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bigjonnyc
May 26, 2005, 3:53 PM
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Besides the experimental evidence that has been linked in this thread thanks to rgold, anyone who has taken a basic physics course could easily understand how a jump when the climber is about to tension the rope would lower the forces at all points in the system. The largest force exerted on the system is directly governed by Newton's second law of motion:
F=m*a (force is equal to the product of the mass and the rate of negative acceleration of the climber),
where 'a' can be written as:
(v2-v1)/t (the initial speed minus the final speed, divided by the time to slow the climber)
or just:
(-v1)/t (as the initial speed is the rate of the fall, and the final speed is zero, i.e. the climber comes to a stop)
so finally we end up with:
F=m*(-v1)/t
since the mass of the climber and his falling speed at the time he starts to weight the rope for any particular drop can be written as constants , we can see that the force on the system is directly governed only by the inverse of the time it takes to slow the climber to a stop (the longer the time to stop, the less the force on the system). As anyone who has received a jumping belay, and hopefully anyone who stops to think about it knows, the time to come to a stop for a jumping belay is longer than that of a static belay. If the time is longer, then the force is less.
So, rockmaninoff, I ask that you please take these opinions that you spend zero time researching, and and shove them where the sun don't shine.
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jt512
May 26, 2005, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: PS- In a dynamic belay, the belayer remains at his/her stance and the rope sliding through the belay device is what provides the "cushioning". Call me crazy, but I've heard about five different definitions of a dynamic belay--three of them on this site--and none of them match that. What's dynamic about it? Why would anyone call a belay in which the belayer is static a dynamic belay? What would a static belay be, then?
The way most climbers use the terms nowadays, a static belay is one in which the belayer locks off, does not move, and the rope does not appreciably slip through the belay device. Thus, the fact that a dynamic rope is being used does not mean that the belay is dynamic. In a dynamic belay either the rope slips through the device or the belayer moves toward the climber to soften the catch. Thus, running backward to shorten a fall is not a dynamic belay, and the mistake that n00bs sometimes make of calling such a belay "dynamic" confuses the issue. Some Old Trads (tm) distinguish between a traditional "dynamic belay," in which the belayer lets the rope slip and a "jumping belay."
-Jay
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csproul
May 26, 2005, 4:25 PM
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I don't think there is much question as to whether a dynamic belay offers a softer catch and reduces force on pro and climber. I think what is in question is most people's ability to time that jump as to do this effectively. I for one don't believe that most people are capable of doing this outside of a gym or maybe a short verticle/overhanging climb where the falls are easy to see and judge. Unless I have a belayer who I believe can perform a dynamic belay I'd rather they didn't bother. My belayers first responsibility is to catch me and then to no short rope me. Since I have seen very few people use this correctly, the dynamic belay is just icing on the cake and really secondary. Not to mention the fact that most of my climbing is trad and alpine and the belayer often can't even see the leader.
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jt512
May 26, 2005, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: I don't think there is much question as to whether a dynamic belay offers a softer catch and reduces force on pro and climber. I think what is in question is most people's ability to time that jump as to do this effectively. I for one don't believe that most people are capable of doing this outside of a gym or maybe a short verticle/overhanging climb where the falls are easy to see and judge. Unless I have a belayer who I believe can perform a dynamic belay I'd rather they didn't bother. My belayers first responsibility is to catch me and then to no short rope me. Since I have seen very few people use this correctly, the dynamic belay is just icing on the cake and really secondary. Not to mention the fact that most of my climbing is trad and alpine and the belayer often can't even see the leader.
The bolded phrase explains why you don't think "jumping" belays are practical. I can assure you that they are routine in sport climbing; and many sport climbers, including me, consider them mandatory, and will not climb anything hard with a partner who cannot reliably execute them.
-Jay
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grover
May 26, 2005, 4:43 PM
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I"m betting 10+ pages before this dribble ends.....................
Any takers?
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crshbrn84
May 26, 2005, 4:45 PM
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:troll: :troll: :troll: :deadhorse:
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rockmaninoff
May 26, 2005, 7:42 PM
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First, let me clarify. My "generalization" is referring to two situations in particular:
1. The belayer jumps EVERY TIME slack is taken in on a toproped climb.
2. The belayer jumps to cushion the leader's fall.
I suppose most climbers take no issue with number one.
As for number two, it is interesting that several of you are so ready to criticize me for stating an opinion in this forum rather than ask a question. Apparently you have all the knowledge and experience and the rest of us don't. You also apparently forgot the definition of a forum.
