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sustainedclimber
Oct 13, 2004, 6:15 AM
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I was out at the daks last week with my friends, and I was doing a climb that didn't wander too far and I figured I might as well clip directly into my cam slings considering I have each cam racked on one biner. I should also mention that I have DMM cams, so I was able to extend the slings. When my second got up, I asked him what he thought, and he told me it was bad practice to do this, and that I should use draws whenever possible. My question to all of you: What do you think?? This is a forum, let's see some responses!
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ascender30
Oct 13, 2004, 6:27 AM
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Depends on the placement. Directly-clipped cams will wiggle and walk more readily than those with runners. Also consider the different directional pull if you were to climb off to one side, then fall.
I will clip directly to the cam sling biner if: I know it won't create rope drag; the piece can't walk; there won't be sideways pull on it if I fall; AND I think I need to save my draws. Otherwise, why not just put a draw on it, just to keep nudging the odds in your favor?
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joshklingbeil
Oct 13, 2004, 6:56 AM
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I will clip directly in to the cam if say I'm doing hard moves and the cam isn't going to walk or cause rope drag. But It's always good to use a sling.
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flamer
Oct 13, 2004, 3:27 PM
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The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!!
The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master.
Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
josh
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slobmonster
Oct 13, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: ...I asked him what he thought, and he told me it was bad practice to do this...
It sounds like you might be good at figuring things out for yourselves, pragmatically. Good on ya. Unfortunately, though, I think your friend(s) have been indoctrinated into some prescriptive behavior.
The reason that your cams came with sewn slings is so you can clip directly to them, if you so desire. For example, many harder, straight-in crack climbs do not deviate from their vector... rope drag will not be a problem. Clip draws or runners to your gear if the route wanders a bit, to keep the rope running straight.
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nthusiastj
Oct 13, 2004, 5:51 PM
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I also use DMM cams. So I can probably give good advice and experience on this. The only time I clip directly into my extended cam slings is in a straight up crack. Any other time I clip a trad draw on. I think that due to DMM's being lighter they tend to walk (slightly) easier.
So did he just not like the idea or did your cams walk to bad placements?
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chossmonkey
Oct 13, 2004, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!! The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master. Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. josh
Well said, there are times I clip nuts with just a biner. It totally depends on the situation. It can also be a bad practice to use excesive gear.
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petsfed
Oct 13, 2004, 6:04 PM
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Good old DMM cams. I'm not a big believer in extendable slings, but its often easier to throw a single sling onto the extended sling in lieu of a double sling. Anyway, if I can get away with it, I never use a sling on a cam. Keeps the falls shorter. It seems I can only get away with it in Indian Creek. If rope drag won't be an issue (plumb bob straight crack climb), by all means clip directly to the cam sling. And place the cams deep and well to prevent walking.
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bandycoot
Oct 13, 2004, 6:15 PM
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I probably clip a cam's sling more often than I add a sling. This is best done in parallel cracks. If the crack is uneven and there is a chance of the cam walking and opening or another related problem I clip a sling on it. Sounds like your friend likes to bring a lot of gear! A sling on a every piece on a long pitch with lots of gear would mean a lot of extra weight!
Josh
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dirtineye
Oct 13, 2004, 6:32 PM
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ROPE DRAG is bad, and you will almost always get some from short slinging your pro.
There's a big list of what can go wrong when you short clip, think about it.
Afraid of a little extra weight, or spending a little extra time as opposed to a walking cam or lifting nut, wow. Good sense of priority.
THE idea of slinging pro is that you want the top piece and the bottom piece to take all the force in a fall, and the others should rest undisturbed until or unless the top piece pulls. Almost nobody ever does it this way every time (there are exceptions and after all we are only human), including me, but it is still the ideal, for good reason.
But anyway, this gives the test for whether or not to extend and how far-- does the sling hang free, leaving the piece undisturbed, when the rope is drawn tight?
There are people who wish they had done it this way, but they can't post about it cause they are DEAD. I've got at least one friend who hit the ground, not to mention all the walked cams I've had the fun of cleaning, because of short clipping.
THere ain't no trad draws, they're called slings, and SportTards should stick to clipping bolts with their little dog bones.
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ikellen
Oct 13, 2004, 9:50 PM
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Unless the line you are climbing is very straight and direct (straight on splitter cracks such as those in Indian Creek would be an example), its a good idea to extend every piece. Rope drag really sucks, especially with nuts, as it will pull your nuts right out of their placements. It also sucks on pumpy climbs when you need to clip quick and it takes 5 seconds to get enough rope. Trad draws are relatively light, why not carry them?
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norushnomore
Oct 15, 2004, 9:43 AM
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Slings are overrated. Even more, why add a distance to your fall if you don't need to?
And trad draws idea is a complete waste of biners.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 15, 2004, 12:50 PM
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Dirt in eye seems a bit stressed over this issue :roll: Flamer had it right. it depends on the situation.
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slobmonster
Oct 15, 2004, 4:34 PM
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Well, his vision is obscured.
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sustainedclimber
Oct 15, 2004, 7:57 PM
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Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it?
