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pheenixx
Oct 21, 2004, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: ...If it give any more perspective to the whole "unpredicted October storms can be viscious" lesson, here's a copy of the incident report from the rescues on October 4, 1994. In reply to: 94-598 - Yosemite (California) - Multiple Rescues In the early morning hours of October 4th, the park was hit by an unpredicted wet storm in which Yosemite Valley received approximately two inches of rain over a 24 hour period. ...etc...[YOSE, 10/11]
Exactly my point. Storms DO happen unpredictably, AND the one that we are all referring to in this post was NOT even predicted as being severe in advance by the weather specialists. VERY PREDICTABLE ALWAYS = NOT (as referring to my post which you so "politely" put asunder.... :o
In reply to: Do you think they give a tinkers damn now? The weather reports are readily available, on line directly from the NWS, in the park itself, directly from the NPS. ... The point is this... the weather in this part of California is VERY PREDICTABLE. At least one of the climbers up there knew it was coming and decided to persist. Anyone who calls this a 'surprise storm' just wan't paying attention.....DMT
My definition of "banter" is to go on...and on about things that do not contribute directly to this forum. It is NOT referring to "posting". I was being respectful of everyones time - some poeple choose not to appreciate kindness, have any respect... and continue to banter or encourage themselves to be sprayed ... nuff said ~ :wink:
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boltdude
Oct 21, 2004, 8:20 PM
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Sierra weather can lull you into complacency, it happens all the time. Many fall "storms" are just a little drizzle, clouds, nothing major. Many summer storms are just thunderstorms, or another minor event.
But sometimes they're not. My father got caught in a major storm that came in at the end of May on Memorial Day weekend in 1979 (or 80?), he was hiking and peakbagging and the storm hit. He made it back over the pass (he came in over Lamarck Col, a nearly 13,000' pass), meeting a couple folks along the way who were already hypothermic, with none of the right gear. He gave them his sleeping bag and everything else he could, then went on, plowing through neck-deep snow (he's 6' tall), and eventually making it back to the road. The people he'd met died, as did others that weekend, and he credits his survival to his Gore-Tex gear (relatively new at the time).
Note that we're talking FIVE FEET of snow on Memorial Day weekend!
Sierra weather is so nice so much of the time that it's easy to forget how bad it can get.
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dingus
Oct 21, 2004, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: Wipe off the glass and stop breathing so heavy, your fogging things up. :lol: :lol: :lol:
In reply to: I have spoken to the forest rangers who live in that general area
In reply to: ok dingus -- you musta known this was coming... WHO THE HE*L GOES TO A CHAT FORUM TO CHECK THE WEATHER..!
In reply to: I actually had a trip to Red Rocks scheduled (Mon 18) to do some mulit-p starting the day before this storm was due to arrive. My partner & I watched it for 2 days and monitored it's progress. We decided to cancel at the last minute (Sun eve).
In reply to: enough said :robert:
In reply to: I'm not going to banter with you dingus -- too much typing and I have other things to do today.
In reply to: Pick your words (and battles) more accurately and maybe YOU TOO can pre-di*k the weather... aHAHAHAHAHAH ~ :lol: :lol: :lol:
In reply to: I'm not going to continue to banter anything on this forum... :deadhorse: Peace ~ :D
In reply to: [spray] You just left yourself too WIDE open on that one line and I couldn't resist to help you put your foot into your own mouth... :P aHAHAHAHAHA ~ Prediction -- you may or MAY NOT post again. Whatever :deadhorse: Later ~
In reply to: I was being respectful of everyones time - some poeple choose not to appreciate kindness, have any respect... and continue to banter or encourage themselves to be sprayed ... nuff said ~ :wink: |
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tim
Oct 21, 2004, 9:35 PM
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bump
;-)
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hobbes427
Oct 22, 2004, 7:24 AM
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This is a true tragedy; they seemed like nice folks. What I learned? Always roll with full storm gear including:
Rain jacket
Rain pants
Waterproof gloves
A complete change of clothes
Bivy sack (or ledge with a fly, preferably both)
This list seems excessive on the ground, but when it really starts raining on the wall, it hardly seems like enough. Apparently, their only shelter was a tarp.