Here are my questions for you, O founts of knowledge: Is there anything to suggest that jumping is a practice worthy of regular implementation? Any mention in Freedom? Any mention in How to Rock Climb? Perhaps a morsel from Advanced Rock Climbing? What about any other climbing texts?
By the way, I checked out the links provided and there is nothing to suggest that jumping is a good idea. As for the R & I link, the author fails to mention that he achieved his "reduction" on the top piece only by increasing stress on the anchor. Unless your top piece is a micro, (and for most of you who've chimed in, your top piece is a BOLT), there is no need to jump in this situation. To be really useful to the majority of climbers, the figure should demonstrate an anchored belayer PULLED upward during a fall, with the anchor arresting his upward movement.
I will not argue that a well-timed jump on a lead fall may diminish the pounding a leader will take, and, especially on short sport climbs, a little slack is exactly what the leader needs to prevent a good thrashing. This situation is best handled by a belayer prepared to pay out a necessary amount of slack, not by jumping.
Let me put this thread to rest by saying that many of you, even those of you who have attacked me, are smart belayers. There are exceptions to rules that dont need to be parsed ad infinitum. If your only method of providing what your leader needs is to jump, then have at it! I think there are safer ways to provide a good belay.
I say that in general the safest belay with modern gear is static, with the dynamic element coming from rope and natural forces on belayer, leader, and appropriate gear. In cases where a deliberate dynamic belay is warranted, that element should come from rope paid through device which is then locked off, not "hopefully well-timed" acrobatics from the belayer, who should be securely and solidly anchored anyway.
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fiend
May 26, 2005, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: I have read many posts referring to a dynamic belay as "jumping at just the right moment to cushion your partner's fall". I have also witnessed scores of belayers (usually belaying a toproped climb) jumping while taking in slack. This is ridiculous. It is NEVER appropriate to jump while belaying. It will usually cause greater forces to be placed on gear. Plus, it makes you look like a buffoon. Those of you who jump, please stop. PS- In a dynamic belay, the belayer remains at his/her stance and the rope sliding through the belay device is what provides the "cushioning".
I think that's why so many people attacked you, and I can't say I blame them.
Broad generalizations are never a good idea.
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sticky_fingers
May 26, 2005, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: First, let me clarify. My "generalization" is referring to two situations in particular: 1. The belayer jumps EVERY TIME slack is taken in on a toproped climb. 2. The belayer jumps to cushion the leader's fall. I suppose most climbers take no issue with number one.
I don't take issue with either of them. For situation 1, if I believe I'm just about finished with a crux section on TR, but too gassed to move on, I'll yell "Take" to my belayer who will hopefully jump up/whatever to take in enough slack so that when I sit, I don't drop back down into or before the crux section. Situation 2...wait for example below
In reply to: Here are my questions for you, O founts of knowledge: Is there anything to suggest that jumping is a practice worthy of regular implementation? Any mention in Freedom? Any mention in How to Rock Climb? Perhaps a morsel from Advanced Rock Climbing? What about any other climbing texts?
I counter with "is there anything to suggest that jumping isn't a practice worthy of regular implementation?" I only learned about this type of belaying a couple years ago. Given that I've been climbing for about 7-8 years and have only heard about it recently makes me think it's either a relatively new method, or wasn't practiced much.
In reply to: ...a well-timed jump on a lead fall may diminish the pounding a leader will take, and, especially on short sport climbs
:roll:
It won't work for long climbs? Whether you're 6 feet above a bolt 30 feet off the ground or 6 feet above a bolt 3000 feet above the ground, how does it matter?
In reply to: I say that in general the safest belay with modern gear is static, with the dynamic element coming from rope and natural forces on belayer, leader, and appropriate gear. In cases where a deliberate dynamic belay is warranted, that element should come from rope paid through device which is then locked off, not "hopefully well-timed" acrobatics from the belayer, who should be securely and solidly anchored anyway.
If I hadn't seen it and experienced first hand, I would have agreed, but here's my real world example(s). I happen to have gotten my first dynamic/jumping belay about 2 years ago and the difference it made in the way I came to stop was unlike any other I'd ever felt while lead falling; much softer and, as I later learned, much more comfortable to my lighter weight belayer. Fast forward a couple months later and another friend was leading and a different belayer was belaying on same route. The belayer anticipated the leader to fall, and braced himself. When the leader fell (slightly off plumb line), he got jerked and whipped around from all the energy generated when he fell. If his belayer jiumped up at the right time, the leader would have pendulumed (?) less and stopped more graceful.
