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Power_Tie
Feb 6, 2007, 7:54 PM
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Hi there,
I had an etiquette question about occupying climbs.
I went to an outdoor climbing area last weekend, and with some help, set up 4 top ropes that were all close together. I was leading a team of 10, doing team building for my management group.
An hour later, a couple other climbers showed up, and began to complain about us hogging routes! We were friendly, and offered to let them use our top ropes, but they wanted to lead climb the routes, and I did not want our top ropes pulled down, since reestablishing them would be a hassle.
They were fairly rude, and tried to give me lip about how leading climbs has some sort of right of way over top rope climbs. At that point I told them they were no longer free to use our top ropes.
They moved off to climb something else, but I do feel a little bad I lost my cool. I am sure something could have been worked out, but they were very rude and confrontational, and I was trying to conduct a business exercise with my employees.
I am pretty sure I was in the right, I can't see how it would make sense that I got there first, and then someone else can show up and demand I remove my top rope because they are going to lead it.
Is this a common climber rule?
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keithlester
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Feb 6, 2007, 8:01 PM
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Its bad form to take up what were probably the four most popular routes on the crag. If you had a group of ten on team-building, how could you supervise them on all four routes at one time anyway? I'd say you were rude too, by leaving a rope on a route and not actually climbing it, otherwise how did you manage to offer your ropes to the other guys to climb on? Bad etiquette in a popular area. Just my 2c, but most trad climbers would be likely to agree.
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reg
Feb 6, 2007, 8:07 PM
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probably wasn't cool to loose it in front of the team building class. did they cover your back? neither was the other climbers reaction. when i am confronted with that situation (tr's in the way) i just lead around them - i mean do the route and just push them out of the way when they interfere. you should have tried to pull them over so maybe they would not interfere or could you have climbed to the ledge and pulled them up if it came to that. easy enough to put um back and rap down. i do find it obnoxious to see a bunch of lines "taken" when i get to a crag. often i'll use others ropes when invited, but i always chk their anchors. etiquette? i don't know that answer. i think they were blowin smoke about leading taking precedence.
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j_ung
Feb 6, 2007, 8:08 PM
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It's a pretty complex question, actually, and you're likely to hear a lot of conflicting opinions. Obviously, some climbers feel that leading takes precedence over toproping. Maybe in questions of style, but that doesn't negate the fact that you did the work to get there first. However, I don't think it's fair of you to monopolize any single climb for an entire day, especially if it's a popular climb. But then, you were willing to work with them so they could climb it, too. And they were rude. See? Nuances.
There are ways to compromise in such cases. Consider pulling the ropes aside, not down, next time so they can also climb the route in their chosen style without inconveniencing your group. Or, consider enacting a policy of not staying in one place all day. It's helpful to set aside half the day for climbing and half for rappelling -- it introduces some variety to the day and keeps you from hogging routes. Or better yet, find a place to guide that isn't in the guidebook. Even in crowded areas, you ought to be able to find something that fits the bill. First-time climbers don't need pristine stone to have a great experience. When I guided, I spent several days a year wandering the woods looking for cliffline I could use and that wasn't in anybody else's way. I found a whole slew of such areas.
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granite_grrl
Feb 6, 2007, 8:08 PM
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Sticky situation.
I would say in general, first come first serve, but there has to be an understanding between multiple groups of climbers that all want on the same route.
You did good by offering them a ride, but I understand why they may have wanted to lead it instead of TR. I have asked to step in and lead a route that a group was occupying, and to be honest I've only been denied once.
But if you're gracious enough to offer them to climb through they could have either tried to lead the route with your top rope up, or asked to pull your rope but offer to take it back up and set it up for you again. Mind you I have always done this with trad climbs and I'm pretty used to climbing with a tag line while placing gear.
If they were just jerks who wanted you out of the area then they are just jerks, and there's nothing to be done about that.
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dominic7
Feb 6, 2007, 8:12 PM
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You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?"
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dlintz
Feb 6, 2007, 8:15 PM
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dominic7 wrote: You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?"
LOL! Excellent!
d.
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a.a.
Feb 6, 2007, 8:20 PM
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You have priority if you got there first; however, if you were hogging all of the good climbs in an area that would be bad form. One Saturday morning a friend and I went over to climb CS Concerto in the Valley and there was a group that had set up TR’s on the first pitch of every single multi-pitch climb at Manure Pile! Then the leader of the group came over and said he might be able to squeeze us in at some point. I don’t think I was particularly rude, I didn’t demand to get on the climb right then, but I made it clear we were getting on our climb that morning.