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 2:52 PM
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I just noticed the AP wire service is running pics of the dead climbers on el cap dangling from their ropes....
All I can say is this is tasteless....well, I have stronger words to describe my option, but I won't use them...
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timstich
Oct 22, 2004, 3:23 PM
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Didn't see that photo. There are also photos of rescuers rappelling. Several other climbers survived the storm on El Cap and got some help off.
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sarcat
Oct 22, 2004, 3:27 PM
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I saw one pic on the AP service. You can't see much other than the rescuer and a port-a-ledge. It's tasteless but not grusem.
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iamthewallress
Oct 22, 2004, 3:28 PM
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There are lots of updates on the Supertopo thread...If this situation scares anyone else as much as it scares me, then there will be at least two of us who will be even more careful in the future...I looks like the last party is coming down today. This storm started on Saturday, so they've been toughing it out for nearly a week now. I can't even imagine how harsh that must be. I hope that there stuff got nice and dry yesterday.
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 4:09 PM
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tastless AP pics:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/102104hikersrescued&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=10&a=0&t=&prev=9
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/102104hikersrescued&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=16&a=0&t=&prev=15
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dingus
Oct 22, 2004, 4:40 PM
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The Sacramento Bee ran one of these evac photos as the lead story on the front page of the paper this morning.
I was not offended in the least by that pic and the notion of offense didn't even occur to me until I visited this thread again.
The accompanying story seemed well written. The focus was on saving people, there was no recrimination in the story at all as far as I read.
It IS a major human interest story. I'd rather the paper ran the photos they took than suppress them, as they do in Iraq. This is one truth we climbers should really try not to shut out. I think it is a good thing we are confronted with this. My daughter showed it to me this morning, it was forefront on her mind.
That led to a conversation about climbing risk. We talked about weather reports, surprise surprise. Anyway, I think feeling and talking our way though these tragedies is useful.
Don't shy away from the pics. Just becasue they may be tasteless doesn't make them useless as well.
Cheers
DMT
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sfotex
Oct 22, 2004, 4:45 PM
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I have no problem with the photo of the SAR guys working -
They show how involved a rescue is, etc...
But dead bodies hanging off ropes shows what? Dead bodies dangle? It sucks to die? I haven't seen one photo of the couple when they were alive to show the real cost of their deaths...
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blue_ice
Oct 23, 2004, 3:45 AM
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We should all just remeber that these good people were our brothers in a sport that has inherent risks. We can suppose that weather reports were ignored or taken lightly, that risks were minimalized, that proper preparations weren't made. We can also criticize the media for what pictures they show or what they say about our fallen brothers. What we should do in respect for the Japanese team is know that they perished doing something they loved. Let them rest in peace.
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timstich
Oct 23, 2004, 3:52 AM
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There's a guy over on supertopo that thinks he might have met the couple before they got on El Cap. Said they were pretty nice folks and really psyched about doing a wall.
Don't sweat too much how the media handles these things. That part of it doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the big scheme of things.
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blue_ice
Oct 23, 2004, 4:04 AM
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Exactly, good people doing what they loved.
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powrslave
Oct 23, 2004, 7:35 PM
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Let me first start out by saying that this ordeal is indeed a sad one. It really does suck to see people succeeding so well one minute and then dead the next. All because of their drive to get off the couch. It really blows.
That aside, I can personally admit that there have been several times where I was lucky myself, so I am far from the soapbox on this one, but what we must do is constructively analyze what went wrong for this pair of climbers so that we can learn from whatever mistakes they made.
I have not yet determined if the weather forecast was crappy or if they had anyway of knowing even if it was, but even I know about the potential hazards of Yosemite walls in mid-late fall, and I live way out here in the Colorado Rockies.
