trash.
There is also a difference between lost and abandoned gear. Lost gear is a climbing shoe or cam left at the base of a crag. Abandoned is a piece of gear left on route to bail off of.
|
|
|
|
|
jefffski
May 17, 2004, 9:15 AM
Post #71 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 286
|
In reply to: All the “climbers” were gone by the time we got off Princely Ambitions, cleared out. ..... Booty Count, new metolius yellow tcu, small nut, three biners and a sling! .
on the face of it this seems almost reasonable. and the bootie wasn't all that much. mainly a tcu. but it's more than a stuck nut. these are important details, as least to me.
so i think you can claim it. it's not theft per se, but there is a small problem with your timing which begs (actually some people have spewed--and that is not necessary) a moral question. If they didn't steal it can/should they keep it? well for a biner i wouldn't bother with this question but, for the amount they bootied, the question is, i think relevant.
moral questions (if you have any-morals, that is) can be solved by taking the moral high road. in this case the moral high road might be to post a note on the bulletin board at the crag with your tel no. it shows you've made some effort beyond calling out "hey is this anybody's?" if after some time--say a week or two, its yours. clear and free.
As climbers it's nice to know that we can be free spirited adventurers who have no rules or laws but that we can still be mensches.
there's no point in my book in taking advantage of a situation you know nothing about. You've ASS U ME d that they bailed because it was raining).
and sometimes its just nice to be nice. otherwise you can go live in afghanistan or the US (ok that's a troll).
peace
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
May 17, 2004, 1:31 PM
Post #72 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
i read the begining of this thread, then didn't check it for a weekish, now i'm bored so i skimmed over the 4 freekin pages that yall wrote. i have a couple observations and points to make.
1. this thread sucks.
2. booty gear rules.
3. don't leave yer gear behind.
4. if ya leave it, its fair game.
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 17, 2004, 1:37 PM
Post #73 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Euro, you are just trying to sh*t disturb here. I am sure that after this entire thread, your opinion means very little. You should have just let it die. Thread is over, we all have our opinions. Some of us are THIEFS some aren't, some have ETHICS, some don't
Cheers, :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
May 17, 2004, 2:16 PM
Post #74 of 87
(6907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
the thread isn't over, it still had posts that i hadn't read and it was the top topic in the forum.
okay, now its over.
wait, not yet.
okay....
now!
|
|
|
|
|
col_sanderz
May 17, 2004, 2:26 PM
Post #75 of 87
(6706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2002
Posts: 138
|
I like to use this analogy that may be a little clearer: Alongside climbing, I love golfing. Being a poor college student involved in two expensive hobbies, I tend to take advantage of free stuff. I live near a close golf course with a good sized creek running throughout it. During the summer my cousin will take the canoe down to the creek, paddle into the course and clean the bottom of the creek of every possible golf ball. Some people look down on this because were being cheap asses and take others balls. However, if they plunk one into the water, take a drop, and move on, they left the ball there by choice. On the other hand, if we're in the water and see someone plunk a ball in there, we'll grab their ball for them and usually toss em a few more while we're at it. So basically, don't rob someone when you can identify the victim.
PS. I didnt read all the post before replying, so im hoping this exampple hasn't been given already.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
May 17, 2004, 8:17 PM
Post #76 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
In reply to: Euro, you are just trying to sh*t disturb here. I am sure that after this entire thread, your opinion means very little. You should have just let it die. Thread is over, we all have our opinions. Some of us are THIEFS some aren't, some have ETHICS, some don't Cheers, :shock:
I love it when kids yell that a thread is over. Funny as hell. As long as folks still want to post (and the thread isn't locked) it's still open season. I've even seen folks complain about being quoted. Not misquoted, but quoted. You should be willing to stand behind your words. Otherwise, what's the point of saying/writing them?
Anywho, col_sanderz brings up a fine point. Those willing to put the effort in where others aren't get the spoils. Most climbers I know will have mercy and return gear to the proper owners if given the chance. Some go so far as to post signs, which is certainly generous of them. The only things I wouldn't personally do is booty someone's gear right in front of them, or booty gear where a party retreated due to an accident.
If someone leaves gear, they are demonstrating that the value of the gear is less than the value of their life, time, etc. It is abandoned. It can't be stolen, as it was willingly left. It can only be claimed, either by the original owner or a new one. For the love of god, quit crying thief.
2¢,
mark
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 17, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #77 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Markc, you have no idea what you are talking about....and also, who is the kid, great assumption. You should have just played along, but as usual,,,,,go for personal attacks
You are just as bad as someone trying to end a thread it seems. Plus I was just trying to let the guy save face, cause it seems the core of people who were involved in the Thread have moved on, so maybe the thread isn't over Technically, but it is over. The opinions have been brought up, the dust settled and everyone has gone back to doing what they do.
