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bvb
May 18, 2005, 12:58 AM
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i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers.
30 years ago, nobody would have paid any attention to this. but now, it's all about the "community's" reaction and the "bad image" this kind of "irresponsible" behavior gives to the "sport". gimme a fucking break.
this kid has a pair of obviously eccentric and flaky parents who love her. half the kids on the planet should be so lucky.
any of you ever volunteered your free time to work with parentless disabled kids? anybody ever give up a climbing day to organize events for disadvantaged children in poor neighboorhoods? show of hands, please.
hmmm.
get over yourselves, you hand-wringing dilettantes. if you are so genuinely concerned for the well-being of children in this world, i can provide you with a long list of activities you can undertake that will be far more effective and have a much more positive impact on children at risk than this intermiable parsing of a couple of fucking photos of some n00bs hiking choss in california.
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ambler
May 18, 2005, 1:51 AM
Post #102 of 315
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In reply to: Scolding Needed--To Save a Life
But calling down the law? That's hasty, dangerous and excessive in whole new ways.
In reply to: i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers. |
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socalclimber
May 18, 2005, 1:56 AM
Post #103 of 315
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While I may not approve of what I saw and read, and find it scary, I don't think calling CPS is appropriate or the answer.
I guess what's done is done.
Robert
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loadstar
May 18, 2005, 2:05 AM
Post #104 of 315
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Mr. Storm
Don’t let these spineless so called climbing fools get to you as they are as ignorant as the first day they were born. Their tunnel vision as of what climbing and life and death is will never be clear to them.
They are desperately seeking the truth which mysteriously is always right in front of them.
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momar
May 18, 2005, 2:12 AM
Post #105 of 315
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When I was a kid my older brother and dad loved fishing and I couldnt stand it. So my dad would tell me just to go climb those rocks over there so I didnt bother him. Going back and seeing those rocks in person they were low to mid 5's all over 20 feet. So was I being abused?
Just think back about all the dumb shit you did when you were a kid. That's when you learn what things are and aren't a good idea. Adn letting you kids solo 4th class is not a big deal.
And storm even said that she had PRACTICED it on top rope. I imagine isn't to hard to get a scramble dialed after several tries.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 2:43 AM
Post #106 of 315
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In reply to: So, nebo is this the outcome you were after?
I'm not sure if the outcome I was after will be achieved. There are a lot of superfluous comments that, while interesting, are also at times disturbing. I am right now mostly feeling sorrow about the whole thing.
I'm at a place that is familiar to me, a particular juncture of confusion. I started on the route with clear intentions, perhaps started overanalysing after a few moves in, and now am not sure if I was ever on-route. Keep climbing, or bail? And all this foul weather sure blew in fast, didn't it?
Thanks for asking.
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 2:50 AM
Post #107 of 315
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suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this shit you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light.
meanwhile, you fuck with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops.
i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand.
stay out of flagstaff, bitch. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face.
asshole.
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loadstar
May 18, 2005, 2:57 AM
Post #108 of 315
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Ditto
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hasbeen
May 18, 2005, 3:18 AM
Post #109 of 315
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The man may lack a bit of eloquence, but I'm backing up BVB all the way on this one. What the hell is the matter with you people? Who are you to judge the way someone else lives their life? I don't know about this Storm character but, hell, when I was his kid's age I was doing stuff on my own that was a hell of a lot more dangerous than that. Are your kids safer drinking coke all day in front of a computer screen on their way to type II diabetes by the age of 11 and cosmetic surgery before they're out of college?
And Steve Irwin's kid is a million times safer with him and a couple of crocs than most kids in LA are driving with their stressed-out, Prozac-quaffing, cell-glued-to-their-ear, one-hand-on-the SUV parents.
This country has gone insane. Get a friggin' life.
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mack_north
May 18, 2005, 3:28 AM
Post #110 of 315
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In reply to: i just wrote storm an e-mail telling him he should ignore all of you hand-wringing wankers. 30 years ago, nobody would have paid any attention to this. but now, it's all about the "community's" reaction and the "bad image" this kind of "irresponsible" behavior gives to the "sport". gimme a f---ing break. this kid has a pair of obviously eccentric and flaky parents who love her. half the kids on the planet should be so lucky. any of you ever volunteered your free time to work with parentless disabled kids? anybody ever give up a climbing day to organize events for disadvantaged children in poor neighboorhoods? show of hands, please. hmmm. get over yourselves, you hand-wringing dilettantes. if you are so genuinely concerned for the well-being of children in this world, i can provide you with a long list of activities you can undertake that will be far more effective and have a much more positive impact on children at risk than this intermiable parsing of a couple of f---ing photos of some n00bs hiking choss in california.
