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jt512
Jun 23, 2006, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Thus, you will progress much faster if you work on your weakness rather than your strengths. The most important thing to do is correctly identify your weakness. I have identified my weakness as back, bicep, and tricep strength. And how did you "correctly" identify those weaknesses? Jay You correctly identify weaknesses through observing yourself and seeing in what situations you can't keep up with your buddies. I onsight close to my redpoint limit, thus I can determine that my ability to "read" routes is good. I rarely pump off of climbs, and thus I've determined that my forearms are strong. I can usually climb strong on vertical and less than vertical routes. The one place where I seem to have trouble keeping up with climbers of my ability level is on powerful overhangs. I have thus determined that my back, bicep and tricep muscles are my weakness. This makes since because when I used to lift weights in college, I never worked my back muscles. Thus they may be especially weak for my size (170 pounds). Isolated muscle groups are not likely why you have trouble on overhangs. More likely, you lack experience on overhangs, and thus have not learned how to climb them with efficient and effective movement. If so, then bouldering would likely be better training for you than doing biceps curls, pull-ups, and the like. Jay Nope. I have 6 years of overhanging bouldering experience. 2 months of pullups has increased my climbing ability drastically more than 2 years of focusing on bouldering.
Well, I guess that would work if your idea of climbing overhangs is to do pullups up them. Out of curiosity, how many pullups can you do and what's your redpoint level on steep routes?
Jay
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dbruning
Jun 23, 2006, 5:18 AM
Post #52 of 66
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I can somewhat identify with the op (as did some others) but before throwing in my 2 cents I will give some background. I climb for the fun and not the grade first off, just as satisfied leading (on trad) some long 5.7 with super exposure. I live in the Midwest, nuff said. I do not boulder for fun or to train and probably do at V-2. I do not climb at a gym, which living where I live limits my days out climbing (though I have bee known to kick it on the rock in February). I prefer trad but the closet crag is mostly sport (limestone). I have a small wall but do not have a training schedule on it. I'm not sure how many pull up I can do?
I have lead 5.9 on gear which is my present comfortable grade. I have led up to 5.10d on sport, and there have not been many routes 10b or below that I have not been able to onsight in the last couple of years. I'm usually the rope gun, so getting on harder stuff (to tr) does not happen much. Up until last year I never thought of even getting on 11+, though I was onsighting many 10s. Inidently last fall I tr'd an 11a at Devils Lake with a couple of takes due to just getting tired (1st weakness endurance).
After doing that I decided to attempt a 10d on lead (2nd weaknes in the works, mental) and did it with no falls or takes but I rested a long time before finishing.
This year I set goals to get out more than on the weekend an to climb all the 10s at my LC, which is somewhat working out. Yesterday I was out and met a few friends who were climbing (and they climb hard 12+) and asked to jump on this 11c they had led (my first climb of the day), seconded it with no falls. I was surprised! It was not as bad as I thought (as I did not think I would be able to finish). I found that just climbing through and not always stopping to rest right before/after a cruxy looking part helped, as well as reminding myself to breath. The I jumped on a 9+ on tr that I have led before and fell and sprained my ankle. When I heal I will attempt more 11s.
So, with my entire rant can I add any advice?!? 1. getting on and attempting those harder climbs on tr is a good start, what actually working a climb! 2. Climbing with higher grade climbers is a good motivator. 3. Climbing as many climbs near your limit will help with the endurance part I believe. 4. Continue having fun.
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deschamps1000
Jun 23, 2006, 6:15 PM
Post #53 of 66
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In reply to: Well, I guess that would work if your idea of climbing overhangs is to do pullups up them. Out of curiosity, how many pullups can you do and what's your redpoint level on steep routes? Jay
That is correct. I do have to pull up when climbing overhanging routes. Please let me and Rock & Ice know if you find a way to climb overhangs without pulling.
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jt512
Jun 23, 2006, 6:32 PM
Post #54 of 66
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In reply to: In reply to: Well, I guess that would work if your idea of climbing overhangs is to do pullups up them. Out of curiosity, how many pullups can you do and what's your redpoint level on steep routes? Jay That is correct. I do have to pull up when climbing overhanging routes. Please let me and Rock & Ice know if you find a way to climb overhangs without pulling.