Now, perhaps they were prepared or thought that they were. It could have been something simple like they misplaced their bivys or their portaledge broke. Someone mentioned something about the team only having a tarp. I am not sure what good a tarp would do anywhere except on top of El Cap after a long climb.
Might I ask the resident valley big wall climbers what types of specific gear they carry up the wall during sept-oct? I doubt that rain pants/jacket will do jack for several days in a storm of this caliber, but what would a modern portaledge with a rainfly be capable of? What about one of those cool Bibler I-tents that come modified for portaledge use? Would a shelter such as this suffice in such a storm with water running down the wall?
I am curious about this last situation because it echoes the past conundrum that Rowell and Harding faced back in the day. I expect if those two had modern equipment available back in the 60s that their situation would have been much more pleasant.
Anyhow, I don't mean to come off as a careless person, but I think that the internet is a good medium to quickly and effectively explain various viewpoints about this sort of thing. I mean, just think about it: 15 years ago nobody had access to this kind of information and nobody could so easily discuss climbing with such a diverse group of people. Reading about successes and failures and offering opinions should be considered a good thing, as long as it is kept constructive.
Regards,
PowrSlave
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iamthewallress
Oct 25, 2004, 2:51 PM
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Powerslave...
People rarely haul portaledges on the Nose, which has bad hauling and an abundance of natural ledges. It's not exceptional that the Japanese team would not have brought one. A tarp is somehting often touted as essential storm gear for folks heading up walls w/ natural ledges. You bivy sack is your basic bivy dryness layer, but places like Camp 6 where the Japanese team was stranded are full-on waterfalls. By pitching a tarp (see pmyches description in the Safety Tips thread in the Aid forum) will keep the waterfall from pounding directly on your sack and will keep you from laying directly in the pool. When my bf was rescued off of the Salathe 10 years ago after spending 3 days in a waterfall he did not have a tarp. He thinks that this simple item would have made an enourmous difference in the degree to which they suffered and the speed with which they started succumbing to the cold and wet.
John Dill's "Staying Alive in Yosemite" (you can find it on the internet) has a lot of the good points...Check the weather but always expect the worst, wear synthetic insulating layers, no cotton, have a rainsuit, have a waterproof bivy (and tarp), don't use a down bag, try to get out of the rain before you get wet.
I don't know what precautions the Japnese team did or did not take. Even with safey precautions, the top of the Nose is still a very dangerous place to be exposed in a storm. We shouldn't think that just because we have our bivy bag and rain suit that we've made it safe.
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dingus
Oct 25, 2004, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: I am curious about this last situation because it echoes the past conundrum that Rowell and Harding faced back in the day. I expect if those two had modern equipment available back in the 60s that their situation would have been much more pleasant.
Conundrum? Rowell wanted to come down as the storm approached and Harding was too stubborn to listen. Once the rain started it was too late. And in his day, Harding had the best gear available. He made it himself.
John Middendorf and company were rescued from the same wall in very similar circumstances, a wet winter storm, using modern gear, trying to sneak one more wall in before winter.
The conventional wisdom says there is no modern gear up to the task if you find yourself in the wrong place, such as under a water fall. Since climbers and water tend to seek the same lines, you do the math.
I'll be blunt... the attitude of 'tell me what gear to take so I can risk wall climbing in October' might not be the best thing for non-expert wall climbers to consider. I would suggest that people like me don't belong on walls in October. I certainly want no part of a Sierra winter storm on a rock wall. I'd much rather be skiing. I would suggest the same for most of you too. Go skiing.
The thing I admire most about good wall climbers is that they possess an attribute I have trouble mustering for multiday adventures... commitment. The good ones have it in spades, truckloads of it. It's their schtick. That's what you need to be a good wall climber, more than any other attribute really. The ability to commit to a route and stay with it. Ironically, that very same power can be turned on a climber, when the world turns to shit. Is that the person you want to take your lead from?