The question is, do you think gyms (where most people learn climbing/leading/belaying/etc) will every encourage or teach dynamic belaying?
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anson
May 26, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: As for number two, it is interesting that several of you are so ready to criticize me for stating an opinion in this forum rather than ask a question. Apparently you have all the knowledge and experience and the rest of us don't. You also apparently forgot the definition of a forum.
I refer you to your OP:
In reply to: This is ridiculous. It is NEVER appropriate to jump while belaying. It will usually cause greater forces to be placed on gear. Plus, it makes you look like a buffoon. Those of you who jump, please stop.
You failed to preface your comments with 'in my opinion'. You insulted the people who do the dynamic belays. You asked them to change their behavior. None of this is consistent with merely stating an opinion. Perhaps if you had mitigated your tone, you would have gotten less static in reply.
I wish you better luck the next time you 'state an opinion', but I'd advise you to learn a little bit more about effective communication techniques first.
-aB
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rockmaninoff
May 26, 2005, 8:46 PM
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Well, let me make another generalization.
Most people I see at the crags and especially the gym don't use the "jumping belay" correctly. They are jumping up and down like they've lost the keys to the WC during the entire climb. Or, they jump when the leader falls and their weight comes onto the rope at about the same time as the leader's. Or they get slammed into the wall. Or they lose control of the belay. Or everything goes as planned.
Some of these people are new to climbing, but many just have inflated egos.
Therefore, I think it IS appropriate to make a generalization to climbers: there are better ways of providing a dynamic belay; it isn't necessary to jump.
And if anyone was actually insulted by my first statement, I apologize. I doubt anyone with sufficient technical knowledge or self-confidence was hurt seriously. Most people don't measure their self-worth by their belay style, proper or not.
BTW: a forum is a place to state opinions, not a place to make obeisance to or ask questions of the Gods.
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joshy8200
May 26, 2005, 8:50 PM
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I'm going to have to agree with the 'jumping dynamic belay camp' on this one. I've experienced a couple of dynamic belays before...and the catch is very soft and slow.
I will agree with you that if someone is "jumping EVERYTIME to take up toprope slack" it would be annoying. However, when I'm taking up slack to keep someone VERY TIGHT so that they don't have to re-climb a section or need to be held close to the anchors...I will jump to take up the slack.
You do make a good point (unless this is a REALLY new technique) that it is not given much/if any coverage in climbing books that I've read.
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fiend
May 26, 2005, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: I doubt anyone with sufficient technical knowledge or self-confidence was hurt seriously. Most people don't measure their self-worth by their belay style, proper or not.
Anyone with 'sufficient technical knowledge or self-confidence' blew you off as a wanker immediately. Your arguments are often silly and have no basis in the reality that many of us have experienced.
When I was sport climbing, I was getting, using, and seeing a jump catch on a regular basis... with no problems. Sure people, mis-time it now and again, but a good dynamic sport catch generally involves a combo of slack and jumping. Hell, if you've got a good belayer/climber weight ratio then you're not even jumping and are just going with the pull. What happens if a person screws up the jump timing? They end up having the climber fall onto the slack (the same slack you advise feeding out) and the belayer stays static (which is what you advise, no?).
How often do you see people anchor themselves when sport climbing? How often have you belayed with a gri-gri? Every tried mimicking an ATC style dynamic belay with a gri-gri? It don't work that way.
Your initial post came off as egotistical and ordering. Who the hell are you to tell me that I should never use a jumping belay? A static belay as you describe is exactly the reason my right ankle is still messed up four years after the accident.
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fiend
May 26, 2005, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, but you may not delete posts that have been replied to.
Double post.
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jt512
May 26, 2005, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: First, let me clarify. My "generalization" is referring to two situations in particular: 1. The belayer jumps EVERY TIME slack is taken in on a toproped climb. 2. The belayer jumps to cushion the leader's fall. I suppose most climbers take no issue with number one.
The reason for jumping to suck up slack has been explained completely by sticky_fingers, and I have nothing to add.
In reply to: As for number two... Here are my questions for you, O founts of knowledge: Is there anything to suggest that jumping is a practice worthy of regular implementation? Any mention in Freedom? Any mention in How to Rock Climb? Perhaps a morsel from Advanced Rock Climbing? What about any other climbing texts?
