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stefanohatari
Feb 6, 2007, 10:44 PM
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nthusiastj wrote: Yeah, Steve. You should probably find a good safehouse.
Not even necessary. Everybody seems to understand, most of the time. I try to make myself as small as possible, and if it isn't enough, well, they shoulda gotten up earlier!
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 10:57 PM
Post #27 of 121
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Maybe you should view it as a lost opportunity. Your people probably could have learned a lot more about teamwork by stepping aside and watching those guys, and you could have deftly turned adversity into opportunity, like all the suits say to do.
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 11:03 PM
Post #29 of 121
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Naaaah. I escaped from my cubicle years ago and never looked back. Just trying to be helpful, ultimately.
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
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BTW, where were you climbing at Power_Tie? I know the Bay Area climbing spots pretty well, and I can't think of one that conforms to your description. It's actually a bit difficult to find good beginner climbs around here. The only place that sounds sort of like where you went was Castle Rock State Park. Another good place to do this sort of thing is at the climbing gyms. They are usually centrally located, beginners are catered to by staff, and the top ropes are WAY easier to set up.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM)
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dharmatreez
Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
Post #31 of 121
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climbers attitudes vary greatly
within a few days i ran into climbers we shared gear and lines with, a group we worked with to stay out of each others way, and some that were snobs and line hogs
my partner and i were at a crag when two others stumbled in, good guys, very friendly and talkative, when they climbed to the top of the sport boulder and seen we had dedicated a stat line to bail (large free-standing block) they simple asked if we minded if they used it too. "of course" was the reply without hesitation. it ended up being a better day cause they showed up, we got to share beta, talk with huge smiles about places we want to go, and had someone else to bitch with about a few homemade hangers we found, i'm sure if it was a top rope area (instead of sport) we would have been sharing ropes and set ups
on a multiday last fall, our group of 5 was staying at a cabin at the base of a crag in southcentral PA, as we were finishing up setting up a top rope climb, a group of 3 came to the wall, and without saying a word, proceeded to set up ropes on three climbs (they were only on one at a time with only 3 people), as we passed on the trail up and down the wall, i tried to say hi and start a coversation with them, but only got one look and no verbal response, a "hey, you guys wanna use the ropes we are not on, go ahead", while it would have been nice (since we had only one rope and a "large" group), was of course not required, but at least a brief discussion to time-share the lines should have been had and not led to a weird feeling of "just stay away from them"
now two days later we were at a different crag in the area, we left the trailhead just ahead of a climber packing up, half way up the trail we ran into another climber that said hi and asked us if we had seen anyone in the parking lot, she told us their plans for the day ( to rig up a tyrolean traverse and rappel lines for and Outward Bound program), so when we got to the top of the crag, we waited for him to get there and had a nice talk about what areas he was going to use, and he even directed us to lines (and grades) that wouldn't interfere with him and the kids and would suit our climbing, i guess we could have been dicks and ran up the hill, picked a line and say damn the kids, but none of us even thought about it, but the climbers we ran into less than 20 miles away at the other crag, probably would have
i know in PA in some of the State Forests, large groups (such as Outward Bound programs) can (not sure if required) to register with the district office, a call to them can let you know before you even get to the crag if there will be a large group using it and therefore you could prepare for such "problems" and not find out when you get there, which after a long drive and a plan in your head, can be turned upside down and pull out some emotions in you that you might regret
there will always be chill cats and royal asses at the crag, just try to be the one that makes it fun and safe for everyone to climb
happy trails and safe climbing
jason
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 12:00 AM
Post #32 of 121
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In reply to: They were fairly rude, and tried to give me lip about how leading climbs has some sort of right of way over top rope climbs. At that point I told them they were no longer free to use our top ropes.
This used to be true.
In reply to: They moved off to climb something else, but I do feel a little bad I lost my cool. I am sure something could have been worked out, but they were very rude and confrontational, and I was trying to conduct a business exercise with my employees.
Maybe they honed in on the gumbieness coming from your "business exercise" and had a shark like kill reaction  At the crag doing "business excercises" WTF? How lame is that? 
Seriously though, you did right by offering the tr's, you did wrong by not letting them lead, they did wrong by copping attitude as did you.
I'd like to hear the other side of the story though, since you are probably building it up in your favor, as do MOST people.