Make no mistake... the bulk of the parties affected by this storm would be (are) considered good wall climbers with the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing. They are out of my league in other words. That single fact alone ought to give some budding wall climbers some additional perspective. Some of these people would go back up there again (read... WILL go back up there again, maybe even this fall), given the exact same set of starting conditions. NOW THAT IS COMMITMENT.
DMT
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sspssp
Oct 25, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: Make no mistake... the bulk of the parties affected by this storm would be (are) considered good wall climbers with the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing. They are out of my league in other words. That single fact alone ought to give some budding wall climbers some additional perspective. Some of these people would go back up there again (read... WILL go back up there again, maybe even this fall), given the exact same set of starting conditions. NOW THAT IS COMMITMENT.
I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
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dingus
Oct 25, 2004, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
I don't know and don't want to know. I am content to be a big wall weather non-wanabe.
I can guess HOW NOT TO go about it though...
Don't go out and drop a couplaK on "storm gear" recommended by others and then head up on an overhanging wall route mid Oct with a storm barreling down on ya to test that gear.
The folks who ride out storms and then KEEP CLIMBING are not normal. They are not normal people and more importantly to us on this forum, they are not normal climbers either.
Normal folks who want to be like them, to be THAT hard, will need to check their normalcy at the NPS gate on their way in the park.
I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone. But good wall climbers are not a dime a dozen. They are a select breed if you will, and most of US do not belong up there with them.
True.
DMT
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iamthewallress
Oct 25, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: I don't disagree, but how does one ever develop the requisite skills to pull off storm climbing, unless you throw yourself at big walls and eventually get hit by a storm?
I think that people who aim to actually climb El Cap in a storm are few an far between. It seems to me that most of craziest winter wallers out there are more aiming to just be able to hunker down and survive a storm and then top out w/o rescue after its over in the event that a big one comes along while they are on the wall. Like in mountaineering, most winter climbers aim for the window of good weather to make their summit bids...Usually they're not heading up when they expect it to be raging.
FWIW, I go to Yosemite year round and I just don't see legions of bad asses heading up El Cap in the winter. Sometimes you see one day parties on the Nose when there's been enough of a warm spell to melt the ice off the summit pitches, and sometimes there are parties on a couple of routes known to be pretty 'storm protected'. Sadly, a guy died fixing ropes on one of these 'good winter routes' last year when the storm blew in and he couldn't return to his pack at the base fast enough. So, even getting on one of the 'good winter routes' in stormy weather takes a few sides off the dice that you're using for your crap shoot.
Climbing in colder 'stormy' climes is a different beast (and one that I know zilch about first hand) because it's more snowy/frozen and less wet.
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ricardol
Oct 25, 2004, 5:00 PM
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how many big wall climbers are 100% sure that their storm gear is up to snuff .. until its been tested in a real storm ..
.. you take what you think will save your butt ... and strike a balance for weight and bulk ..
.. i echo DMT's post, and hope to never have to test my gear on a full-blown storm ona cliff-face ..
.. also .. what most people probably dont realize is how quickly a storm will inmobilize you .. i was once on the fixed lines up to the heart (just out having fun) when it starter raining... then sleeting .. i was up there without a jacket and no storm gear .. it took only a few minutes to get REALLY cold .. --
-- ricardo
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lambone
Oct 25, 2004, 5:05 PM
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While the climbers were suffering at the top of El Cap during last weeks storm, we decided to go climb the first pitch of the North America Wall just to get a taste of it all. Being from Seattle and Vancouver...aiding in the rain was nothing new to us.
Aiding in the rain is one thing, aiding in a WATERCOURSE is a full on nightmare. I have a whole new respect for the amount of water that pours off El Cap. Get stuck in the wrong place and you could easily die.
I heard the Japanesse climbers last screams from the meadow...very sad.
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kit
Oct 25, 2004, 5:20 PM
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i just got back into civilization from the valley and was horrified to hear about all of this. just a week ago i was sitting around a camp fire with them, and was really worried on my way out last tuesday that they hadn't come down yet.
very sad. very sad indeed.
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