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monkey_toes
Nov 28, 2004, 7:52 PM
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I went with my son to the gym today for some bouldering and top roping. Anyway afer being his belay slave for a while - we changed spots and he belayed me. I way in at 185 at the moment while my son weighs in at around 130 (also had him anchored to the floor as well). Anyway I didn't manage to make it to the top (I tweaked my back a while back and its still bothering me) during the rapell down it didn't feel as safe as normal.
Anyway - the question is should I invest in a Gri-gri ? Just wondering if this would be a safer option than the atc.
thanks
Jeff
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killclimbz
Nov 28, 2004, 7:58 PM
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How old is your son? I don't think you are giving up an unreasonable amount of weight between you two. I think it boils down to the fact if you trust your son or do you think a little extra backup would be appropriate?
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 28, 2004, 8:12 PM
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ATC vs Grigri
As far as the unknown stranger, who may be an idiot. A grigri might offer some increase in safety.
In term of lowering a heavy climber? They are about the same. Accident patterns seem to suggest that use of the grigri results in more accidents instead of less. (with a skilled belayer, a grigri is safer)
If the weight is the main problem, consider using the xp-atc or jaws, something with an increased friction mode.
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ctardi
Nov 28, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Body Belay :wink:
An ATC is fine, but with more weight, he should use the small end of the 'biner for more friction. A gri-gri will make it a lot harder to lower you for him, and untill he is well used to it, there will be a higher chance of him droppin you while getting the feel for the cam with lots of weight.
sorry, cant figure out how to word that better....
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monkey_toes
Nov 28, 2004, 9:11 PM
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Thanks everyone - my son is 18, normally I have no problems with him belaying me - but today he had more of a problem arresting me on the way back down - I like the idea of perhaps using jaws or the XP - seems to be a better compromise between a standard ATC and a gri-gri or cinch. Just looking for more security/backup while we are still gaining experience.
Jeff
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robdotcalm
Nov 28, 2004, 9:24 PM
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I'd regard it as a form of child abuse, if I taught my grandchildren to belay with a Gri-Gri.
vale, robertusPunctumPacificus
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lizard0fthetrail
Nov 28, 2004, 9:26 PM
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I would definitely go for the ATC, but like mentioned prior, one with an increased friction mode. Your son will become a better and stronger belayer if he's belaying someone heavier than him ona regular basis. Also, he won't have the often false sense of security an auto locking belay device provides.
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j_ung
Nov 28, 2004, 10:09 PM
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If you already own a standard ATC, just add a second biner right next to the first. This will create a little more friction for him.
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climbingbums
Nov 28, 2004, 11:06 PM
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im younger than your son, and i do a lot of trad, sport, multi-pitch etc. with a partner that weighs considerably more than myself, probably 70 pounds. The only problem i have is that i get launched about 10 feet if he falls and we meet face to face. but i also have a gri-gri, and it sits in my closet. i used it once to jug a route, but thats most of the action its gotten. i guess it depends on wether or not you are gunna spend any time on real rock, or going to lead. if you answered yes to either of those questions get the atc. if you answered no, get the gri-gri. or just wait and see it you need it. best of luck either way.
Bobby
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phaedrus
Nov 29, 2004, 5:22 AM
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He should at least know how to use an ATC since they are pretty much the standard in belay devices, but for an autolocker, I'll go with the Hewbolt every time, and a Hewbolt is priced about the same as a Gri-gri. I did a review of both the Hewbolt Single and the Hewbolt Double if you are looking for more info.
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mendou
Nov 29, 2004, 5:41 AM
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i think either are good for your son... if he was my son i think that i would teach to use both and then i would let him decide for himself.
But it would be great that he knows how to use both :wink:
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climbinginchico
Nov 29, 2004, 7:11 AM
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Get an ATC-XP and load it in high friction mode. If he is anchored to the ground, you don't have to worry about the weight differential. If he can't hold you while lowering? Add a second biner to the device, in high friction mode. Still having trouble? Get a different belayer, or it might just be that you don't trust him...