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112
Feb 7, 2007, 12:08 AM
Post #33 of 121
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There are no rules!
As long as you are comfortable climbing over, through, and around other climbs and their gear, you should not allow the fact that someone else is on the route to stop you from climbing it!
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pylonhead
Feb 7, 2007, 12:41 AM
Post #34 of 121
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Power Tie,
You seem pretty reasonable. If you rope up a bunch of top rope only problems and offer to share your ropes, what more could people ask for.
As you say, in retrospect, you realized you could have offered to let the people lead with your rope, or reset your rope after climbing. This would have been friendly.
My take: It's first come first serve. So you were in the right.
But some people are dicks about this. I was climbing at the local crag, and two guys had brought out about eight of their friends for a top-roping session on a lead climbing wall. Mind you, there is a top-rope only wall about 20 minutes away.
They picked out the two 5.9s in the area, were standing in front of them, but hadn't yet put up any gear. I had hoped to warm up on them, and I walked up to see what the deal was.
The guy stepped between me an the wall and said, "We've got these two climbs through the afternoon."
I was pretty non-plussed by the attitude. If they had tried to be accommodating in any way, it would have gone a long way.
I imagine that some of the people here have had similar experiences.
As it was, I had a good day anyway, finding some new climbs I hadn't tried before.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2007, 12:51 AM
Post #35 of 121
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I think gym climbers should stay in the gym.
45 foot crack, 4 routes hogged all morning, rope owner can't be bothered to move his rope, ropes hanging there for 10 minutes at a time with no one doing cock all...
THAT'S BULLSHIT!
Take your management class back to the gym where it belongs. You owe that team a 6-pack and a huge apology. WAY_OUT_OF_LINE.
DMT
post edit - this sort of thing happens at the Grotto frequently. The common practice for those who want to lead is that the TR gets pulled and the leader or 2nd on the subsequent team puts it back.
(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 7, 2007, 12:57 AM)
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erisspirit
Feb 7, 2007, 12:55 AM
Post #36 of 121
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Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
You received many well thought out and logical replies. Just because two people had attitude in a response over the internet doesn't make all climbers jerks, nor gives you an excuse to be a jerk to any climber you meet... A lot of us are really nice and respectful people.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2007, 12:59 AM
Post #37 of 121
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erisspirit wrote: Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok. You received many well thought out and logical replies. Just because two people had attitude in a response over the internet doesn't make all climbers jerks, nor gives you an excuse to be a jerk to any climber you meet... A lot of us are really nice and respectful people.
He WAS being inconsiderate. Inconsiderate = dick. One dick deserves another, they attract each other as a matter of fact. Going around acting like a dick is a sure fire way to find more dicks.
DMT
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erisspirit
Feb 7, 2007, 1:07 AM
Post #38 of 121
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dingus wrote: He WAS being inconsiderate. Inconsiderate = dick. One dick deserves another, they attract each other as a matter of fact. Going around acting like a dick is a sure fire way to find more dicks. DMT
I'm not debating the actions of the event in question... I'm only saying that the well so-and-so was a jerk so its ok if i am is extremely idiotic
My opinion on the event itself has been expressed by other people... Just was bothered by his stereotyping
** Edit to try and be clear... I'm not so premium with the debatey like convo 
(This post was edited by erisspirit on Feb 7, 2007, 1:11 AM)
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flamer
Feb 7, 2007, 1:22 AM
Post #39 of 121
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112 wrote: There are no rules! As long as you are comfortable climbing over, through, and around other climbs and their gear, you should not allow the fact that someone else is on the route to stop you from climbing it!
It's ok. You can admit it. We won't hold it against you...well maybe not.
YOU'RE FRENCH AREN'T YOU?????
josh
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majid_sabet
Feb 7, 2007, 1:45 AM
Post #41 of 121
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I done it with group of 35 and by far more complex that you were trying to do and this is my input.
Crag belongs to every one therefore every climber has the right to use the area base on first come and first climb however taking the whole place to yourself will not protect you under first come first serve climbing laws unless you have an specific scheduled training where public members are involved such as ( Rangers, police, trail resource crew etc).Even then, you have to place a sign or a flayer ahead of time to warn that there will be large group activates in such places so dirtbag does not have to hike an hour from the parking lot to his favorite climbing spot to see you with 4 ropes. At least they know that there is large group of people participating in whatever therefore they can think of plan B.
