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skinner
Mar 20, 2005, 1:14 AM
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I was wondering if anyone has an preferences when it comes to pulleys for hauling systems? Swivel, non-swivel, brand names, size, experiences good/bad. Interested in hearing any comments.
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tarsier
Mar 20, 2005, 7:26 PM
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Do NOT get anything with a small (<25mm) wheel diameter; it makes a big difference in the force needed to haul.
If you're going to be doing a lot of hauling, the Petzl Wall Hauler is pretty swank, though a regular pulley and inverted ascender work just fine (and weighs less). Yates makes a 30mm pulley that's the same cost and weight as Black Diamond's 25mm pulley. I've been real happy with my BD pulley, but I'd probably go with the Yates. Save your money on the Wall Hauler until you need to set up a compound system; then you'll need two pulleys anyway.
Are you talking about a haulbag swivel? The Petzl swivel is pretty heavy. I've used one before and thought it probably wasn't worth the weight and money. Of course, the more off-vertical and traversing your routes are, the more valuable the swivel will be.
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stymingersfink
Mar 20, 2005, 8:44 PM
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Petzl Pro-traxion self-jamming pulley
Clip it to your anchor, swing-away the side plate and set your rope. Clip a biner to the bottom and haul away.
Heavier than the wall-hauler, but so worth it.
Sty
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skinner
Mar 21, 2005, 2:20 AM
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In reply to: the Petzl Wall Hauler is pretty swank
In reply to: Petzl Pro-traxion self-jamming pulley
Thank you very much for the information.
I never knew that a "Petzl Wall Hauler" existed before this. I do already have a Petzl Pro-traxion and was wondering if anyone had a pulley preference, and/or experiences good or bad with different brands of pulleys for a compound system hauling system.
In reply to: Are you talking about a haulbag swivel?
http://www.netspy.net/.../fx/petzl-swivel.jpg
This puppy is not cheap.. $67.00 USD
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epic_ed
Mar 21, 2005, 4:07 AM
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Petzl bought the design for the Wall Hauler from a company called "Rock Exoctica" a few years back. You can find some used models under either name but they're they same device. Many wall climbers have made do with that compound pulley for a number of years, but it has some draw backs. Mainly, the strength rating is rather wak at 200lbs. Many climbers will tell you they have by far exceeded that rating, but it doesn't inspire much confidence.
A good alternative, and probably the most popular compound pulley on the market, is the Petzl ProTraxion. The strength rating is better, although still not enough to rate it for "live loads" in a rescue situation. It has a few quirks, but overall it's a service-able device. On a couple of occasions, it has proven more particular about the hauling angle than I expect and didn't automaticly clamp down on the rope. For anything but grade VI adventures, it's your best option on the market.
If you really want to go with a bomber device that will make hauling heavy loads seem a lot easier, the Kong Block Roll is the way to go.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...yImages/PIC00345.JPG
Problem is, good luck finding one. They don't sell them in the US and the only reliable source I've found is barrabes.com in Spain. They are a good company and they will get one to you, but they ain't cheap. Mine was about $140 with shipping.
Ed
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epic_ed
Mar 21, 2005, 4:12 AM
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BTW -- the Petzl Swivel is the only one I know of and it's worth it's weight in gold. This comes more into play on the multi-day grade V and VI stuff, especially if you're hauling two bags. I wouldn't prioritize it as an item you need to have on your first couple of walls, but it will be on your "wish" list.
Ed
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gunked
Mar 21, 2005, 7:06 AM
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BD and Petzl both make good pulleys for hauling systems.
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skinner
Mar 21, 2005, 3:52 PM
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Really appreciate the information.
Ahh.. so that's the elusive Kong Block Roll ed was looking for.
I really don't mind spending money on gear if it's "the answer" to a specific function like hauling. It's with something as seemingly simplistic as a swivel that they are asking the equivalent of half a dozen biners for, that my wallet snaps shut.
What do you think of these?
http://www.netspy.net/...ar/fx/dmm-swivel.jpg
DMM Wales Sidewinder Swivel Eye Carabiner
Description: A unique product from DMM Wales. This carabiner is constructed from forged aluminum. It
features a positive locking gate with a 3/4" opening. The swivel eye is equipped with a load indicator.
Should the user suffer a fall the indicator visually alerts the user. A great way to read the history of the
carabiner.Tensile Strength: 5500 pounds or 25kN. Meets the following: CE EN 362.