No climber is going to change how they go about things cause of an internet thread, we all have too big of egos for that.
It's Over, well for me at least and the other 10 people who had some good points.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
markc
May 18, 2004, 1:36 PM
Post #78 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
In reply to: Markc, you have no idea what you are talking about....and also, who is the kid, great assumption. You should have just played along, but as usual,,,,,go for personal attacks Cheers
I knew the kid comment would get a rise. If my arguments are all straw men, you should have no trouble in refuting them. Have at. As your definitions of abandoned property versus theft vary so considerably from my own, I'd be interested in hearing them.
I've had gear bootied, and I've had it returned. I've returned property to other folks, and kept it when I couldn't return it. It's all a part of climbing. Being opportunistic is not the same as being a thief. Your opinion on that is obviously different.
Best,
mark
|
|
|
|
|
p_grandbois
May 18, 2004, 1:54 PM
Post #79 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 328
|
Mark, The truth of the matter is that I don't want to share my opinions with you, I already have. If you are that interested, read them. I don't feel like escalating another "flame" war. Make whatever assumption you want to about my age, truth is, again I don't care. I hope that in your senseless trolling of this site you get someone to bite. I hear candy works on little kids, try that. Your probing is annoying.
|
|
|
|
|
lockie
May 18, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #80 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2004
Posts: 9
|
How about it someone left gear in because it got dark?
That was my situation one time last year. Fair enough, enthusiasm led to an ill-advised late climb that ended with me half-way up, at the crux, in the dark. I knew it was dumb, so I got back there first thing the next day, before the park opened, and finished/cleaned the route, but knowing it was my fault wouldn't have meant I was less pissed if I returned to find someone had walked around after dark to check for gear on bailed routes. It seems like a similar situation, because had it been raining, I would have been similarly sketched out and inclined to bail. But if I'd heard of vultures checking for gear after dark, I would have been tempted to risk injury to save my new gear, that I'd worked no less hard for than veteran climbers who could top out the route in the dark.
|
|
|
|
|
woffles
May 19, 2004, 6:24 AM
Post #81 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 10, 2004
Posts: 57
|
I'm new to climbing so I don't know the "rules" to booty yet. I understand some things though. If I run my car into a ditch and can't get it out at the time and have to return the next day with a tow truck and you pull it out before I return and keep it you have just committed a crime.
If my boat breaks down at sea and I request a tow from someone, my boat does not become salvage and their property.
If I was climbing and got in trouble and had to bail and had the intention of coming back for my gear and you had taken it I would hope you had the moral standards to return it if possible. I would. I have ethics and live by them. It isn't hard and I sleep well at night.
Everybody has to make their own choices. I can't make them for you nor dictate them to you. All I can say is choose well and don't fall.
|
|
|
|
|
camoaero
May 19, 2004, 8:50 AM
Post #82 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2002
Posts: 48
|
ahhh :cry: .....
.....are you guys done?.....don't stop now...
.....quick!.....someone insult philly.....
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
May 19, 2004, 12:38 PM
Post #83 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
engine trouble isn't exacly an excuse that works for cams. and stop compairing modes of transportation to climbing gear. don't you realize how dumb that sounds??
cars and boats will become abandoned property if you leave them long enough. it just takes a bit longer for the abandoned part to happen on such large expensive stuff.
leaving gear becouse of darkness is not an acceptable excuse, you should have brought a headlamp.
and i thought i said this thread was over??
|
|
|
|
|
woffles
May 19, 2004, 2:22 PM
Post #84 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 10, 2004
Posts: 57
|
It just comes down to your ethics, nothing else. Peace.
|
|
|
|
|
rckjck12a
May 19, 2004, 9:42 PM
Post #85 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 18
|
You are a THEIF. Waiting around to collect left gear is a theif. Period!!!
If you wanted the gear so bad, why didnt you come back the next day and at least give the people a chance to collect there gear. They bailed for whatever reason, and maybee were going to come back and get it that day or the next. I hope that they left bad gear and it fails on you. It will clean out the theif gene pool.
|
|
|
|
|
valeberga
May 19, 2004, 9:47 PM
Post #86 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 434
|
In reply to: You are a THEIF. Waiting around to collect left gear is a theif. Period!!! If you wanted the gear so bad, why didnt you come back the next day and at least give the people a chance to collect there gear. They bailed for whatever reason, and maybee were going to come back and get it that day or the next. I hope that they left bad gear and it fails on you. It will clean out the theif gene pool.
Word. :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
bsignorelli
May 19, 2004, 10:16 PM
Post #87 of 87
(5951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 415
|
Awesome man...any litter/gear left in a climbing area is free to be picked up by anyone.
Maybe next time don't brag so loudly though :)
Bryan
|
|
|
|
|
|
