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curt
Sep 27, 2004, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: Can anyone tell me of any articles or books that describe the progression of climbing gear from the early pitons and nuts to today's equipment. I am writing a report on the development of climbing gear for an engineering class. Thanks.
Don't forget the part about the Ford model "A" axles. Good stuff.
Curt
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abissonade
Sep 27, 2004, 8:30 PM
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Interesting question, interesting answers. Looks like many of you forget that the early days of climbing were in Europe, and not so much the US.
I do not know who invented the cam, but it must be some of these good old names that are famous in the Alps, like W. Bonatti, T. Hiebeler, and so on.
But, my feeling is, a special cam, the friend was invented in the US. ... and I love it the most.
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kostik
Aug 10, 2005, 3:22 PM
Post #53 of 76
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Interesting topic. There were two Abalakov brothers: Evgeny:
http://www.skitalets.ru/...otaev/risunok042.jpg
http://www.stolby.ru/...osh/abalakov_evg.jpg
and Vitaly:
http://www.stolby.ru/Mat/Gubanov/1/148.jpg
http://www.baurock.ru/history/abalakov.jpg
Evgeny became famous as a mountaineer after summitting Pik Kommunizma 7 495 m. After WWII he declared that he was launching expeditions to K2 and Everest. In March 1948, soon after his Everest proposal, he and another mountaineer were found dead in a bathroom. Apparently, the fire was accidentally extinguished in the water heater and they got poisoned by gas.
Vitaly is known as an inventor of a number of things, including the aforementioned camming device. He also proposed the acclimatization procedure still used by Russian climbers. It is said that Vitaly was jealous of Evgeny's glory and was an overall unsavory person. Nevertheless, he led Soviet mountaineering organization for decades and organized a number of successful expeditions.
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cervicornis
Sep 29, 2005, 6:54 AM
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Lowe's patent issued in April, 1975 (#3,877,679) and Jardine's issued in January, 1980 (#4,184,657)...
You can view both patents, as well as many, many others on camming devices by visting www.uspto.gov.
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healyje
Sep 29, 2005, 7:58 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: reference above photo Whats the green shoe? PA? Nice Titon. CMI had a cam of sorts, too, along those lines, come along in around '79 or so? Good ol' gear... -Brian in SLC
I'm with Curt and my vote goes to Abalakov.
The CMI "Swivel of Death" cam came out in the mid-70's and sucked beyond all comprehension - dangerous as far as we were concerned. They made the SMC Camlocks seem functionally elegant by comparison and they SUCKED BIG TIME (but still look cool)!!!! Titons? Still love'm and climb with a #8 sewn on a shoulder sling every now and then...
[and p.s. hold that camlock up against a real cam lobe again and you'll see they are not the same, but that the camlock flattens out quite prematurely...]
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t-dog
Deleted
Sep 29, 2005, 8:27 AM
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In reply to: In March 1948, soon after his Everest proposal, he and another mountaineer were found dead in a bathroom. Apparently, the fire was accidentally extinguished in the water heater and they got poisoned by gas.
Rrrrriiiiiggghhhtttt.....
Sounds more like a cover-up for some torrid mountaineering love affair to me than a pilot flame going out.... :o
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superbum
Oct 11, 2005, 1:41 AM
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READ:
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsmuseum.htm
great history here....Lots of Pics too!
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argonaut
Aug 17, 2006, 8:56 AM
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The "Friends" were originally created, designed, developed and initially produced by Forrest Mountaineering in the early 1970's, about 2-3 years before we gave them to Ray who then took them to "Wild Country" The very first ones we built were the #2 and #3 sizes that we used on the first attempt to climb the "Nose" in under 24 hours. The following year we had designed the full range of "Friends" that spanned from 3/4" to 4". This is obviously a late posting but it came up on a Google search. Bill Forrest and myself were co-owners of "Forrest Mountaineering". The article "Climbing Friends" written for Stephane Pennequin's "Nuts Story" details the history of the "Friends" and is available on request.
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solutionpocket
Aug 18, 2006, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Can anyone tell me of any articles or books that describe the progression of climbing gear from the early pitons and nuts to today's equipment. I am writing a report on the development of climbing gear for an engineering class. Thanks. Don't forget the part about the Ford model "A" axles. Good stuff. Curt
Model "A" axles...
I guess you could say that Ray Jardine is the Henry Ford of SLCDs. He didn't invent them, but he certainly was the catalyst of their popularity.
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brianinslc
Aug 22, 2006, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: The "Friends" were originally created, designed, developed and initially produced by Forrest Mountaineering in the early 1970's...
And...who was it that coined the word, "friends"?
Pretty cool!
Neat history.
That website (where the article resides) is amazing.
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
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dynoho
Aug 22, 2006, 5:37 PM
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My Guess....