So good I wanted to see it posted again. How did our country get from the founding fathers to these "hand-wringing wankers" in a mere 200 years? I salute you, sir!
Get off the damn shed!!
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crotch
May 18, 2005, 3:32 AM
Post #111 of 315
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Gold Trophy for BVB.
In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole. |
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frankfurter
May 18, 2005, 3:37 AM
Post #112 of 315
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In short people who don't eat meat are crazy...yeah, definitly crazy.
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wonderbread
May 18, 2005, 3:41 AM
Post #113 of 315
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How many kids do you have Nebo?
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 4:11 AM
Post #114 of 315
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I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege.
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iamthewallress
May 18, 2005, 4:13 AM
Post #115 of 315
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In reply to: Gold Trophy for BVB.
I gave him one for his first post.
And to answer nebo's musings about how 4th class could be considered 'safe enough' when a fall could result in death, I invite you to try two of Yosemite's favorite family outings. The Falls Trail and the Half Dome Cables. Both are rated 2nd class by Roper FWIW. In both cases getting biffed by rockfall or dropped gear is a possibility, and although helmets might be advised, I've never seen anyone sporting one on these routes. A fall on either could result in death. On the half dome cables, it almost certainly would result in death if the person actually cut loose. On any given Saturday in the month of June CPS could harvest parents by the busload for wrecklessly endangering their children on these death routes.
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kman
May 18, 2005, 4:13 AM
Post #116 of 315
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Holy crap. The fuckin pics are tilted. The terrain isn't even that bad. He is passing off tilted pics as being hard core climbing. Who the fuck are you guys to call child services on this man? That's a little harsh don't you think?
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 4:21 AM
Post #117 of 315
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In reply to: I've just referred Storm and Jinjee to the Child Protective Services office in their area. I hope they lose their children to the state. It would certainly be the best thing for them. How can they even call themselves "parents" when they force their children to risk their lives in pursuit of their father's sport? Raising children should not be a right, it should be a privilege. I hope they lose that privilege.
and i e-mailed storm that as a child advocacy activist and life-long climber, i'd be more thsn happy to travel to california in the extremely unlikely event that something should ever come of this.
you ready to do that? how deep is your committment to the safety and well-being of at-risk children? ready to get off the couch, you freak? ready to fly to california to testify? what are your credentials. aside from being an ass??
see you in california, i hope.
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zozo
May 18, 2005, 4:25 AM
Post #118 of 315
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This whole fucking thread makes me want to take a shower.
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pa
May 18, 2005, 4:36 AM
Post #119 of 315
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In reply to: This whole f---ing thread makes me want to take a shower.
amen. i have never come across such a pathetic thread on any website. ever. you people are the ones who should be turned over to the state. punters.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 4:41 AM
Post #120 of 315
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I don't need to go down to CA to tell that what's going on is wrong. The pics and the text speak for themselves. Those children are in imminent danger. I can tell that from here. Child services can do the rest. If there's no smoke, there's no fire. Given your PM, I highly doubt you are the humaitarian you claim. Chill.
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jumpingrock
May 18, 2005, 4:43 AM
Post #121 of 315
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Am I allowed to be highly entertained by this thread? The hypocracy of modern society is shocking yet somehow expected.
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strongerthanyesterday
May 18, 2005, 4:44 AM
Post #122 of 315
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this thread is a little strange. i came across a similar thread on another website, but i thought it was more along the lines of, "hey, what is your opinion on this" rather than "oh my GOD someone should take this guy's kids away, don't you agree"? i think the foster system would be WAY more traumatic, havn't you heard the horror stories? the CPS is WAY overloaded with more urgent cases and is understaffed and overworked.
i think getting up in storm's email box, his personal life, and calling cps is WAY out of line. its one thing to ask people what they think about it, and to express your own opinion, but i don't think that is reasonable to take an informal survey online and trump a few people's opinions as the Voice of the Climbing Establishment and get all up in someone's grill.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 4:45 AM
Post #123 of 315
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In reply to: How many kids do you have Nebo?
Two grown children, both of whom I've climbed with (although my daugter didn't enjoy it much, so we didn't climb together) and now a 14-year old foster daughter who is not very interested in outdoor things.
May I ask why you inquire?
I want to say: it's a bit of a surprise to me that this forum is turning into an attack on me. Several people have said, if I'm so concerned, why I don't do something useful, other than tattle on other people's actions. Here's this weeks list (although some of these activities will spill over into next week also):
Made a small cash donation to a local youth organization (which I helped to get started several years ago).
Donated software services through my business to Survivors of Torture International.
