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lazide
Oct 21, 2004, 12:30 AM
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Looks like this years freak storm has claimed two victims, hopefully everyone else makes it down alive.
Two Japanese Climbers Dead
And please tell me they weren't on the nose!
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ricardol
Oct 21, 2004, 12:40 AM
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by the posts in supertopo .. it sounds like they were on the nose ..
-- ricardo
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joshklingbeil
Oct 21, 2004, 1:04 AM
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This Sucks man. It kinda makes you think how easy you can go. Condolence go out to the the familys and loved ones.
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epic_ed
Oct 21, 2004, 1:27 AM
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Ah, damn. Damn, damn, damn. From stuff I've heard today, the YOSAR guys have been mighty heroic the last couple of days. I hope the aren't any further casualties.
Ed
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blouderk2
Oct 21, 2004, 2:07 AM
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Thats terrible. My wishes go out to the families. But how did they die? Did they freeze to death, or did they fall to their deaths?
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couchwarrior
Oct 21, 2004, 2:13 AM
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I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
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tgreene
Oct 21, 2004, 2:15 AM
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From all accounts, they were caught in a severe storm that consisted of heavy rain followed by snow... Hypothermia would be the cause of death.
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curt
Oct 21, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
So what? This is the internet--what the hell do you expect? :D
More seriously, my condolences also to the friends and family of these guys. This just goes to show (again) how unforgiving our sport can be to mistakes or errors of judgement. Please be careful out there.
Curt
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climberpunk
Oct 21, 2004, 2:23 AM
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My sincerest sympathies go out to the family and friends, losing those close to you is never easy, but at least know that they died doing what they loved.
And thanks to the YOSAR teams that have been working their asses off to save the more fortunate of us...
In reply to: I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
As morbid as this is, its also very important, in life, but especially in rock climbing, to learn from the deaths of our friends and colleauges. By understanding the conditions that lead up to the accident, we can avoid making the same mistakes, or take extra precautions. At least this lets us make some good of something so entirely tragic.
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nmoroder
Oct 21, 2004, 2:27 AM
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My condolences and prayers to the family and friends of these men.
Stay safe.
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fecalquisinart
Oct 21, 2004, 2:35 AM
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couchwarrior, you are an idiot...you complain about where the thread is going and then make the comments that you are afraid are coming?
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flamer
Oct 21, 2004, 2:39 AM
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In reply to: couchwarrior, you are an idiot...you complain about where the thread is going and then make the comments that you are afraid are coming?
And you're helping....(and so am I!!!)
I'll tip my hat to Yosar.....hope you all came through with not a rope burn or scrape....
josh
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couchwarrior
Oct 21, 2004, 2:40 AM
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In reply to: So what? This is the internet--what the hell do you expect? :D Curt
True. Don't know why I expect more from Al Gore's greatest invention. If nothing else, it gives little milkshakes like fecalcuisinart a forum to call people idiots.
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socalbolter
Oct 21, 2004, 4:44 AM
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YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK, Calif. -- Two Japanese climbers were found dead Wednesday in Yosemite National Park, dangling from a 3,200-foot sheer climbing face amid an early blizzard that caught hikers throughout the Sierra Nevada off-guard.
Rescuers pummeled by heavy snow and strong wind struggled to reach several stranded backpackers.
The climbers on El Capitan, the granite monolith in the Yosemite Valley that is among the world's best-known rock climbing spots, were spotted Tuesday by Yosemite rangers but could not be reached because of driving wind and snow.
A helicopter crew took off Wednesday as the storm began to clear and spotted the pair dangling lifeless about two-thirds of the way up the rock face, park ranger Deb Schweizer said.
"They weren't moving," she said. "They didn't seem well-equipped."
Rangers expected to be able to retrieve the bodies Thursday.
The Japanese men were among seven people on El Capitan when the brunt of the storm hit Tuesday, Schweizer said. A solo climber was rescued Wednesday, while rangers reached a man and a woman and were going to remain with them on the face overnight, Schweizer said. The other climbers only asked for extra supplies.
The blizzard raged at higher elevations through much of Wednesday, frustrating rescuers who labored against 4-foot-deep snow and 50 mph winds to reach the areas where the hikers were thought to be, at elevations from 8,000 to close to 10,000 feet.
"It's miserable," said Erica Stuart, spokeswoman for the Madera County Sheriff's Department.
The stranded hikers included two groups of experienced backpackers along with a couple from San Luis Obispo County who apparently set out for a day hike.
Rescue workers believe the hikers can survive if they find shelter and wait for the storm to pass. Storm clouds were expected to clear Thursday night, when temperatures were expected to plunge to zero through much of the central Sierra.
"It certainly is a bona fide blizzard condition," said Mark Burger, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service.
The missing couple was believed to have started on a two- to three-mile hike in the Sierra National Forest east of Fresno when they were caught in the storm, said Lt. Toby Rien of the Fresno County Sheriff's Department.
He said rescuers were fighting conditions they described as "whiteout, zero visibility."
Also in Sierra National Forest, four members of a Santa Cruz County winemaking family were reported missing Sunday after they failed to return from a two-day hike at a 9,400-foot-elevation lake northeast of Fresno.
A break in the weather late Wednesday allowed the Fresno County Sheriff's Department to dispatch a helicopter toward the group's location. It was to drop supplies if it spotted the hikers, sheriff's officer Robert Osborn said.