Size: Length: 7-3/4", Width: 2-3/4", Weight: 220 grams
Cost: $39.00 CDN
Cost: $31.00 USD
It basically only weighs 9 grams more then the Petzl swivel with an oval locker, but is $45 cheaper.
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skinner
Mar 21, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: BD and Petzl both make good pulleys for hauling systems.
I went for the bigger wheel and grabbed a couple of these.
http://www.netspy.net/.../fx/BD-pulley_sm.jpg
Black Diamond’s pulley is strong and light—it weighs only 2.7 ounces and works well for big wall hauling and emergency situations requiring rescue. The frame is made of tough heat-treated 2024-T3 aluminum alloy. The nylon wheel rotates on a self-lubricating, oil-filled bronze bearing, providing smooth action and durability.
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epic_ed
Mar 21, 2005, 5:17 PM
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Huh -- I've never seen that DMM swivel before. Looks nice. Fuck it -- get one and let us know what you think. :mrgreen:
Ed
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skinner
Mar 21, 2005, 8:05 PM
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:wink: Done
Just put my order in!
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moof
Mar 22, 2005, 7:50 AM
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In reply to: A good alternative, and probably the most popular compound pulley on the market, is the Petzl ProTraxion. The strength rating is better, although still not enough to rate it for "live loads" in a rescue situation. It has a few quirks, but overall it's a service-able device. On a couple of occasions, it has proven more particular about the hauling angle than I expect and didn't automaticly clamp down on the rope. For anything but grade VI adventures, it's your best option on the market. Ed
Are you sure it's not man rated? I remember pretty distinctly when I bought mine that it was rated for live loads to 2.5 kn (1 dude plus litter and such).
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anykineclimb
Mar 22, 2005, 10:37 AM
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In reply to: Petzl bought the design for the Wall Hauler from a company called "Rock Exoctica" a few years back. You can find some used models under either name but they're they same device. Many wall climbers have made do with that compound pulley for a number of years, but it has some draw backs. Mainly, the strength rating is rather wak at 200lbs. Many climbers will tell you they have by far exceeded that rating, but it doesn't inspire much confidence. Ed
Peztl didn't just buy the design. The bought the WHOLE COMPANY.
From the Wren industries site:
" Rock Exotica already produced the Soloist and Solo-Aid, two popular solo-belay devices, and the Silent Partner would have rounded out the lineup. In 1997, however, Petzl absorbed Rock Exotica and wanted nothing to do with solo-belay gizmos. Thompson organized another company, Wren Industries, which now produces all three solo devices."
The Swivel and the Paw rigging plate also came from rock exotica.
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ricardol
Mar 22, 2005, 11:06 PM
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ed:
I'm going to chime in with the other folks who are questioning your opinions on the petzl pro-traxion ..
I've done 2 grade VI solo's with mine and its worked just fine.. only once did it give me problems engaging, and it was basically user error. (the angle it made with the rock face and the haul line was not conducive to keeping the line on the pulley)
The Pro-traxion IS rated for live loads .. i made sure of it before i rapped off of it.
.. ed, its great that you give alot of info to people asking questions, but i dont think you have the experience to really qualify what works and what doesn't.
=====================
My experience with the pro-traxion has been good -- easy to use, etc .. but i have had 1 problem with it -- the casing has somehow bent during my last ascent, and now its a BITCH to open and close ... so i need to send it back to Petzl for replacement.
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zetedog
Mar 23, 2005, 2:19 AM
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On the wall hauler (if you are considering on of JM's ebay units):
The cam is what is rated to 200lbs, the pulley is rated much higher. According to a pretzel service rep email I sent a couple of years back, the wren made units pulley was rated around 4Kn (2 x 2Kn) and the petzl one was closer to 8Kn (2 x 4kn). Petzl used the sheve and pulley from their "rescue" model, and the stamped metal was plenty stong. The rep stated that the cam on any "clamping" unit should fail at a load much lower than what the pulley is rated, barring any deformation or incident.
The Wall Hauler will deform when the load approaches 100lbs. Not fail, but flatten the metal enough to wig you out when there is air under your feet. There are a lot of spook stories regarding the Wall Hauler, and I think that most are tied to the deforming. This was debated a couple of years back on Supertaco's and I don't recall anyone producing an actual failure story, even third hand. There were a couple to the tune of I forgot/dropped/lost the cam pin, which can be a real problem. I swapped the dinky nylon on mine out for some cable a friend swagged for me.
I couldn't imagine hauling a single 200# load, so the rating has not concerned me much. Then again, I am also too much of a pansey to do any real space hauling drops either.