I'm sure Rock and Ice already knows. The technique is to climb with your body sideways to the wall, using the lower body to initiate the moves, minimzing the effort required from the upper body. This is why it is possible to climb overhanging routes without being able to do many (maybe even any) pullups. What pull there is is primary across the body, not straight down, making pullups a poor exercise. Maybe you could get some benefit from mimicking the move using a cable machine, but nothing beats learning good technique and practicing it on the bouldering wall or the boulders themselves.
You didn't answer my question: How many pullups can you do, and what is your redpoint level on overhanging routes?
Jay
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deschamps1000
Jun 23, 2006, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: I'm sure Rock and Ice already knows. The technique is to climb with your body sideways to the wall, using the lower body to initiate the moves, minimzing the effort required from the upper body. This is why it is possible to climb overhanging routes without being able to do many (maybe even any) pullups. What pull there is is primary across the body, not straight down, making pullups a poor exercise. Maybe you could get some benefit from mimicking the move using a cable machine, but nothing beats learning good technique and practicing it on the bouldering wall or the boulders themselves. Jay
Hey Everyone! Jay has figured out how to climb overhangs without pulling!! This is amazing. I can't believe this! This marks a new era in the world of climbing... Note June 23rd, 2006 as the day that climbing was changed forever. We will soon see a "no hands" accent of Dreamtime, as well as a "no hands" 1 day free accent of the Shield. Ha, ha, ha!!
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caughtinside
Jun 23, 2006, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm sure Rock and Ice already knows. The technique is to climb with your body sideways to the wall, using the lower body to initiate the moves, minimzing the effort required from the upper body. This is why it is possible to climb overhanging routes without being able to do many (maybe even any) pullups. What pull there is is primary across the body, not straight down, making pullups a poor exercise. Maybe you could get some benefit from mimicking the move using a cable machine, but nothing beats learning good technique and practicing it on the bouldering wall or the boulders themselves. Jay Hey Everyone! Jay has figured out how to climb overhangs without pulling!! This is amazing. I can't believe this! This marks a new era in the world of climbing... Note June 23rd, 2006 as the day that climbing was changed forever. We will soon see a "no hands" accent of Dreamtime, as well as a "no hands" 1 day free accent of the Shield. Ha, ha, ha!!
Dude, technique is way more important for climbing overhangs than sheer pull up power. I don't care if you can do 30 pull ups, if your ass is dangling and your hips aren't turned in, you're not going anywhere but down.
I'm an average sport climber with probably average strength, and most pulling I do is across the body, with as much leg drive as possible.
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lazyjammin
Jun 23, 2006, 7:16 PM
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Get a project, like in the .11b-c range, and work it until you can send it. Also some bouldering might help. Best luck.
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zeke_sf
Jun 23, 2006, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: Dude, technique is way more important for climbing overhangs than sheer pull up power. I don't care if you can do 30 pull ups, if your ass is dangling and your hips aren't turned in, you're not going anywhere but down.
Caughtinside is right. I don't think the strongest person alive could campus a long 5.11. Or possibly even 5.10 climb. Boulder problems of the same level are one thing, but even He Man's arms are gonna get pumped without rest. Skeletor though, he's always been known for his killer footwork!
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deschamps1000
Jun 23, 2006, 9:15 PM
Post #59 of 66
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Yes, you are correct that technique is important. But you are all missing my point.
Technique can only get you so far. A 5.14 climber needs a tremendous amount of strength in addition to technique.
Of course, the opposite is true in that strength can only get you so far.
This whole thing started because I posted that my biggest weakness is strength and not technique. I argued that I am at a phase in my climbing where my ability will improve more through strength training than technique training. I have been climbing for 6 years now, and have a good idea of my strengths and weaknesses.
Somebody replied that I was wrong. I was arguing with them because I have a better understanding of my climbing strengths and weaknesses than some random person on the internet.