In many cases, you have to let the local park ranger know about your large class cause dirtbag could legally complain and stop you from taken over the crag cause it is a public land and it belongs to every one.
I would suggest, leave a large red flayer on the parking lot or the beginning of the trail to warn others that there is a large group activity and if they showed up, you still have to work it out cause they own it as much as you do.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 2:21 AM
Post #42 of 121
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majid_sabet wrote: I done it with group of 35 and by far more complex that you were trying to do and this is my input. blah blah blah blah
Also translates to:
- I am smarter than you because I can handle a group of 35
- I am superior because mine was way more complex
"VALUE MY INPUT DAMMIT...I AM MAJID!!"
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 2:26 AM
Post #43 of 121
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Power_Tie:
For future reff pull your top rope and let them lead the route. Just ask them if second could haul your top roping rope up and put it back thru your anchor.
With this set up you will keep your cool and you will not be pissing people off.
Lets not forget that some of us have to drive quite far to lead our projects.
Thanks, I'm done.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 2:31 AM
Post #44 of 121
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This is fucked:
In reply to: I was leading a team of 10, doing team building for my management group.
Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. This guy has posted other threads asking about what gear he should get since he's new to climbing. And your "leading" a group at the crags? Quit now before you kill some one. Do these people know you don't have a fucking clue?
I hope you had a guide. I can only assume that you did not since you were "leading" them. If there was one, I would also assume he would have handled the whole sharing situation.
Blind following the blind.
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 2:54 AM
Post #45 of 121
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kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron.
Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to.
How mature, grow the fack up.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 3:08 AM
Post #46 of 121
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tradrenn wrote: kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to. How mature, grow the fack up.
Well I could sugar coat it and be all fake and run around the issue, or I can say my real opinion. I'll choose the latter every time. Some people can't handle that...oh well.
...and fuck is spelled with a "u" 
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 3:10 AM
Post #47 of 121
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kman wrote: tradrenn wrote: kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to. How mature, grow the fack up. Well I could sugar coat it and be all fake and run around the issue, or I can say my real opinion. I'll choose the latter every time. Some people can't handle that...oh well. ...and fuck is spelled with a "u"
I spell it fack this days, just so you know.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 3:38 AM
Post #48 of 121
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You are right though. I would probably get my point across better if I avoided personal insults, after all it only makes the person defensive which accomplishes nothing in the end.
Perhaps instead of "you are a complete fucking moron" I could instead write some thing more along the lines of "you are endagering the lives of people that are putting their trust in your (lack of) skill and knowledge...."
Also, in the future when calling some one a moron, I will use more care when using your and you're 
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jt512
Feb 7, 2007, 5:05 AM
Post #49 of 121
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I haven't read all the responses, but J_ung is correct that there is no simple one-sentence answer to your question. It All Depends (tm). Nevertheless, the practice that you engaged in is commonly referred to - not kindly - as "gang-roping"; and, suffice it to say, that if you were tying up popular, leadable routes at a crowded crag on a weekend, then you were in the wrong. There is almost never any reason to hold these sort of group outings with newbies on popular routes. Either pick a less crowded area, a less crowded day, less crowded routes, or preferable all of the above. If you absolutely must tie-up popular lead routes, then you should be willing to pull your top ropes to allow anyone wishing to lead the routes to do so. If you are willing to do that, then you will usually find that the other parties are willing to put your top ropes back up for you when they are finished with the route.
Jay
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jt512
Feb 7, 2007, 5:13 AM
Post #50 of 121
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a.a. wrote: You have priority if you got there first; however, if you were hogging all of the good climbs in an area that would be bad form. One Saturday morning a friend and I went over to climb CS Concerto in the Valley and there was a group that had set up TR’s on the first pitch of every single multi-pitch climb at Manure Pile! Then the leader of the group came over and said he might be able to squeeze us in at some point. I don’t think I was particularly rude, I didn’t demand to get on the climb right then, but I made it clear we were getting on our climb that morning.
There is no excuse for tying up a single popular multi-pitch trad route with a toprope on the first pitch, much less every route on the formation. You would have been completely justified in pulling their rope, and leading the route.
Jay
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