Donated software services through my business to Region Nine afterschool sites in California.
Gave my foster daughter rides to school; took her to and watched her rehearsal for her play that opens this week.
Offered $1000 of pro bono programming to a youth services program in New York City. Ditto for Imperial County Office of Education Youth and Family Resources program.
Spent a pretty penny on college tuition for my son.
Arranged with a homeless shelter a creative financing strategy to make feasible implementing a long-range evaluation strategy.
Began planning with a local organization that works with disabled children for a board retreat, which I have volunteered to facilitate next month.
Lent an encouraging ear to my therapist friend who is battling his county's mental health department (he reported them for child neglect and the judge sided with him when they went to court).
Became aware of a child at significant risk through parental poor judgement and attempted a creative intervention on her behalf.
Have I ever done this tattling thing before? Never, in 52 years, except in an earlier phase of my career when I was director of youth service programs and a family therapist; I was a mandated reporter then, and twice (if I recall correctly), after long discussion with colleagues, I had to make the call--and I hated doing it. Like I said before, I usually keep my nose out things like this. But I reiterate: while I recognize that many of you disagree with me, even to the point of offering to do me violence (!), my opinion is that it is right to stand up for this child.
One of my good friends, a long time climber who is watching this post, gently said, "I'm not sure that climbers are the best group to try to mobilize for this kind of thing..."
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rgold
May 18, 2005, 4:51 AM
Post #124 of 315
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I think the extemists on both sides have gotten out of hand. On the one side, the Storm apologists seem to be saying there is nothing the matter with browbeating your wife and 11 year old daughter into soloing 4th class choss. (Some give as reasons that they chose to do such things when they were kids, but that is very different from having a parent push you into it.) 4th class choss is still deadly, and get real, one climber---even if they weren't terrified themselves---cannot spot another on that stuff. The commentary on the site, rather than Storm's revisions here, makes it clear that Storm was concerned his daughter might fall, yet he considered the benefits of the experience worth the risk to her life. In my book, that's fucked up. In some sense it is abuse, and the wife seems to me to be as abused as the daughter.
How would the Storm apologists react if the little girl fell and died? Would you think the rest of the family needed protection or not?
The extremists on the other side seem to think this dysfunctional family interaction is grounds for calling CPS. Well, hmmm. A lot of families push their kids into doing things that are risky. Gymnastics, scuba diving, and, er, climbing come to mind. I'm going to call down the holy ire of half the climbers in the universe by wondering aloud whether anyone who takes their kids climbing isn't doing the same thing as Storm, by which I mean voluntarily exposing them to unnecessary risks because the parents like the activity and think it will be "good" for their kids. Sure, most climbing parents are infinitely less casual about the safety of their children than Storm is, but climbing has its risks, exposing children to them is a choice made by the parent, and if questioned, the parents will say, as Storm does, that the rewards are worth the risks. Is CPS supposed to intervene in these cases too?
There are people out there who beat their children to death, starve them, tie them up and lock them in rooms, prostitute them, committing horrible, one would like to say inhuman, acts. CPS is supposed to protect those children, and sadly their hands are full. If the cavalry has to be called in for Storm's family, then there's a whole hell of a lot of other folks on the list too.
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philfell
May 18, 2005, 4:51 AM
Post #125 of 315
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I've seen boyscout troops out doing hikes that I deem far too dangerous, with scout leaders who don't have the knowledge they should for the type of outings they embark on. Should we try to put an end to the boy scouts, believe me I've seen some really bad stuff. (Last year in SLC a kid got bit by a baby rattle snake after the scout leader told the kid it was ok to play with the snake.)
To be honest you can't tell anything from the pics. Hook-up with Storm and climb it yourself then make a judgment, don't take a 2D tilted image and make a opinion on weather it's safe or not. YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE ACTUAL CLIMB.
Many parent exploit their kid for monetary purposes. When I was a kid, I worked construction for my dad. It gave me a chance to make some money in the summer. It also gave my dads company more profit, because he was paying me to do jobs I was capable of doing at the age of 12 or 13, and I was way cheaper than paying an adult with a family to do the same job. Should I have been taken away from my family because a construction site is a dangerous place to be, and my dad was "exploiting child labor"??? Have you ever saw a child actor/actress on T.V.??
I think people are going overboard, and jumping to conclusions when they only have a small portion of the truth.
One comment about calling the humain society if the neighbors dog was being neglected. Yes I'd call. This is a neighbors dog, one that I CAN SEE, it treatment. NOT a pic of a dog on the INTERNET with a story written by a hippy. Do some real research before you start messing with someone family. You people should be ashamed of yourselves!
Way to make a statement BVB.
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