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changling
Nov 29, 2004, 7:30 AM
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Working in a gym, I spend a lot of time belaying people on top-rope. Now, I weigh about 125-130 lbs and I've belayed people that tell me that they weigh up to 180-something or even more. I don't really have a problem belaying people of that weight even though the rope only goes over the top beam once (no wraps) so there is very little friction in the system.
I try to really lower my body low to the ground when I expect the person will fall and when I lower them. I find that the lower I keep my body, the less likely I am to lift off the ground, but since your gym has anchors on the ground, then lifting off shouldn't be an issue.
Now, I belay with the jaws, and I've tried using the gri-gri. After using the two I prefer the jaws, but I also have a lot more experience with the jaws rather than the gri-gri so that might affect my choice of device.
I'm not sure how your son was taught how to lower but I see a lot of people lowering the climber with only one hand on the brake end and if that is how he does it, then that might be the issue. With the gri-gri, you have no choice but to only have one hand on the brake while the other is holding the lever. I really don't like that, especially when lowering a much heavier climber because I feel there is a loss of control that way. When I use the jaws I keep both hands on the brake end and that way I have a lot more control when lowering.
If he does have both hands on the brake when lowering and it still isn't well controlled then get a device with more friction like the others have recommended. Personally, I would stay away from the gri-gri for the time being.
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climballnight
Nov 29, 2004, 7:41 AM
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ATC or similar belay device definitely!
One more thing about the Gri-Gri is that when lowering you should use your right hand as a brake similar to how you would for an ATC, all the while holding the lever open. The camming action is there to catch the climber if the belayer screws up, or to free up the belayer's hands, but it'll probably be even more sketchy than your previous ATC experience if your son were to try using only the lever to lower you with.
Your son should be fine belaying you. I'm 190 and my climbing partner weighs less than your son.... sure she grips and complains if I hang on the rope a lot, but she holds me no problem, with a regular ATC or with a Reverso.
He should learn to use the ATC and get solid with it. It's a fundamental part of climbing, like alphabets soup for before you go outdoors.
- bret
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climballnight
Nov 29, 2004, 7:47 AM
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Oh, and what she said....
In reply to: ...with the gri-gri, you have no choice but to only have one hand on the brake while the other is holding the lever... |
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daisuke
Nov 29, 2004, 10:55 AM
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unless there is a huge weight difference, like around 80 pounds the belay device isn't going to make much of a difference, especially if you're toproping, I preffer the gri-gri when I'm belaying someone who is going to take their sweet time on a climb, or on easy climbs where there isn't going to be a big whipper, I'll never belay someone on lead with a gri-gri tho, it just isn't smooth enough to react to spur of the moment situations like a lead fall with a lot of rope out, best not to trust moving parts that are made to get stuck in a situation like that!
weigh the options (and the money) the gri-gri is a sport climber's device, the ATC is more versatile
D
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perozee
Nov 29, 2004, 11:07 AM
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In reply to: Oh, and what she said.... changling wrote: ...with the gri-gri, you have no choice but to only have one hand on the brake while the other is holding the lever...
^ ^^^^^^^^ ^
What they said
and what J-ung said:
In reply to: If you already own a standard ATC, just add a second biner right next to the first. This will create a little more friction for him. |
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cantbuymefriends
Nov 29, 2004, 12:43 PM
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In reply to: I went with my son to the gym today for some bouldering and top roping. Anyway afer being his belay slave for a while - we changed spots and he belayed me. I way in at 185 at the moment while my son weighs in at around 130 (also had him anchored to the floor as well). Anyway I didn't manage to make it to the top (I tweaked my back a while back and its still bothering me) during the rapell down it didn't feel as safe as normal. Anyway - the question is should I invest in a Gri-gri ? Just wondering if this would be a safer option than the atc. thanks Jeff
Question: When you are rapelling, in what way does the weight of the belayer influence the friction in the belay device...? (Provided, of course, that he is anchored, which he was in this case.)
Of course, if he has trouble holding you, get a device with higher friction. But that has nothing to do with his weight, or the weight difference between the 2 of you. Right?