YMMV
Todd
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epic_ed
Mar 23, 2005, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: .. ed, its great that you give alot of info to people asking questions, but i dont think you have the experience to really qualify what works and what doesn't.
I haven't seen the top of many routes, buddy, but you have no idea how much milage I've logged using my gear. I make damn sure I don't comment on anything I don't have experiencewith or gear I haven't used extensively. I have hauled a bunch with the ProTraxion. Petzl's recommended maximum working load when the cam is engaged is 2.5kN. I don't know what SAR teams consider a safe working load, but I know our county SAR team (CAMRA) won't use them for live loads. I'm sure worse has been done in actual climbing situations (hell, they hauled Chongo with a Wall Hauler -- backed up), but most people wouldn't consider them appropriate for live loads.
As for user error -- yeah, you're damn right. I've screwed up the orientation of the hauling angle many times. Three times I've experienced the cam failing to engage. Twice, it was my fault due to some weird way I had it set up. The third time was inexplicable, and after looking back with a few more years of experience under my belt, I still don't know why it wouldn't engage. I still use it -- very happily in most cases -- but the ProTraxion is much less forgiving of "user error" in hauling angles than I would have expected.
So, when do I have enough experience to qualify to make comments, Ricardo? How many ticks do you want to see on my resume before you'll grant me permission to tell you about aid climbing from my experiences?
Ed
- And, FYI, I also own a Fish Haul Bag (other thread).
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stymingersfink
Mar 23, 2005, 5:26 AM
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SMC is the other option in swivels. PMI has a pic of one here:
http://pmirope.secure-shops5.com/product.asp?itemid=784&catid=59
they're no cheaper than the petzl swivel, at least when I bought mine. With the eruo:dollar conversion going the way it has this may change soon.
Like the BD pulley for the weight, but the plastic sheave has given me pause. I suppose when it comes time to pick up another pulley it will be Petzl's rescue pulley, unless by then weight is a bigger concern. to me.
Having used both the wall hauler and the pro-traxion, i can only say that I was never as nervous about space-hauling with the latter as i was with the former. The traxion was easier to set-up and utilize as well.
Sty
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moof
Mar 23, 2005, 8:46 AM
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Ed,
Working loads are safe loads, with appropriate derating already applied. Meaning 2.5 kN already has safety factors built in, and that live loads to 2.5 kN are OK, the break strength is noticeably higher. For example my 7mm zip line claims a working load of 160 lbs, and a break strength of about 2000 lbs. Usually it is around 10% of rated for ropes.
As for SAR stuff, those guys derate the crap out of everything, usually using 3% for the workling load limit. Most of your climbing gear would not be acceptable for even the simplest rescue applications, not just your traxion.
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epic_ed
Mar 23, 2005, 3:12 PM
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I'm well aware that the recommended working load is significantly less than the theoretical breaking load. In the case of the ProTraxion, they indicate that around 5kN you can expect the camming device to fail (not the pulley, itself). My point -- I've used the ProTraxion extensively. I like it for most hauling situations; in fact it's my prefered device on anything less than the multi-day-200lb-load routes. It is less forgiving of off camber hauling angles than I would like. Trusting it to not fail when rappeling on it with the cam engaged is a personal decision, but everyone should know and understand what the recommended working load is for the ProTraxion in that application. For me, at 215+ lbs, it's not a margin of saftey I'd like to rely on. YMMV.
Ed
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megableem
Mar 23, 2005, 6:55 PM
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skinner
Mar 23, 2005, 7:43 PM
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While I have all you experienced Wall-Haulers here.. I may as well take advantage of it and ask your opinions on PTPP's hauling diagram.
http://www.netspy.net/...technique/spacer.gifhttp://www.netspy.net/...Big-Wall-Rigging.gif
Questions:
(1) "7mm cord TIED" - Why not just on a locker? seems to me the 7mm cord would fair far better on a biner then the edges of a pulley housing
(2) "4 inch frost draw" - again, why not just another locker? 1/2" in length difference maybe
(3) "Easily adjustable clove hitch + Big Fricken Knot" Why not have a prussik on the lifting ratchet cord connected to your harness biner, instead of relying on a BFK ?
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brianinslc
Mar 23, 2005, 8:10 PM
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Never understood why you'd use the PTPP method in that diagram, instead of the standard Yosemite 3:1. Or, use a pulley clipped to the bottom of the protraxion, etc. Seems less fussy than rigging a separate hauling system off a cordelette.
-Brian in SLC
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megableem
Mar 23, 2005, 8:33 PM
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