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redpoint73
Feb 6, 2007, 8:20 PM
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The most useful rule is "be cool to others". Most of the time, people are reasonable with each other and can work things out w/o having to resort to climbing rules. Even so, there is no "leader takes precedent over TR" rule in any region I have climbed. I can see isolated instances where a team may want to head up a multi-pitch route, and a big group has a TR setup at the first belay point. In that case, it would make sense to let the leader go. But even then, there is no hard and fast rule.
I have seen big groups become a problem at crags. Very often, there are ropes that go unused for long periods of time, which is in bad style. 4 ropes for 10 people is totally reasonable. But even so, with a guided group it almost inevitable that ropes will go idle. Either there will not be enough competent belayers, the clients will want to watch/listen to the guide to pick up tips, or some of the clients will get tired and stop climbing, etc. I've seen it countless times: a big guided group throws up a few ropes, and some of them end up being idle for literally hours while the entire group ends up using 1 or 2 ropes at a time.
I'm not saying this was necessarily true with your group, but its something to be aware of and strive to avoid. Also, the other group may have had a bad experience with big guided groups hogging routes, so maybe they already had some preconceived frustration.
In general, its best to climb the route, then pull your rope and move on as soon as possible. Unfortunately, that philosophy usually doesn't work for commercial/guided/school groups.
Why do you say that pulling the TR rope, then having to put it up would be a hassle? It would be easy as pie. Even if we are talking trad routes: If the other group was doing it leader/follower style, the follower can just trail your rope as he cleans, and put it back on your anchor when he tops out. If the leader intended on cleaning as he lowered, he can just lower off your TR anchor. Then you can just tape the end of your rope to the end of his and pull it through the anchor. Obviously, some of this depends on where the anchor point is. But the moral of the story is that there are plenty of easy methods that would have allowed you to put the TR back up in a matter of a couple minutes.
It doesn't appear that you were in the wrong based on your story. But the other group may have a different perception. In any case, there were a few things you could have done different that may or may not have resulted in a happier ending.
(This post was edited by redpoint73 on Feb 6, 2007, 8:27 PM)
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 8:24 PM
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I don't see any nuance. If you had a climber on every rope then they were out of luck, but if you weren't using the ropes you had no right to leave them up just to save your place. Screw that, they had a right to get rude because you were [already] being a dick.
(This post was edited by cintune on Feb 6, 2007, 8:26 PM)
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jamatt
Feb 6, 2007, 8:28 PM
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From the 2004 AMGA TRSM "Best Practice" guidelines:
Reduce the number in your group as much as possible. Plan your trips on weekdays, not weekends.
Only set up the couple of climbs that you are using. Don't set up your climbs for the whole day all at once and monopolize your area. Lead climbers have right of way over top ropes.
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climbsomething
Feb 6, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: Is this a common climber rule?
Based on your post, neither one of you was in the right, nor clearly in the wrong.
I don't subscribe to leaders taking precedence over topropers simply because leading is more badass, especially since you were there first. Still, they clearly wanted to lead, so I can see why offering them the TRs was rebuffed. I don't think that should have really surprised you (did it?).
We know nothing about the crag. Were these single-pitch lines, or the first pitch of multi-pitch lines? What were the anchors like? Bolted? Tree? Easily reached by hiking up and reaching over a lip? Gear only, and limited to the pieces you had already placed? Does this still mean they couldn't have used your anchor set up anyway? Was the anchor such that they couldn't have pulled your rope, led, and trailed your line and replaced it?
Since nobody here was there, and naturally your POV is biased to defend your position, we'll never really know why the attitudes turned south, which is the critical link here.
In general, share the crag. Neither party could end up doing that that day. As such, both parties were probably a little wrong and a little right.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Feb 6, 2007, 8:40 PM)
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mtnjohn
Feb 6, 2007, 9:08 PM
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I've pulled hanging top opes out of my way before and will again. I you (anyone in your group) is using them or will be SOON I move on or wait. If the rope is left waiting for you to finish other things, I'll pull it, lead the route and offer to trail your rope and reset the TR when we've finished.
Hijacking four routes is pretty rude. It's hard to beleive that's not obvious to everyone.
(This post was edited by mtnjohn on Feb 6, 2007, 9:09 PM)
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jakedatc
Feb 6, 2007, 9:18 PM
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mtnjohn wrote: I've pulled hanging top opes out of my way before and will again. I you (anyone in your group) is using them or will be SOON I move on or wait. If the rope is left waiting for you to finish other things, I'll pull it, lead the route and offer to trail your rope and reset the TR when we've finished. Hijacking four routes is pretty rude. It's hard to beleive that's not obvious to everyone.