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overlord
Nov 29, 2004, 1:41 PM
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if hes a beginner go with the ATC. thatll teach him how to belay properly and pay attention to the leader.
if ehs experienced and youre worried that hell get slammed into the wall and release the rope, buy a grigri. in this case it increases your security.
or you can just anchor him.
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allan_thomson
Dec 3, 2004, 6:38 PM
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Depends on the style as well. If you're climbing Trad, then a gri gri will put more force on the gear, so is best avoided. Sports is more suited to Gri Gri use. I don't do sports, and so have no gri gri experience as such, but I have heard of inexperienced people having problems using them. So personally if I had a choice (which I haven't anyway) I'd still get a newbie to use an ATC. They're much easier to use, and it teaches the user to be more attentive to the climber.
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slabmaster
Dec 3, 2004, 6:53 PM
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... another little 'trick' for all you heavyweights out there with tiny belayers...
Do a little dosy-doh before you start up. That is twist the two rope ends around eachother once (or twice if there is a serious difference in weight). The twist will appear up at the anchor.
I was just belayed last night by a -100 pounder and I'm a hefty 160 (well, 170 if I'm honest, which I'm not).
-cow
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i_climb
Dec 3, 2004, 7:25 PM
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Not really a good idea:
In reply to: ... another little 'trick' for all you heavyweights out there with tiny belayers... Do a little dosy-doh before you start up. That is twist the two rope ends around eachother once (or twice if there is a serious difference in weight). The twist will appear up at the anchor. I was just belayed last night by a -100 pounder and I'm a hefty 160 (well, 170 if I'm honest, which I'm not). -cow
I don't think you want the rope rubbing against itself like that all of the time.
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allan_thomson
Dec 3, 2004, 7:29 PM
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[quote="ctardi"]Body Belay :wink:
quote]
LOL. I think climbing wall staff would have a fit at this one!!!!
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the_antoon
Dec 3, 2004, 7:30 PM
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ATC...no doubt
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ctardi
Dec 4, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Body Belay :wink: LOL. I think climbing wall staff would have a fit at this one!!!!
yup, hehe. After closing one day, we gave it a try, took the biggest guy, and the smallest (me) had me climb up 10 feet on a body belay...worked fine, but lots of pain for the belayer, hehe.
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drfelatio
Dec 6, 2004, 11:18 PM
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ATC definately. Its a simple, effective, and versatile device. If you need the extra friction, by all means get the ATC-XP or a Jaws. If you're worried he's going to drop you by all means get a different belayer. You don't want to climb and constantly think about whether or not you trust the person on the other end of the rope.
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p_grandbois
Dec 6, 2004, 11:22 PM
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Depends on his technique, ATC XP has the same lowering ease as a gri gri but a gri gri is safer on the top rope. I myself don't really use my gri gri for anything because I am always leading and prefer a good old ATC cause of the feel. If you are comfortable with his skills I say give him an ATC but if you are questioning it at all give him a gri gri and make sure he knows how to lower you.
Cheers
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jpdreamer
Dec 7, 2004, 12:35 AM
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Several people have posted that the Gri-Gri is a sport climber device. I havn't used one myself, but I recall hearing from some aid climbers who prefer to use the Gri-Gri while aid belaying since progress is so much slower.
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melodicllama
Dec 7, 2004, 12:53 AM
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i agree with the numerous people that have mentioned the ATC-XP. it greatly increases friction. it is my device of choice for belaying the more hefty of our climbing community :wink:
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wingnut
Dec 19, 2004, 6:40 PM
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ATC-XP definetly. Jaws would work good too.
____________________
I refuse to accept your reality, and substitute my own.
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gunksgoer
Dec 19, 2004, 7:12 PM
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id say the ATC-XP, as it provides good friction while still being basic. One device i would advise u to stay away from is the reverso. Although it is probably my favorite device to use for trad, i wouldnt reccomend it for just regular toproping, as its friction seems to be slightly less then the regular atc, nothing really to worry about tho, its just not what u would want.