A crustacean called Nautilus.
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krusher4
Aug 22, 2006, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: Greg Lowe is the correct answer. He had the first prototype and the first pantent on the slcd then he showed it to ray. Greg also designed the new omega link cam. I got to play with one of the prototypes and about shat myself. They make all other cams worthless.
I have never heard of Greg showing the cam to Ray but there are quite a few problems with the New Omega's so I dont know about making all others worthless.
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argonaut
Aug 24, 2006, 5:39 PM
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An excerpt from "Climbing Friends" gives the origin of the naming of the "Friends"
The christening of our “Friends” happened one afternoon on our way to a front range climbing area. Secrecy was always a concern during the development stages so it was always essential to be careful and guarded when we were discussing the cam devices in public places. While having lunch at a small café, we began referring to them with the code word “Friends” and it was immediately obvious that we had stumbled onto some marketing “Devine Inspiration”. Before we had finished the meal, we had penned a number of advertising slogans with the newfound name.
I get high with a little help from my “Friends”. (Borrowed from the Beetles.)
Who are your best “Friends”?
Are your “Friends” rock solid?
I have “Friends” in high places.
And my personal favorite, A “Friend” will never let you down.
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cracklover
Aug 24, 2006, 6:20 PM
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Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I meant the idea for the design.
GO
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argonaut
Aug 24, 2006, 6:39 PM
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My apologies please, I was trying to respond to "brianinslc posted 22 August 2006 16:05" I can email you "Climbing Friends" as an attachment if you send me your Edress, thanks.
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brianinslc
Aug 24, 2006, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I meant the idea for the design.
This may be totally off, or rumor, or conjecture, or whatever. But...here's the story I heard from Greg. He showed his cam over dinner with Bill and Ray. Greg also disputes that the idea for constant cam angle and logrithmic spiral came from Russia, but, went to the USSR on a Soviet sponsered climbing exchange with Jeff (along with their idea on an ice hour glass v-thread, which apparently came back to the US with the Soviet climbers on a later US sponsered climbing exchange, henceforth to be called the "Abalakov"). If you look through old Summit magazines from back then, there's a bunch of pictures of Abalakov cam designs that the Soviet climbers were using that looked basicially like cut up pulleys, but, the date of the article was post the US trip over there. I think I posted some pictures of it on this site somewhere...
Anyhoo, dunno if that's the case or not, but, its what Greg told me. I'm not totally sure of the outcome of the patent infringement deal between folks, but, I think Greg made out ok with that situation.
Marty, the infamous gear collector from Arizona was also around during this conversation, and he was psyched to chat with Greg as he had some photo's of Gregs L.A.S. cams he wanted (and got) Greg to sign. At least four different designs in his collection, some 4 cam units.
I think Greg was playing with these cams at least by the late 60's or so. Didn't get a patent until, what, 73 (applied for in 72?). L.A.S. used in the FA of Supercrack in Indian Creek. In the Stewart Green photo of Ed Webster on that route, you can clearly see the cam hanging from him (along with a caption on some of the photo's that no cam's were used!).
Interesting stuff. Be neat to set down the players and discuss this old history!
Anyhoo, FWIW, and, again, not sure the accuracy of the above, as my memory is hazy and adult beverages may have been involved in the discussions...
Edited to add:
Greg Lowe: filed for cam patent 8/16/1973. Granted 4/15/1975.
Ray Jardine: filed for cam patent 5/30/1978. Granted 1/22/80.
Patent pending wild country cam (doesn't say wild country on it, just "friend" and patent pending):
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1172.jpg
Still in use!
-Brian in SLC
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:26 PM
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:27 PM
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #70 of 76
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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andylee
Nov 8, 2006, 12:51 AM
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I see a few of you have asked for the whereabouts of Mr. Bill Forrest of Forrest Mountaineering. If it is the same person, I knew him as an avid climber and as the owner of "Executive Tools" in the early nineties. I would like to get a copy of an excellent goal setting system he authored. Can anyone out there help me?
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curtis_g
Nov 8, 2006, 1:54 AM
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I heard rumors that Curt invented the cam.
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ajkclay
Nov 8, 2006, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: man, I don't know s--- about s--- but that was a damn good answer.
now that deserves a trophy! Alas! I have none, anyone got a spare?
Cheers Adam
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curt
Nov 8, 2006, 4:18 AM
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In reply to: I heard rumors that Curt invented the cam.
No, that was the can. Before that, everyone had to shit in the woods.
Curt
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argonaut
Nov 9, 2006, 2:58 PM
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Bill Forrest and I were co-owners of Forrest Mountaineering in the 70's, Bill later became Executive Tools and I started Argonaut and AIRE inflatable cats and rafts. Please contact me off line, Kris@oceanid.com and I can send you his email contact.
Cheers,
Kris Walker
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