In a cabin at Shaver Lake near the sheriff's command post, several members of the family were awaiting word on their relatives, ages 16 to 47.
"It seems foolish to undertake this (hike). But in all fairness, they didn't know this storm was coming," said Rita Bargetto, sister of one of the missing men. "We just hope and pray they were smart enough to know they shouldn't have moved when the snow came."
Early Tuesday, the Madera County Sheriff's Department launched a search for four men from the San Francisco area who were believed to be stranded in the Ansel Adams Wilderness near the southern boundary of Yosemite National Park. The men had apparently changed the itinerary they left with family members, setting back rescue efforts.
Rescuers, including searchers riding snowmobiles, were thwarted in their attempts to find the group Wednesday. Continued bad weather turned away a military helicopter that had been called in for the search, Stuart said.
Family members said the men, ranging in age from 45 to 75, have experience camping in the snow. Authorities arranged for a military helicopter from Mather Air Force Base to search for the men once the weather breaks.
___
Associated Press Writer Tom Verdin in San Francisco contributed to this report.
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thomaskeefer
Oct 21, 2004, 4:51 AM
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Isnt this a fairly old report where essentially the bodies were frozen in place on the bolt ladder just beneath the summit?? I am guessing by the days mentioned (Tues and Wednesday) that it had nothing to do with the storm that pushed through the area over the last 4 days.. and is in fact just and old report.
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holdplease2
Oct 21, 2004, 5:09 AM
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No, thomas, this is today. See www.supertopo.com website for further discussion.
-Kate.
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milk
Oct 21, 2004, 5:29 AM
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how could they have avoided it? Is snow normal this time of year? was it forcasted?
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hugepedro
Oct 21, 2004, 5:40 AM
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In reply to: I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
You know what, climbers are a group of people who come together when stuff like this happens. We talk about it, we argue about it, and we usually learn from it. This sh_t is important to us because we all know that we are lucky to not be in the same boat as those we are discussing.
What have you contributed with your post?
ZERO.
Get a life.
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epic_ed
Oct 21, 2004, 6:00 AM
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Thanks to Tim for implementing the new "Merge Thread" feature. I combined the two posts covering this topic.
Ed
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 7:00 AM
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In reply to: I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 7:25 AM
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In reply to: how could they have avoided it? Is snow normal this time of year? was it forcasted?
This situation that has happened is most sad and extremely tragic. :cry:
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tgreene
Oct 21, 2004, 12:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: how could they have avoided it? Is snow normal this time of year? was it forcasted? I have spoken to the forest rangers who live in that general area and the weather can be changeable at ANY TIME from September on. Which means prepare for SUDDEN CHANGES in weather. More so in the higher elevations. While ElCap is by the valley floor, it's possible that these climbers, being Japanese, were visiting and had not known this history of the area. I actually had a trip to Red Rocks scheduled (Mon 18) to do some mulit-p starting the day before this storm was due to arrive. My partner & I watched it for 2 days and monitored it's progress. We decided to cancel at the last minute (Sun eve). The initial forcast of this storm's intensity was not evident from a planning point several days in advance and it accelerated as it moved across the state of Ca. Anybody in the valley floor, seeing a beautiful blue sky - and not having access to TV or weather reports could have easily been trapped. We can learn from this by carefully examining weather forcasts prior to departure on any adventure. If I was planning a long trip at a seaonal time of year for any area -- I would take along some sort of radio (2-way or otherwise) that can call to a recorded weather station. I think something is available for us outdoor animals. This situation that has happened is most sad and extremely tragic. :cry:
I recall telling you about the freak snowstorms that hammered us in the Tetons, in mid-August.
2 weeks after we returned home, my climbing partner and some friends were backpacking in Glacier NP, when 6 of the 8 turned back on day 2, because of an unexpected blizzard. My partner and his close friend were the 2 that elected to finish out the trip, after receiving additional supplies from those that bugged out.
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couchwarrior
Oct 21, 2004, 1:03 PM
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In reply to: You know what, climbers are a group of people who come together when stuff like this happens. We talk about it, we argue about it, and we usually learn from it. This sh_t is important to us because we all know that we are lucky to not be in the same boat as those we are discussing. What have you contributed with your post? ZERO. Get a life.
My original post was borne of my frustration of the corpse-kicking I see in here from time to time. I certainly welcome thoughtful discussion in the aftermath of such incidents but often see arrogance. This has been a largely useful and constructive thread and I apologize for generalizing based on a few previous experiences with runaway aholes who treat this forum like the late local lurid news.
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brad84
Oct 21, 2004, 1:06 PM
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In reply to: couchwarrior wrote: I can see where this thread is going. Ghoulish voyeurism, followed by insulting deconstruction of the event (they were idiots in cotton t-shirts, etc) that eventually winds down when something even more ghoulish and titilating happens.
If I were to die climbing, I would prefer for other climbers to disect the situation evaluating every choice that was made. It is imperative to learn not only from your mistakes but from other's mistakes as well. That way the learning curce isnt as brutal, and hopefully wouldnt claim as many victims (possibly?).
On the same token I'm not proposing to be cold and harsh to those who have died; have respect, but learn from their mistakes as well.
Climb safe, see some of you one the rock this weekend.
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hugepedro
Oct 21, 2004, 1:13 PM
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Peace.