Largo discusses dynamic belaying in at least one text, though I can't recall which one, and magazine articles have discussed it numerous times. As for FOTH and How to Rock Climb, are you so much of a n00b that you do not realize that these books are written for beginners?
Jumping to provide a dynamic belay has been a standard sport climbing technique since the grigri was adopted as the standard sport climbing belay device. Do I need to explain why you have to jump to provide a dynamic belay with a grigri?
In reply to: I will not argue that a well-timed jump on a lead fall may diminish the pounding a leader will take...
Yeah, that's kinda the whole point. So, why did you start this thread again?
In reply to: ...a little slack is exactly what the leader needs to prevent a good thrashing.
Although slack in the system is usually good, slack does not provide a dynamic belay, since it does not increase the time over which the climber is decelerated, and therefore does not reduce the impact force.
In reply to: This situation is best handled by a belayer prepared to pay out a necessary amount of slack, not by jumping.
I have no argument with that if the belayer is using a conventional belay device, and has practiced the technique.
In reply to: I say that in general the safest belay with modern gear is static, with the dynamic element coming from rope and natural forces on belayer, leader, and appropriate gear.
I have over $20,000 of hospital bills that says you're wrong. Get off the slabs, and take a couple of slams into a nice steep rock face by a static belay from a belayer who outweighs you by 70 lb, and report back.
In reply to: In cases where a deliberate dynamic belay is warranted, that element should come from rope paid through device which is then locked off, not "hopefully well-timed" acrobatics from the belayer, who should be securely and solidly anchored anyway.
Jumping to belay is not acrobatics, with practice the timing is easy to get for most people who are coordinated enough to sport climb in the first place, and anchoring to belay in sport climbing is usually neither practical nor the safest option.
-Jay
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rockmaninoff
May 26, 2005, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: I don't take issue with either of them. For situation 1, if I believe I'm just about finished with a crux section on TR, but too gassed to move on, I'll yell "Take" to my belayer who will hopefully jump up/whatever to take in enough slack so that when I sit, I don't drop back down into or before the crux section.
In reply to: I counter with "is there anything to suggest that jumping isn't a practice worthy of regular implementation?" I only learned about this type of belaying a couple years ago. Given that I've been climbing for about 7-8 years and have only heard about it recently makes me think it's either a relatively new method, or wasn't practiced much.
In reply to: It won't work for long climbs? Whether you're 6 feet above a bolt 30 feet off the ground or 6 feet above a bolt 3000 feet above the ground, how does it matter? |
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rockmaninoff
May 26, 2005, 9:20 PM
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I expected more from you, Jay.
I think the $20,000 says only that YOU did something wrong.
Edited to say: You all seem to be missing the point. I support dynamic belays. Jumping is usually not the best way to provide them.
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tavs
May 26, 2005, 9:25 PM
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Count me as another one in the dynamic belay through jumping camp, and most especially and necessarily on sport routes and when a gri-gri is being used, though even with an ATC for certain people I know who outweigh me...Speaking of such people, I have two friends who are long-term climbers, very experienced in just about every facet of the game (sport, trad, bouldering, ice, alpine, etc) who I strongly prefer not to have belaying me on sport routes because they do not give truly dynamic belays--they don't jump. I'm lucky to have not been seriously hurt from a static belay, but I've been shocked, jerked, and wrenched far too many times. A belayer sitting back with a loosened grip on an ATC belay device just does not get the job done.
And on that point...correct me if necessary, but I think a jumping belay (even if mistimed) is far safer than trying to be dynamic paying out rope. I'd think the chances of losing control of the brake side of the rope are far greater than doing causing someone harm by jumping, and the timing would seem much harder to master than the timing involved in jumping. Yes, I realize we all rappel by letting the brake side slide through our hands, but that is a smooth, consistent process, not one (like catching a fall) in which there's going to be a moment of sudden, forceful impact. If you mistime the jump, your climber has a hard catch (with incumbent potential injury), if you mistime paying the rope out (and don't stop in time), you could lose control of the belay (with incumbent potential disaster).
I might also add that from your description of the jumping belays you've seen, that you witness an awful lot of quite awful belaying.
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jt512
May 26, 2005, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: I expected more from you, Jay.
I explained in considerable detail why a jumping belay is necessary. What more do you want?
In reply to: I think the $20,000 says only that YOU did something wrong.
Yeah, I failed to critically evaluate my belayer.