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napoleon_in_rags
Dec 19, 2004, 7:33 PM
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ATC. You should learn on an ATC and later use a Gri-Gri. Go for the hard way before you go for the easy way.
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saskrock
Dec 19, 2004, 8:15 PM
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Shouldn't matter especially at that age, more of a trust issue.
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kman
Dec 19, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: ...who may be an idiot. A grigri might offer some increase in safety
Sorry...but a gri-gri does not offer an increase in safety when it comes to idiots belaying.
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omeier
Dec 19, 2004, 10:22 PM
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I would say get the atc. I bought a gri-gri a while back for some lazy friends of mine who i was teaching to climb;however i rarely use it. sometimes i get it out for belaying a leader but i usually forget i have it or leave it at home. Atleast for me it seems to make me a lazy belayer, i just put tension on the line and wait for it to go slack, rather than watching the climber. with an atc or similar device its easier to feed and pull out slack fast and it can force you to be semi attentive.
hope that helps
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grimpiperx
Dec 19, 2004, 10:41 PM
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In reply to: ATC. You should learn on an ATC and later use a Gri-Gri. Go for the hard way before you go for the easy way.
I agree completely. Use the ATC until he can belay in his sleep, then he can be lazy and use a Gri-Gri.
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moondog
Dec 24, 2004, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: Anyway - the question is should I invest in a Gri-gri ? Just wondering if this would be a safer option than the atc.
One should think of the Grigri as a laborsaving device instead of a security upgrade as it's not inherently safer than any other device. The Grigri makes belay duty easier by reducing the effort required to catch and hold falls, a real advantage in sport climbing.
Some gyms probably use the Grigri thinking it provides a "back up" of sorts for inexperienced belayers. Determining the validty of such thinking is difficult as meaningful statistics are sadly lacking. Durability/value is another factor in gym use as the primary friction elements are made of stainless steel and will thus far outlast any traditional device/biner setup.
Using the Grigri properly (unsupervised) requires knowledge and experience that is best gained with traditional techniques and devices. Better to learn how to belay and develop the proper reflexes before trying a more complex device such as the Grigri.
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kreate
Dec 24, 2004, 9:15 PM
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personaly i would buy him an atc. reason being> i think one is better off learning to proficently use the most basic of equipment first. the whole walik before crawl thing. when learning to lead trad my mentor only let me use hexes and stopers. i lead for a year before placing my first friend and benifited greatly. aside from my rantings i think that you have more controll of the rope (more feel if you will) with an atc. its also easier to lead belay with an atc. but if your worried about catching get a grigri.
either way
-later days
kreate
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chalkfree
Dec 27, 2004, 5:49 AM
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From another climbing wall staff person.... Who weighs 120 soaking wet, and who's friends are massive.
The rules at most walls are different, but I'd put a half twist in the line, use the floor anchor, and definitely an ATC or equivilant, (I prefer the reverso, but my preferance is to be familiar with somethings it does in lead climbing). The ideas about increasing friction are all pretty solid, double biners is cool, the half twist is fine for the rope.
As far as the Grigri goes I'd never let someone I was the least bit worried about use one, it's just too iffy. I'd much rather see a beginer struggle to set up a belay with an atc, and have a third back them up then see a newbie with a grigri. The potential panic reaction is just too pervasive.
Maybe a munter hitch if your wall staff will have it, I know I'd let it go after some observation. That'll definitely get you some added friction. Just don't have too much.
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bouldrinsoill
Dec 27, 2004, 7:48 AM
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He's 18 for Christs sake!!! Don't insult him by making him belay with a GriGri....
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kathy
Dec 27, 2004, 8:43 AM
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In reply to: If you already own a standard ATC, just add a second biner right next to the first. This will create a little more friction for him.
do you mean when clipping the ATC into the belay loop?
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kbanks
Feb 4, 2005, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: Shouldn't matter especially at that age, more of a trust issue.
kbanks
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speedyz2
Feb 4, 2005, 3:16 AM
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I'm going to have to say the Reverso...seems tow ork pretty well. used like and atc but can still have the effect of a Gri-Gri with more friction, etc.
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