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couchwarrior
Oct 21, 2004, 1:15 PM
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In reply to: If I were to die climbing, I would prefer for other climbers to disect the situation evaluating every choice that was made. It is imperative to learn not only from your mistakes but from other's mistakes as well. That way the learning curce isnt as brutal, and hopefully wouldnt claim as many victims (possibly?). On the same token I'm not proposing to be cold and harsh to those who have died; have respect, but learn from their mistakes as well. Climb safe, see some of you one the rock this weekend.
As I said in my ealier post, I don't disagree with this. It just seems that often, after the causes of the event are revealed, the careful dissection of the event ends and something less useful begins. That was the issue I was trying to raise but I agree we can learn from their mistakes and each other without being harsh and mean-spirited towards the dead.
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eastvillage
Oct 21, 2004, 2:15 PM
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In the Clint Eastwood film, "Unforgiven" the Schofield Kid, remarking to Eastwood's Bill Munney after killing two men, "I guess those two had it coming."
To which Eastwood replies: "We all got it coming, kid."
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 5:06 PM
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ok dingus -- you musta known this was coming...
WHO THE HE*L GOES TO A CHAT FORUM TO CHECK THE WEATHER..!
Do you think the the visiting Japanese in Yosemite have access to this.?
Regarding the mentioned URL:
In reply to: The weather is coming in next week with showers also..so that is a big consideration. Not sure which route would be safer in that respect.
In reply to: thanks, yeah all forcasts show a storm rolling through mid next week, but so far it doesn't look too serious.... |
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: ok dingus -- you musta known this was coming... WHO THE HE*L GOES TO A CHAT FORUM TO CHECK THE WEATHER..! Do you think the the visiting Japanese in Yosemite have access to this.?
Do you think they give a tinkers damn now? The weather reports are readily available, on line directly from the NWS, in the park itself, directly from the NPS. They even write it on the chalk boards at the guard shacks at each enterance.
In reply to: Regarding the mentioned URL: In reply to: The weather is coming in next week with showers also..so that is a big consideration. Not sure which route would be safer in that respect. Yea, and weather ALWAYS is coming... and going away before it gets to you sometimes. These people are also in Oregon. As mentioned farther down in the discussion (as I cannot check the URL for the weather forcasted from Oct. 14) the original poster of the forum (after checking the URL offered) says: In reply to: thanks, yeah all forcasts show a storm rolling through mid next week, but so far it doesn't look too serious.... enough said :robert:
Well it looks a tad more serious from this perspective, wouldn't you say?
That original poster you quoted is believed to be one of the people on El Cap right now, or is among the ones pulled off. he's a good climber who felt his ability to deal with the weater up to the task. More power to him, certainly out of my league.
The point is this... the weather in this part of California is VERY PREDICTABLE. At least one of the climbers up there knew it was coming and decided to persist. Anyone who calls this a 'surprise storm' just wan't paying attention.
Anyone who gets on a wall without checking the extended weather report seems to be missing a critical part of the planning process. Language seems irrelevant, but what do I know?
DMT
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iamthewallress
Oct 21, 2004, 5:26 PM
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Dingus...Consider Dave, the soloist who was rescued.
He was one (or 2?) pitch(es) from the top, overdue, and had been on the wall far longer than a weather report on the ground would be worth a damn. Probably 90%+ of his route was well protected, but just the top pitches usually aren't. I'd say that he was more unlucky than foolish, and that he weathered a storm that bad for that long says to me that he was decently prepared.
Yes, check the weather report, but sometimes, it's just grimmer and not that eaily within our ability to control these things.
Camp 6 gets extreme run off. Major waterfall. Even with bivy sacks the Japanese might have been in trouble in that kind of a watercourse. If they were on Camp 6 (the last bivy on the route) on Saturday when the storms hit, then it's possible that they intended to be off Saturday night, but did not go quite fast enough for that to happen. The weather reports that I saw earlier that week were not calling for rain until Sunday and sometimes when I looked, not till Monday, so yes they were shaving it close, but they weren't necessarily taking bigger risks that others of us have taken and gotten lucky taking.
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: I'd say that he was more unlucky than foolish, and that he weathered a storm that bad for that long says to me that he was decently prepared. Yes, check the weather report, but sometimes, it's just grimmer and not that eaily within our ability to control these things.
I am not saying ANY of them are or were foolish. I'm not even commented on their desire to climb in the face of a storm.
I am simply stating that this storm was well forecasted and was by no means a surprise, thanks in part to your post over a week ago. And you and I know too, a climber gets on a wall this time of year, that climber takes her chances. Simple as that.
But you wall climbers tend to minimize when reporting the real objective hazards associated with your craft with a modest 'it wasn't really that big a deal.' And yet, as we tend to see each year, despite the free climbs and record zings up fixed routes, climbing El Cap IS a big deal and it can kill. There are many climbers on this site and others who would do well to remind themselves of this from time to time. People a lot harder than you or I have been freaking killed on El Cap due to weather.
In the Rockies or even the high Sierra to a lesser extent, unexpected weather really isn't that 'unexpected.' But on the front range of the Sierra, big Pacific pumpers are usually forecasted a week out. They just are.
DMT
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ricardol
Oct 21, 2004, 6:12 PM
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dingus:
.. i think its the nature of the beast (big wall climbing) .. every down plays the risks while on the ground ..