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nthusiastj
Oct 15, 2004, 8:14 PM
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If you don't see the need to extend (again) with a trad draw, don't. I do it both ways depending on the situation. I've taken falls on a DMM non extended and fully extended with a trad draw.
As I asked earlier; was your partner complaining because your pieces walked? Or was it just that he would have done it differently?
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sustainedclimber
Oct 15, 2004, 8:16 PM
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Sorry about not answering your question, it was more so that he would have done it differently. I'm pretty sure nothing walked, and if it did he didn't say anything about it. It was more of an overall comment.
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dirtineye
Oct 15, 2004, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it?
First, the Goran Krop accident was possibly caused by short clipping, his belayer said they were using short sport draws and that he wished they had taken the time to switch out the biners to slings. So, I'm not being elitist, but in fact an elite climber lost his life, with short clipping possibly contributing, according to someone who was there. That's just one example.
Second, Did you ever bother to read what I wrote? Sometimes I short clip.
Third, if you are worried about a little more falling distance, as opposed to all the bad stuff that can happen when you short clip, that's your problem.
I've had my own gear walk in (not out thank goodness) from short clipping, I've watched friends spend 45 minutes retrieving a cam that walked because they short clipped it, and I know at least one person who hit the ground because of it.
IT bears repeating that if your rope, when drawn tight, affects any pieces other than the top and bottom one, you should have used more extension if you wish to avoid rope drag, piece walking, and other unwanted troubles.
Oh, to answer your last question, there are other reasons to extend the sling on a piece. For instance, keeping a biner off an edge or over an edge would be a good reason that has nothing to do with avoiding another foot or two of fall.
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nthusiastj
Oct 15, 2004, 8:25 PM
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Cool. Do it the way that you feel comfortable. You are on the sharp end after all.
J
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rockprodigy
Oct 15, 2004, 8:26 PM
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For me, extending is the exception, not the rule. But then, I don't climb chossy routes either.
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jcinco
Oct 15, 2004, 9:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. ... First, the Goran Krop accident was possibly caused by short clipping, his belayer said they were using short sport draws and that he wished they had taken the time to switch out the biners to slings. So, I'm not being elitist, but in fact an elite climber lost his life... ...
First off, and no offense to the memory of Goran Kropp, but he was far from an elite climber. As far as I understand, he was a relative novice as far as rockclimbing goes.
Second, if you're not being elitist, then what do you call this?
In reply to: THere ain't no trad draws, they're called slings, and SportTards should stick to clipping bolts with their little dog bones.
Trolling, perhaps?
In any case, your overall message which is lost in the attitude, is a good one... that its important to know how to properly runner a pitch.
There are two rules of thumb: 1) Runner the pieces so that the rope runs as close to straight as possible, from belay to belay. 2) Try to get a multidirectional placement (cam) as early on the pitch as possible, especially if the pitch wanders much. A multidirectional placement will resist an outward pull and minimize the "zipper" effect.
On straight up cracks at Indian Creek, Yosemite, etc..., you will rarely need to runner a cam. Stuck cams are more a result of a poor choice of placement then cam-walking (if cam-walking will be an issue then clip a draw to the piece).
On straight up, 160-foot sustained Devils Tower pitches, for example, its even OK to clip a biner directly to a nut (GASP!).
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reno
Oct 15, 2004, 9:37 PM
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I've clipped direct to the sling on some routes... usually the straight, splitter cracks (i.e. Paradise Forks, Indian Creek,) and I've no concerns about direction of fall.
Most of the time, however, I place at least a quickdraw, if not a trad sling draw.
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brutusofwyde
Oct 16, 2004, 12:40 AM
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One of the big advantages (advantage in this game nearly always being a double-edged sword) of the DMM system of extendable slings is that the allow you to extend the placement without an additional sling, draw, and/or carabiner. This makes them incredible tools for lightweight ascents, long routes, and backcountry climbs.
On a recent first ascent in the Sierra backcountry, I found myself extending placements (several times) using three shoulder-length runners in series to keep the rope drag at a reasonable level and to keep the rope away from razor-sharp edges. Later, on the same pitch after a desperate hand traverse into the meat of the crux, a straight-up crack, I was able (after the first few pieces) to clip directly into the DMM cams with absolute confidence that they would neither walk nor create otherprotection-failure-type-scenarios such as backzippering.
DMM cams are designed to be used in extended mode. or in short sling mode. Or, in fact, clipped directly to the cable for gaining a few inches with each aid placement.
It truly does DEPEND. As a GENERAL rule I extend MOST camalot placements. DMMs, I use their own, extended slings, maybe 50% of the time. It's a rare nut or stopper that does not need a full length runner, or at the very least, a screamer.
imho, ymmv, and rtd.
Brutus
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 16, 2004, 1:26 AM
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First time I ever heard of "trad draws" was on this site.
I typically use 2 12" slings off the ground and then full length for the rest of the route. Sometimes it is useful to double up a sling so that the rope will run better.
Indiancreek, the forks, the tower, and fremont canyon are just about the only places where I do use draws or nothing except a biner.
To the people who think using shorter slings and the attendant taking of a shorter fall, is preferable.
I think the reality is that you are often increasing the odds of getting seriously hurt. This is based on having watched a lot of beginner climbers climb.
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