I agree. Groups that will be there a long time should let people lead through and replace their TR afterwards. Think... they will be on it for a very short time and you have 3 other lines to play on while they do so. Would you have had to lead the route to put the TR back up again or is this a place thats top accessible? Lead: they trail a rope and put yours back up.. Top: WALK YOUR ASS UP AND DROP YOUR ROPE AGAIN LAZY BASTARD
I would have been pissed at you too..
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olderic
Feb 6, 2007, 9:23 PM
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climbsomething wrote: I don't subscribe to leaders taking precedence over topropers simply because leading is more badass
That's the dead horse that has been kicked ad infintum. That leading doesn't take precedence is probably the prevailing attitude (despite the AMGA suggestion referenced earlier) by the majority of today's folks. But it certainly wasn't the prevailing attitude not that long ago. But "climbing" today caters to the homogonized dumbed down view so I'm not surprised.
One point I would make though regards the land this was done on. It would seem that your's was a commercial use - whoever has jurisdiction - whether it's public or private - probably has established guidelines regarding commercial use. Usually, not always, such guidelines give priority to recreations (over commercial) use.
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d1ll1gaf
Feb 6, 2007, 9:24 PM
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IMHO the first group to get to a climb has priority, even if that group is top-ropping and expects to be there all day (with no unused ropes), with some obvious exceptions:
- If the area has a "No Top Rope" ethic
- The group should not be occupying ALL the climbs at the craig, or even all the climbs of a particular grade.
Politness dictates that if you are going to be on a route all day, give other climbers who want to get up and down it once priority over your group. This could either involve letting the other climbers use your rope (heck if it was me I would even offer to belay) or moving your ropes out of the way so that the the other climbers can lead (simple action, grab rope and walk along sideways until the rope is out of the way).
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Power_Tie
Feb 6, 2007, 9:25 PM
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Well! Some pretty interesting responses, thank you for your perspectives.
First, some background questions. My four ropes were on adjacent climbs. 3 were on faces and designated 'TR only' in the guide and the fourth rope was on a 5.9 crack. All four topropes had bolted anchors. The climbs were all short, about 45' each.
The other climbers wanted to lead the crack climb. In retrospect, it probably would have been possible to pull my top rope to the side, and let them lead on up it. But they were insistent that they had to pull my rope. I feel foolish, but it did not occur to me to let them lead the crack route with my rope, or to pull my rope up to reestablish the top rope after their lead.
Also, none of the top ropes were idle for more than 10 minutes at a time, which I do not feel is unreasonable, as I see climbers sitting below climbs all the time. And I offered to let the other climbers use the top rope while there was actually someone climbing it, if they would just wait until she finished her turn.
I am sorry that things kind of went south when I was confronted with their attitude, that they could just walk right up to climbs we were using, and pull my rope down just because they intended to lead it. That, and they didn't seem to think we belonged there because some of the people it was their first time climbing and were hanging on the rope quite a bit. Like everyone is so great their first time.
But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
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lena_chita
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Feb 6, 2007, 9:31 PM
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Gray zone, IMO.
I have been in those situations before, but it never came to rudeness. Solutions that usually work:
If the group has a rope up, but nobody is climbing it, I usually offer to pull it, lead on my rope, and then put their rope back up when I am done. No one has ever objected to that, and plenty of people have offered the same to us.
Sometimes people offer their rope for climbing ,but I'm not too keen to accept that. I don't know hte history of that rope, I prefer to climb with my own rope or the ropes of my friends. But I also do sometimes offer other people a turn on our rope, if the top-rope is up and they want to top-rope, and it is usually accepted, so not everyone is as paranoid about it as I am.
I'm guessing that those were easy(er) and popular climbs that you have occupied.
BUT-- if your people were continuously climbing on those ropes, then the other guys didn't have the right to ask to climb. Most likely though, you had 4 ropes up, but not every one of them was occupied b/c most of your "climbers" were standing around saying that they needed to 'rest some" before climbing again. And THAT gets very annoying.
Esp if the routes you wanted to climb are staked out by a group of 10-- which effectively means, if all 10 of them climb that route, it is going to take most of the day. Realistically for a group of 10 newbies, 3 top-ropes are plenty. If each person gets to do 3 climbs, that's 30 climbs total, more than enough for a day, and it leaves plenty of time for chatting, cheering and team-building.