-- ricardo
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: dingus: .. i think its the nature of the beast (big wall climbing) .. every down plays the risks while on the ground .. -- ricardo
I'm sure its true Bro. I only add this... it is more the nature of the Beast in October than it is in August, at least for sure in the Sierra.
Cheers
DMT
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iamthewallress
Oct 21, 2004, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: And you and I know too, a climber gets on a wall this time of year, that climber takes her chances. Simple as that. ...And yet, as we tend to see each year, despite the free climbs and record zings up fixed routes, climbing El Cap IS a big deal and it can kill. There are many climbers on this site and others who would do well to remind themselves of this from time to time. People a lot harder than you or I have been freaking killed on El Cap due to weather.
10 years ago this month my bf and his gf at the time were on the Salathe. No bad weather was predicted when they headed up. When they arrived at the Block bivy, what they would soon learn was one of the worst watercourses on El Cap, they saw big clouds building. They also saw lots of people bring loads up the Heart lines, starting up the Freeblast, coming up the trail...so they assumed that the weather report must be clear. So, they fixed their lines. The rain started that night and didn't stop for 3 days. We talked about this a lot yesterday and this morning...What they might have done differently, and whether or not they'd have survived this storm. They were OK after 2 nights and a day w/ only bivy sacks (and sleeping bags and rain suits...but no tarp or fly), but he told me this morning that if it had been 4 nights like this storm, they would likely have died. Nothing makes my own heart stop like hearing the person that I love say in effect and in all honesty, "If luck had only been slightly less in our favor, you wouldn't have ever known me."
Why did I sit in my office crying yesterday? Because it might have been him 10 years ago. Because it might have been me this week. Because it might be my partner in a few weeks. Because it was the nice guy that I met on the Royal Arches last spring, and I didn't know if he was alive or dead. Because the Japanese people were just up there trying to live out a dream, same as any of us when we either decide to take the risk or forget how big of a risk we take.
I think, at least I hope, that most of us know that the risk involved with climbing El Cap, especially in October, is always substantial. But to the extent that we all agree as big wall climbers, that trying to climb during a window of good weather is a risk worth taking, I hate to call someone negligent who perhaps took a bit longer than expect and missed their window. I guess I think that too many of us aim for that window and are sucessful (or lucky) with it to get too down on the folks who didn't quite pull it off. I'm not saying that we should be casual when we go up there...I think that we should be prepared as we can be, and respectful when it doesn't work out for someone else.
The easy lesson is to only climb in July and August when not only are storms not predicted, but unpredicted storms are unlikely...or at a minimum only get on walls when no rain is predicted anywhere in the extended forcast. This isn't a useful lesson for a lot of us though, because a lot of us would rather risk possible rain over likely desiccation.
It can happen any time...Not just October-May. In my profile I have pics of us spending a day waiting out the rain on Camp 5 in August 2003. That rain was totally unpredicted, but luckily didn't last too long and wastn't very cold. I did get to see Camp 6 with my own eyes though. Horrendous. Really. It would have been seriously unpleasant to be up there in that relatively warm summer rain last August. Being up there in just bivy sacks (or less) in the storm that we just had, is something too rough for me to imagine.
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mtnrsq
Oct 21, 2004, 6:21 PM
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Maybe Link or John can comment when things slow down.
From the park.
http://www.nps.gov/yose/news/2004/sard1020.htm
Hot off the press - all the missing folks have been located and are being brought out. It appears that everyone is O.K.
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 6:34 PM
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I'm not going to banter with you dingus -- too much typing and I have other things to do today. :D I will leave it now as "I agree to disagree" and let others here bring up the slack.
Your obviously missing my points made and your comparing apples to oranges which we will never agree upon. Cheers ~ :lol: 8^)
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: I'm sure its true Bro. I only add this... it is more the nature of the Beast in October than it is in August, at least for sure in the Sierra.
Yeah, I think I mentioned this in my prior post that you appeared to slam in it's entire-tee. Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather...
aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 6:46 PM
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In reply to: The easy lesson is to only climb in July and August when not only are storms not predicted, but unpredicted storms are unlikely...or at a minimum only get on walls when no rain is predicted anywhere in the extended forcast. This isn't a useful lesson for a lot of us though, because a lot of us would rather risk possible rain over likely desiccation.
See, you're doing it too, first acknowledging the risk, and in the very next paragraph minimizing it, calling it the 'easy lesson and the risk itself is chacterized merely as 'rain.'
October in the Sierra usually sees at least one big snow storm. Many visiting people don't seem to understand this is one of the snowiest ranges on the planet, with sow dumps that dwarf anything back east except perhaps Buffalo and environs.
Ask that last question with the risk clearly delineated...
Would you rather risk death through exposure by trying to climb through a 2 foot snow storm to get one more wall in this season? The main point, and really the only point I'm trying to make, is for folks to have some respect for California winter weather.
To those capable of dealing, I salute you.
DMT
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ricardol
Oct 21, 2004, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm sure its true Bro. I only add this... it is more the nature of the Beast in October than it is in August, at least for sure in the Sierra. Yeah, I think I mentioned this in my prior post that you appeared to slam in it's entire-tee. Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather... aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
dude .. forget about what anyone says .. or doesn't say -- its a pretty fucked up thing that people died in a storm .. and thats all thats important right now --
not who posted what .. and who was right or wrong ..
like melissa .. this event has shocked me .. not only because i know one of the people who got rescued .. but because i've wondered if this had occurred 1 1/2 weeks ago what epic i would have been stuck in.