Eric
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caughtinside
Jun 23, 2006, 9:27 PM
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Fair enough. But given the number of girls who can do 0-2 pullups (mostly 0) who can out crank me any day of the week, while I can do around 10-12, would lead me to suspect that doing more pullups won't help my climbing.
But do what works for you.
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fracture
Jun 23, 2006, 10:41 PM
Post #61 of 66
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In reply to: ... I have a better understanding of my climbing strengths and weaknesses than some random person on the internet.
Yeah, one would probably expect that to be the case, intuitively.
However, intuition is often wrong.
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carl12
Jun 25, 2006, 4:40 PM
Post #62 of 66
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I just climbed my first 5.11 the other day after finally starting to feel comfortable on a few 5.10a's. I surprised myself, as I have climbed less that a dozen other routes above 5.10. My friend wanted to climb the route, and I though what the heck, I'll give it a try. I fell a few times and rested a bit while hanging on the rope, but I could do all the moves after a few attempts.
Later, I realized that jumping up to a higher grade is partly do to pull up training (I can do 9-10 now, up from 3-4 when I started doing them last fall), but probably has more to do with technique. On this particular climb, I used laybacking, side pulls, and high stepping techniques, and a couple one and two finger locks and jams that I simply could not have performed last fall after my first real season of climbing.
So, considering my recent experience, my suggestion for others and myself is to just get on more harder routes and work them. It seems like on every climb I do I learn something new. Falling a lot on top rope on the same move sucks sometimes, but thats were I learn the most about technique. In addition to that, getting physicaly stronger has also helped me a lot.
Carl
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jt512
Jun 26, 2006, 8:22 PM
Post #63 of 66
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In reply to: This whole thing started because I posted that my biggest weakness is strength and not technique.
No. It started because you said your biggest weaknesses were your biceps and triceps. If that were true, then you would be able to make great gains in your climbing simply by doing biceps curls and triceps extensions as training, which is patently ridiculous. Your whole focus on "pulling" to climb overhanging routes suggests that you seriously misunderstand the mechanics of climbing.
Jay
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jt512
Jun 26, 2006, 8:23 PM
Post #64 of 66
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In reply to: This whole thing started because I posted that my biggest weakness is strength and not technique.
No. It started because you said your biggest weaknesses were your biceps and triceps. If that were true, then you would be able to make great gains in your climbing simply by doing biceps curls and triceps extensions as training, which is patently ridiculous. Your whole focus on "pulling" to climb overhanging routes suggests that you seriously misunderstand the mechanics of climbing.
Jay
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artm
Jun 26, 2006, 8:47 PM
Post #65 of 66
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In reply to: In reply to: This whole thing started because I posted that my biggest weakness is strength and not technique. No. It started because you said your biggest weaknesses were your biceps and triceps. If that were true, then you would be able to make great gains in your climbing simply by doing biceps curls and triceps extensions as training, which is patently ridiculous. Your whole focus on "pulling" to climb overhanging routes suggests that you seriously misunderstand the mechanics of climbing. Jay
I quit lifting weights and dropped 8 pounds of mostly upper body mass in muscle and concentrated on my technique a lot more.
This resulted in no apparent lack of power that I can detect but did allow me to begin breaking into the 11's (trad and sport).
In fact I feel like I have more power/strength than previously.
My technique on the other hand is still in need of constant improvement.
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sick_climba
Jun 27, 2006, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This whole thing started because I posted that my biggest weakness is strength and not technique. No. It started because you said your biggest weaknesses were your biceps and triceps. If that were true, then you would be able to make great gains in your climbing simply by doing biceps curls and triceps extensions as training, which is patently ridiculous. Your whole focus on "pulling" to climb overhanging routes suggests that you seriously misunderstand the mechanics of climbing. Jay Hmmm. I quit lifting weights and dropped 8 pounds of mostly upper body mass in muscle and concentrated on my technique a lot more. This resulted in no apparent lack of power that I can detect but did allow me to begin breaking into the 11's (trad and sport). In fact I feel like I have more power/strength than previously. My technique on the other hand is still in need of constant improvement.
Good luck
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