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 9:42 PM
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"Welcome to the employee rock-climbing seminar. You'll learn valuable teamwork skills by doing dangerous things unrelated to your jobs." - Dilbert
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stefanohatari
Feb 6, 2007, 9:42 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: you climbers
I suspect this piece of attitude may be part of the problem.
I lead lots of groups in popular areas for a commercial company, and saw lots of good advice here about how to get along.
One thing to note: many reputable guide services will not allow their guides to share their anchors with other climbers.
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nthusiastj
Feb 6, 2007, 10:22 PM
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dlintz wrote: dominic7 wrote: You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?" LOL! Excellent! d.
Kinda like the rumble scene in "Anchorman".
Yeah, Steve. You should probably find a good safehouse.
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sidepull
Feb 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
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I think people have offered some solutions that may have diffused the situation and for the most part this thread has had a pretty constructive tone.
I've never heard that someone leading takes precedence over toproping - and frankly I find it elitist and seems to have nothing to do with "dumbing down" or homogenizing climbing. I've always practiced a "first come first serve" approach but, I also try to be as nice and accomodating as possible. For example, a lot of times climbers will show up and just stand there like orphaned puppies looking at the route your on. I'm often the one that says "hey, do you guys want to get on this? I've got one more go and then my partner was going to take a burn and then it's yours." Or, I'll approach other climbers and say, "hey, how long do you guys think you'll be on this?" Also, if I know I'm on a popular route I try to be on and off as fast as possible or choose a low traffic time - it's just courtesy. As someone else said, the point is to be cool, be nice, be approachable.
It seems like the OP did most of this. It seems like, had he thought about letting them trail a rope then there wouldn't have been a situation per se. However, this bothers me a bit:
Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
I guess I'm super sympathetic to the OP's position until I see that he seems to have a pretty short fuse. Sure, the internet isn't the real world and this is only a very marginal piece of data, but there are a lot of pent up stereotypes and "me vs. you" attitude displayed in this hyperbolic reaction. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2007, 10:39 PM
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Geez, Mr. Tie, there's your problem; you took a perfectly good thing like climbing and fucked it up by bringing something horrible like work into it.
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stefanohatari
Feb 6, 2007, 10:44 PM
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nthusiastj wrote: Yeah, Steve. You should probably find a good safehouse.
Not even necessary. Everybody seems to understand, most of the time. I try to make myself as small as possible, and if it isn't enough, well, they shoulda gotten up earlier!
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 10:57 PM
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Maybe you should view it as a lost opportunity. Your people probably could have learned a lot more about teamwork by stepping aside and watching those guys, and you could have deftly turned adversity into opportunity, like all the suits say to do.
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 11:03 PM
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Naaaah. I escaped from my cubicle years ago and never looked back. Just trying to be helpful, ultimately.
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
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BTW, where were you climbing at Power_Tie? I know the Bay Area climbing spots pretty well, and I can't think of one that conforms to your description. It's actually a bit difficult to find good beginner climbs around here. The only place that sounds sort of like where you went was Castle Rock State Park. Another good place to do this sort of thing is at the climbing gyms. They are usually centrally located, beginners are catered to by staff, and the top ropes are WAY easier to set up.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM)
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dharmatreez
Feb 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
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climbers attitudes vary greatly
within a few days i ran into climbers we shared gear and lines with, a group we worked with to stay out of each others way, and some that were snobs and line hogs
my partner and i were at a crag when two others stumbled in, good guys, very friendly and talkative, when they climbed to the top of the sport boulder and seen we had dedicated a stat line to bail (large free-standing block) they simple asked if we minded if they used it too. "of course" was the reply without hesitation. it ended up being a better day cause they showed up, we got to share beta, talk with huge smiles about places we want to go, and had someone else to bitch with about a few homemade hangers we found, i'm sure if it was a top rope area (instead of sport) we would have been sharing ropes and set ups
on a multiday last fall, our group of 5 was staying at a cabin at the base of a crag in southcentral PA, as we were finishing up setting up a top rope climb, a group of 3 came to the wall, and without saying a word, proceeded to set up ropes on three climbs (they were only on one at a time with only 3 people), as we passed on the trail up and down the wall, i tried to say hi and start a coversation with them, but only got one look and no verbal response, a "hey, you guys wanna use the ropes we are not on, go ahead", while it would have been nice (since we had only one rope and a "large" group), was of course not required, but at least a brief discussion to time-share the lines should have been had and not led to a weird feeling of "just stay away from them"
now two days later we were at a different crag in the area, we left the trailhead just ahead of a climber packing up, half way up the trail we ran into another climber that said hi and asked us if we had seen anyone in the parking lot, she told us their plans for the day ( to rig up a tyrolean traverse and rappel lines for and Outward Bound program), so when we got to the top of the crag, we waited for him to get there and had a nice talk about what areas he was going to use, and he even directed us to lines (and grades) that wouldn't interfere with him and the kids and would suit our climbing, i guess we could have been dicks and ran up the hill, picked a line and say damn the kids, but none of us even thought about it, but the climbers we ran into less than 20 miles away at the other crag, probably would have
i know in PA in some of the State Forests, large groups (such as Outward Bound programs) can (not sure if required) to register with the district office, a call to them can let you know before you even get to the crag if there will be a large group using it and therefore you could prepare for such "problems" and not find out when you get there, which after a long drive and a plan in your head, can be turned upside down and pull out some emotions in you that you might regret
there will always be chill cats and royal asses at the crag, just try to be the one that makes it fun and safe for everyone to climb
happy trails and safe climbing
jason
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 12:00 AM
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In reply to: They were fairly rude, and tried to give me lip about how leading climbs has some sort of right of way over top rope climbs. At that point I told them they were no longer free to use our top ropes.