-- ricardo
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clymber
Oct 21, 2004, 6:47 PM
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i have a friend that bailed off the nose...the 2 Japanese guys that died where the team ahead of them....
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 6:50 PM
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[quote"pheenix"]Yeah, I think I mentioned this in my prior post that you appeared to slam in it's entire-tee. Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather...
aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
Actually, what you said in your prior post was: In reply to: I'm not going to banter with you dingus -- too much typing and I have other things to do today.
Too bad you can't keep your word. Predickshun... you will post again.
DMT
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I'm sure its true Bro. I only add this... it is more the nature of the Beast in October than it is in August, at least for sure in the Sierra. Yeah, I think I mentioned this in my prior post that you appeared to slam in it's entire-tee. Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather... aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol: dude .. forget about what anyone says .. or doesn't say -- its a pretty f--- up thing that people died in a storm .. and thats all thats important right now -- not who posted what .. and who was right or wrong .. like melissa .. this event has shocked me .. not only because i know one of the people who got rescued .. but because i've wondered if this had occurred 1 1/2 weeks ago what epic i would have been stuck in.
Dude -- I think you missed my ORIGINAL post. -- And like my prior post states, I'm not going to continue to banter anything on this forum...
:deadhorse:
Peace ~ :D
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: [quote"pheenix"]Yeah, I think I mentioned this in my prior post that you appeared to slam in it's entire-tee. Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather... aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
Actually, what you said in your prior post was: In reply to: I'm not going to banter with you dingus -- too much typing and I have other things to do today.
Too bad you can't keep your word. Predickshun... you will post again
Didn;t want to dissapoint you din-gee... :lol:
[spray] You just left yourself too WIDE open on that one line and I couldn't resist to help you put your foot into your own mouth... :P
aHAHAHAHAHA ~ Prediction -- you may or MAY NOT post again.
Whatever :deadhorse: Later ~
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iamthewallress
Oct 21, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Dingus, I was using "easy" in a tongue and cheek way. I certainly hope that you don't interpret my post as saying that we all should climb in October...more just a recognition of the fact that many of us will. I agree with many of your points, but just feel less cut-and-dry about some of it.
If it give any more perspective to the whole "unpredicted October storms can be viscious" lesson, here's a copy of the incident report from the rescues on October 4, 1994.
In reply to: 94-598 - Yosemite (California) - Multiple Rescues In the early morning hours of October 4th, the park was hit by an unpredicted wet storm in which Yosemite Valley received approximately two inches of rain over a 24 hour period. Since fall is the peak of the big wall climbing season in Yosemite, there were many parties on El Capitan, and several were signalling for rescue by early afternoon. Because of the bad weather, helicopters were unable to fly. A ground approach to the top of El Capitan was accordingly begun that afternoon. Approximately 40 people and a string of mules were used to haul equipment over the eight miles of trail to the summit of El Cap in a continuous downpour. When it got dark, the rain turned to snow above the 7,000-foot level. It snowed most of the night, and the entire team spent an extremely unpleasant wet and cold night. About half a foot of snow fell in the area. The precipitation stopped by morning, permitting team members to set up a lowering operation at the top of the Nose. Rescuers were lowered 600 feet to Camp Six on the Nose route. Nine stranded climbers from four countries, who spoke three different languages, were squeezed on a ledge which is considered crowded with three people on it. Four of them were in early stages of hypothermia. With the assistance of rescuers, all nine ascended the ropes to the top. While the group from the Nose was ascending, a party of two Americans on the Salathé Wall route signaled that they also needed to be rescued. As a rescuer was being lowered the 700 feet to them, a third party, comprised of a Norwegian and an Englishman, yelled from their position on the Sunkist route that they could not make it through another night. They were hanging in a porta-ledge which was in a small waterfall and their gear was completely soaked. After NPS rescuers reached them and the weather improved, all 13 victims ascended the fixed ropes to the top under their own power and were eventually flown off by helicopter. Several were transferred to the Yosemite clinic for treatment of cold injuries to their hands and feet. All gear and personnel were flown off the following day. [YOSE, 10/11] |
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: I certainly hope that you don't interpret my post as saying that we all should climb in October...more just a recognition of the fact that many of us will. I agree with many of your points, but just feel less cut-and-dry about some of it.
Yup I did understand. I don't disagree with you either. But the fact that there are surprise storms doesn't mean its a waste of time checking the weather reports for the predicted ones. Clearly you feel the same.
Personally, I don't ever want to know what it's like to ride out a snow storm like this high on El Cap. Period. I don't want to know if I am tough enough and good enough to survive. I DO NOT WANT TO *KNOW.*
I suggest a good many prospective wall climbers would feel the same way... if they actually gave it its due consideration.
I haven't said one ill word about the hard asses that are suffering though this storm, other than to suggest that I do not want to be among them, ever.