You have no idea what you are talking about. How could you, based on your limited experience. According to the routes in your profile (and your own description), you climb easy trad almost exclusively, which suggests that your routes are too slabby for a dynamic belay to be necessary or approriate. I say again: get on something that overhangs 10 degrees, climb 10 feet above your last bolt/piece have your anchored belayer just lock off the rope and jump off. Now, repeat a dozen times in an afternoon; then do the same thing the next day. Then, we'll talk about dynamic belaying. In the meantime you are arguing from a position of utter ignorance.
-Jay
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fiend
May 26, 2005, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: I started climbing to prepare for an ascent of the Grand Teton. Four years later, I still haven't stood atop the Grand but have enjoyed hundreds of ascents in my backyard Wasatch. ... I also revel in the technical aspect of climbing, and have studied climbing techniques for about ten years.
This confuses me... how long have you actually been climbing?
As much as I'm willing to admit that experience comes with bad habits, it seems as though you've spent more time learning the theory behind climbing than actually doing it.
Real world situations differ immensely from those found on paper. You can postulate all you want on the detriment of a dynamic belay, but most of that isn't worth a damn in the real world. I'm truly sorry that your only climbing experiences have been in areas full of incompetents, but in my 14 years of climbing in places like the Red River Gorge, the New River Gorge, Rumney, the Niagara Escarpment, Joshua Tree, Little and Big Cottonwood Canyons, Smith Rock, Bishop, Squamish, Malibu Creek, Williamson, Yosemite, Skaha, Thailand, and a few other places I'm not remembering, I just haven't seen the rampant idiocy that you describe.
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jt512
May 26, 2005, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: Edited to say: You all seem to be missing the point. I support dynamic belays. Jumping is usually not the best way to provide them.
No, you have missed my point. This is the 21st century and we use grigris almost exclusively to sport climb (for reasons of both safety and convenience), and we climb steep routes, on which when (not if) you fall, the dynamics of the system are insufficient to protect the climber from injury; thus a dynamic belay is necessary; however, because a grigri is the belay device, the only way to belay dynamically is to jump.
-Jay
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stevep
May 26, 2005, 9:35 PM
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Well, rach, since you're replying, I'm going to assume this is not a troll, but you still seem to be making a fair number of generalizations without experience or evidence to back them up.
From your profile it looks like you've climbed a bunch of moderate trad stuff in LCC. Come climb with me on a steep 13 in AF or Maple, then make your judgements. Better yet get somebody who outweighs you by more than 50lbs. to belay you on one of those and take a whip. See what a slam feels like.
As far as jumping versus letting the rope slip, I'd much rather have the jumping while locked off. Trying to do a controlled slip of the rope is an invitation to accidentally lose control and have somebody deck. This is a lot less likely with a locked off jump.
You at least seem to understand one thing correctly. The historical use of the dynamic belay was to save hemp ropes from breaking. This is no longer an issue and there is no reason to jump while belaying a lower angle trad climb.
But for steep sport routes its a useful if not necessary technique if the climber significantly outweighs the belayer. To claim anything else is showing either ignorance or inexperience.
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ubiestmea
May 26, 2005, 9:37 PM
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Here fishy fishy!!!!!!
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sticky_fingers
May 26, 2005, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It won't work for long climbs? Whether you're 6 feet above a bolt 30 feet off the ground or 6 feet above a bolt 3000 feet above the ground, how does it matter? Come on! You should know that the forces involved are a factor of how much rope is out to be "stretched", not just how far above the protection the leader falls. A 6-foot fall from 30 feet up has a much higher fall factor that a 6-foot fall with "3000 feet" of rope out!
I think you're forgetting what I responded to. You said, In reply to: ...a well-timed jump on a lead fall may diminish the pounding a leader will take, and, especially on short sport climbs
You never mentioned anything about fall factor, nor did I. You did say something that I thought was incorrect and/or made no sense. I reiterate: how does the length of a climb matter? If you meant length of slack, than you might want to edit or correct your previous post.
In reply to: You should know that the forces involved are a factor of how much rope is out to be "stretched", not just how far above the protection the leader falls.
After re-reading this, I don't understand this part either. Unless you're climbing on a bungee corde, the ratio of rope stretch to fall length is usually negligible. Hell I'll take a fall factor 2 on a bungee anyday, but you won't catch me taking a FF 2 on a static rope! Again, I think you're almost right here, but missed the boat a little. It's not a matter of how much rope is "out" as much as how elastic the rope is.
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