Cheers
DMT
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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: ...If it give any more perspective to the whole "unpredicted October storms can be viscious" lesson, here's a copy of the incident report from the rescues on October 4, 1994. In reply to: 94-598 - Yosemite (California) - Multiple Rescues In the early morning hours of October 4th, the park was hit by an unpredicted wet storm in which Yosemite Valley received approximately two inches of rain over a 24 hour period. ...etc...[YOSE, 10/11]
Exactly my point. Storms DO happen unpredictably, AND the one that we are all referring to in this post was NOT even predicted as being severe in advance by the weather specialists. VERY PREDICTABLE ALWAYS = NOT (as referring to my post which you so "politely" put asunder.... :o
In reply to: Do you think they give a tinkers damn now? The weather reports are readily available, on line directly from the NWS, in the park itself, directly from the NPS. ... The point is this... the weather in this part of California is VERY PREDICTABLE. At least one of the climbers up there knew it was coming and decided to persist. Anyone who calls this a 'surprise storm' just wan't paying attention.....DMT
My definition of "banter" is to go on...and on about things that do not contribute directly to this forum. It is NOT referring to "posting". I was being respectful of everyones time - some poeple choose not to appreciate kindness, have any respect... and continue to banter or encourage themselves to be sprayed ... nuff said ~ :wink:
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boltdude
Oct 21, 2004, 8:20 PM
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Sierra weather can lull you into complacency, it happens all the time. Many fall "storms" are just a little drizzle, clouds, nothing major. Many summer storms are just thunderstorms, or another minor event.
But sometimes they're not. My father got caught in a major storm that came in at the end of May on Memorial Day weekend in 1979 (or 80?), he was hiking and peakbagging and the storm hit. He made it back over the pass (he came in over Lamarck Col, a nearly 13,000' pass), meeting a couple folks along the way who were already hypothermic, with none of the right gear. He gave them his sleeping bag and everything else he could, then went on, plowing through neck-deep snow (he's 6' tall), and eventually making it back to the road. The people he'd met died, as did others that weekend, and he credits his survival to his Gore-Tex gear (relatively new at the time).
Note that we're talking FIVE FEET of snow on Memorial Day weekend!
Sierra weather is so nice so much of the time that it's easy to forget how bad it can get.
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: Wipe off the glass and stop breathing so heavy, your fogging things up. :lol: :lol: :lol:
In reply to: I have spoken to the forest rangers who live in that general area
In reply to: ok dingus -- you musta known this was coming... WHO THE HE*L GOES TO A CHAT FORUM TO CHECK THE WEATHER..!
In reply to: I actually had a trip to Red Rocks scheduled (Mon 18) to do some mulit-p starting the day before this storm was due to arrive. My partner & I watched it for 2 days and monitored it's progress. We decided to cancel at the last minute (Sun eve).
In reply to: enough said :robert:
In reply to: I'm not going to banter with you dingus -- too much typing and I have other things to do today.
In reply to: Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather... aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
In reply to: I'm not going to continue to banter anything on this forum... :deadhorse: Peace ~ :D
In reply to: [spray] You just left yourself too WIDE open on that one line and I couldn't resist to help you put your foot into your own mouth... :P aHAHAHAHAHA ~ Prediction -- you may or MAY NOT post again. Whatever :deadhorse: Later ~
In reply to: I was being respectful of everyones time - some poeple choose not to appreciate kindness, have any respect... and continue to banter or encourage themselves to be sprayed ... nuff said ~ :wink: |
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tim
Oct 21, 2004, 9:35 PM
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bump
;-)
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hobbes427
Oct 22, 2004, 7:24 AM
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This is a true tragedy; they seemed like nice folks. What I learned? Always roll with full storm gear including:
Rain jacket
Rain pants
Waterproof gloves
A complete change of clothes
Bivy sack (or ledge with a fly, preferably both)
This list seems excessive on the ground, but when it really starts raining on the wall, it hardly seems like enough. Apparently, their only shelter was a tarp.
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 2:52 PM
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I just noticed the AP wire service is running pics of the dead climbers on el cap dangling from their ropes....
All I can say is this is tasteless....well, I have stronger words to describe my option, but I won't use them...
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timstich
Oct 22, 2004, 3:23 PM
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Didn't see that photo. There are also photos of rescuers rappelling. Several other climbers survived the storm on El Cap and got some help off.
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sarcat
Oct 22, 2004, 3:27 PM
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I saw one pic on the AP service. You can't see much other than the rescuer and a port-a-ledge. It's tasteless but not grusem.
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iamthewallress
Oct 22, 2004, 3:28 PM
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There are lots of updates on the Supertopo thread...If this situation scares anyone else as much as it scares me, then there will be at least two of us who will be even more careful in the future...I looks like the last party is coming down today. This storm started on Saturday, so they've been toughing it out for nearly a week now. I can't even imagine how harsh that must be. I hope that there stuff got nice and dry yesterday.
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 4:09 PM
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tastless AP pics:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/102104hikersrescued&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=10&a=0&t=&prev=9
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/102104hikersrescued&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=16&a=0&t=&prev=15
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dingus
Oct 22, 2004, 4:40 PM
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The Sacramento Bee ran one of these evac photos as the lead story on the front page of the paper this morning.
I was not offended in the least by that pic and the notion of offense didn't even occur to me until I visited this thread again.
The accompanying story seemed well written. The focus was on saving people, there was no recrimination in the story at all as far as I read.
It IS a major human interest story. I'd rather the paper ran the photos they took than suppress them, as they do in Iraq. This is one truth we climbers should really try not to shut out. I think it is a good thing we are confronted with this. My daughter showed it to me this morning, it was forefront on her mind.
That led to a conversation about climbing risk. We talked about weather reports, surprise surprise. Anyway, I think feeling and talking our way though these tragedies is useful.
Don't shy away from the pics. Just becasue they may be tasteless doesn't make them useless as well.
Cheers
DMT
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 4:45 PM
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I have no problem with the photo of the SAR guys working -
They show how involved a rescue is, etc...
But dead bodies hanging off ropes shows what? Dead bodies dangle? It sucks to die? I haven't seen one photo of the couple when they were alive to show the real cost of their deaths...
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blue_ice
Oct 23, 2004, 3:45 AM
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We should all just remeber that these good people were our brothers in a sport that has inherent risks. We can suppose that weather reports were ignored or taken lightly, that risks were minimalized, that proper preparations weren't made. We can also criticize the media for what pictures they show or what they say about our fallen brothers. What we should do in respect for the Japanese team is know that they perished doing something they loved. Let them rest in peace.
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timstich
Oct 23, 2004, 3:52 AM
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There's a guy over on supertopo that thinks he might have met the couple before they got on El Cap. Said they were pretty nice folks and really psyched about doing a wall.
Don't sweat too much how the media handles these things. That part of it doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the big scheme of things.
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blue_ice
Oct 23, 2004, 4:04 AM
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Exactly, good people doing what they loved.
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powrslave
Oct 23, 2004, 7:35 PM
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Let me first start out by saying that this ordeal is indeed a sad one. It really does suck to see people succeeding so well one minute and then dead the next. All because of their drive to get off the couch. It really blows.
That aside, I can personally admit that there have been several times where I was lucky myself, so I am far from the soapbox on this one, but what we must do is constructively analyze what went wrong for this pair of climbers so that we can learn from whatever mistakes they made.
I have not yet determined if the weather forecast was crappy or if they had anyway of knowing even if it was, but even I know about the potential hazards of Yosemite walls in mid-late fall, and I live way out here in the Colorado Rockies.
Now, perhaps they were prepared or thought that they were. It could have been something simple like they misplaced their bivys or their portaledge broke. Someone mentioned something about the team only having a tarp. I am not sure what good a tarp would do anywhere except on top of El Cap after a long climb.
Might I ask the resident valley big wall climbers what types of specific gear they carry up the wall during sept-oct? I doubt that rain pants/jacket will do jack for several days in a storm of this caliber, but what would a modern portaledge with a rainfly be capable of? What about one of those cool Bibler I-tents that come modified for portaledge use? Would a shelter such as this suffice in such a storm with water running down the wall?
I am curious about this last situation because it echoes the past conundrum that Rowell and Harding faced back in the day. I expect if those two had modern equipment available back in the 60s that their situation would have been much more pleasant.
Anyhow, I don't mean to come off as a careless person, but I think that the internet is a good medium to quickly and effectively explain various viewpoints about this sort of thing. I mean, just think about it: 15 years ago nobody had access to this kind of information and nobody could so easily discuss climbing with such a diverse group of people. Reading about successes and failures and offering opinions should be considered a good thing, as long as it is kept constructive.
Regards,
PowrSlave
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iamthewallress
Oct 25, 2004, 2:51 PM
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Powerslave...
People rarely haul portaledges on the Nose, which has bad hauling and an abundance of natural ledges. It's not exceptional that the Japanese team would not have brought one. A tarp is somehting often touted as essential storm gear for folks heading up walls w/ natural ledges. You bivy sack is your basic bivy dryness layer, but places like Camp 6 where the Japanese team was stranded are full-on waterfalls. By pitching a tarp (see pmyches description in the Safety Tips thread in the Aid forum) will keep the waterfall from pounding directly on your sack and will keep you from laying directly in the pool. When my bf was rescued off of the Salathe 10 years ago after spending 3 days in a waterfall he did not have a tarp. He thinks that this simple item would have made an enourmous difference in the degree to which they suffered and the speed with which they started succumbing to the cold and wet.
John Dill's "Staying Alive in Yosemite" (you can find it on the internet) has a lot of the good points...Check the weather but always expect the worst, wear synthetic insulating layers, no cotton, have a rainsuit, have a waterproof bivy (and tarp), don't use a down bag, try to get out of the rain before you get wet.
I don't know what precautions the Japnese team did or did not take. Even with safey precautions, the top of the Nose is still a very dangerous place to be exposed in a storm. We shouldn't think that just because we have our bivy bag and rain suit that we've made it safe.
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dingus
Oct 25, 2004, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: I am curious about this last situation because it echoes the past conundrum that Rowell and Harding faced back in the day. I expect if those two had modern equipment available back in the 60s that their situation would have been much more pleasant.
Conundrum? Rowell wanted to come down as the storm approached and Harding was too stubborn to listen. Once the rain started it was too late. And in his day, Harding had the best gear available. He made it himself.
John Middendorf and company were rescued from the same wall in very similar circumstances, a wet winter storm, using modern gear, trying to sneak one more wall in before winter.
The conventional wisdom says there is no modern gear up to the task if you find yourself in the wrong place, such as under a water fall. Since climbers and water tend to seek the same lines, you do the math.
I'll be blunt... the attitude of 'tell me what gear to take so I can risk wall climbing in October' might not be the best thing for non-expert wall climbers to consider. I would suggest that people like me don't belong on walls in October. I certainly want no part of a Sierra winter storm on a rock wall. I'd much rather be skiing. I would suggest the same for most of you too. Go skiing.
The thing I admire most about good wall climbers is that they possess an attribute I have trouble mustering for multiday adventures... commitment. The good ones have it in spades, truckloads of it. It's their schtick. That's what you need to be a good wall climber, more than any other attribute really. The ability to commit to a route and stay with it. Ironically, that very same power can be turned on a climber, when the world turns to shit. Is that the person you want to take your lead from?
Make no mistake... the bulk of the parties affected by this storm would be (are) considered good wall climbers with the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing. They are out of my league in other words. That single fact alone ought to give some budding wall climbers some additional perspective. Some of these people would go back up there again (read... WILL go back up there again, maybe even this fall), given the exact same set of starting conditions. NOW THAT IS COMMITMENT.
DMT
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sspssp
Oct 25, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: Make no mistake... the bulk of the parties affected by this storm would be (are) considered good wall climbers with the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing. They are out of my league in other words. That single fact alone ought to give some budding wall climbers some additional perspective. Some of these people would go back up there again (read... WILL go back up there again, maybe even this fall), given the exact same set of starting conditions. NOW THAT IS COMMITMENT.
I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
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dingus
Oct 25, 2004, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
I don't know and don't want to know. I am content to be a big wall weather non-wanabe.
I can guess HOW NOT TO go about it though...
Don't go out and drop a couplaK on "storm gear" recommended by others and then head up on an overhanging wall route mid Oct with a storm barreling down on ya to test that gear.
The folks who ride out storms and then KEEP CLIMBING are not normal. They are not normal people and more importantly to us on this forum, they are not normal climbers either.
Normal folks who want to be like them, to be THAT hard, will need to check their normalcy at the NPS gate on their way in the park.
I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone. But good wall climbers are not a dime a dozen. They are a select breed if you will, and most of US do not belong up there with them.
True.
DMT
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iamthewallress
Oct 25, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
I think that people who aim to actually climb El Cap in a storm are few an far between. It seems to me that most of craziest winter wallers out there are more aiming to just be able to hunker down and survive a storm and then top out w/o rescue after its over in the event that a big one comes along while they are on the wall. Like in mountaineering, most winter climbers aim for the window of good weather to make their summit bids...Usually they're not heading up when they expect it to be raging.
FWIW, I go to Yosemite year round and I just don't see legions of bad asses heading up El Cap in the winter. Sometimes you see one day parties on the Nose when there's been enough of a warm spell to melt the ice off the summit pitches, and sometimes there are parties on a couple of routes known to be pretty 'storm protected'. Sadly, a guy died fixing ropes on one of these 'good winter routes' last year when the storm blew in and he couldn't return to his pack at the base fast enough. So, even getting on one of the 'good winter routes' in stormy weather takes a few sides off the dice that you're using for your crap shoot.
Climbing in colder 'stormy' climes is a different beast (and one that I know zilch about first hand) because it's more snowy/frozen and less wet.
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ricardol
Oct 25, 2004, 5:00 PM
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how many big wall climbers are 100% sure that their storm gear is up to snuff .. until its been tested in a real storm ..
.. you take what you think will save your butt ... and strike a balance for weight and bulk ..
.. i echo DMT's post, and hope to never have to test my gear on a full-blown storm ona cliff-face ..
.. also .. what most people probably dont realize is how quickly a storm will inmobilize you .. i was once on the fixed lines up to the heart (just out having fun) when it starter raining... then sleeting .. i was up there without a jacket and no storm gear .. it took only a few minutes to get REALLY cold .. --
-- ricardo
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lambone
Oct 25, 2004, 5:05 PM
Post #74 of 77
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Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
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While the climbers were suffering at the top of El Cap during last weeks storm, we decided to go climb the first pitch of the North America Wall just to get a taste of it all. Being from Seattle and Vancouver...aiding in the rain was nothing new to us.
Aiding in the rain is one thing, aiding in a WATERCOURSE is a full on nightmare. I have a whole new respect for the amount of water that pours off El Cap. Get stuck in the wrong place and you could easily die.
I heard the Japanesse climbers last screams from the meadow...very sad.
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kit
Oct 25, 2004, 5:20 PM
Post #75 of 77
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Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 16
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i just got back into civilization from the valley and was horrified to hear about all of this. just a week ago i was sitting around a camp fire with them, and was really worried on my way out last tuesday that they hadn't come down yet.
very sad. very sad indeed.
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justsendingits
Oct 26, 2004, 1:28 AM
Post #76 of 77
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 1070
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When I first got my cliff cabana with the Exp. fly, I did not liket he fly cause it is hard to set up the ledge inside the fly.
I almost sold the Exp. fly, wanting the regular fly.
Then I got cought in a freezing storm on the freeblast on el cap and found out what it can be like up there, and how fast it all goes down!!
I will never get rid of the Exp. fly, I can just crawl inside of it with the ledge already set up. Or just take the fly with no ledge.
ALL bivy sacks and fly's should be seam sealed!! I might even re-seal my fly as I will make an FA attempt on Mt. Hooker this winter.
Did Dave or any of the other climbers have a stove??
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ricardol
Oct 26, 2004, 4:15 AM
Post #77 of 77
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
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In reply to: Did Dave or any of the other climbers have a stove??
dave had a stove .. we talked about about it right before he started up tempest ..
I'd think that dave was well equipped since he was going up ready to spend over 15 days on the wall, and therefore had to be prepared for anything.
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