This used to be true.
In reply to: They moved off to climb something else, but I do feel a little bad I lost my cool. I am sure something could have been worked out, but they were very rude and confrontational, and I was trying to conduct a business exercise with my employees.
Maybe they honed in on the gumbieness coming from your "business exercise" and had a shark like kill reaction  At the crag doing "business excercises" WTF? How lame is that? 
Seriously though, you did right by offering the tr's, you did wrong by not letting them lead, they did wrong by copping attitude as did you.
I'd like to hear the other side of the story though, since you are probably building it up in your favor, as do MOST people.
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112
Feb 7, 2007, 12:08 AM
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There are no rules!
As long as you are comfortable climbing over, through, and around other climbs and their gear, you should not allow the fact that someone else is on the route to stop you from climbing it!
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pylonhead
Feb 7, 2007, 12:41 AM
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Power Tie,
You seem pretty reasonable. If you rope up a bunch of top rope only problems and offer to share your ropes, what more could people ask for.
As you say, in retrospect, you realized you could have offered to let the people lead with your rope, or reset your rope after climbing. This would have been friendly.
My take: It's first come first serve. So you were in the right.
But some people are dicks about this. I was climbing at the local crag, and two guys had brought out about eight of their friends for a top-roping session on a lead climbing wall. Mind you, there is a top-rope only wall about 20 minutes away.
They picked out the two 5.9s in the area, were standing in front of them, but hadn't yet put up any gear. I had hoped to warm up on them, and I walked up to see what the deal was.
The guy stepped between me an the wall and said, "We've got these two climbs through the afternoon."
I was pretty non-plussed by the attitude. If they had tried to be accommodating in any way, it would have gone a long way.
I imagine that some of the people here have had similar experiences.
As it was, I had a good day anyway, finding some new climbs I hadn't tried before.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2007, 12:51 AM
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I think gym climbers should stay in the gym.
45 foot crack, 4 routes hogged all morning, rope owner can't be bothered to move his rope, ropes hanging there for 10 minutes at a time with no one doing cock all...
THAT'S BULLSHIT!
Take your management class back to the gym where it belongs. You owe that team a 6-pack and a huge apology. WAY_OUT_OF_LINE.
DMT
post edit - this sort of thing happens at the Grotto frequently. The common practice for those who want to lead is that the TR gets pulled and the leader or 2nd on the subsequent team puts it back.
(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 7, 2007, 12:57 AM)
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erisspirit
Feb 7, 2007, 12:55 AM
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Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
You received many well thought out and logical replies. Just because two people had attitude in a response over the internet doesn't make all climbers jerks, nor gives you an excuse to be a jerk to any climber you meet... A lot of us are really nice and respectful people.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2007, 12:59 AM
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erisspirit wrote: Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok. You received many well thought out and logical replies. Just because two people had attitude in a response over the internet doesn't make all climbers jerks, nor gives you an excuse to be a jerk to any climber you meet... A lot of us are really nice and respectful people.
He WAS being inconsiderate. Inconsiderate = dick. One dick deserves another, they attract each other as a matter of fact. Going around acting like a dick is a sure fire way to find more dicks.
DMT
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erisspirit
Feb 7, 2007, 1:07 AM
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dingus wrote: He WAS being inconsiderate. Inconsiderate = dick. One dick deserves another, they attract each other as a matter of fact. Going around acting like a dick is a sure fire way to find more dicks. DMT
I'm not debating the actions of the event in question... I'm only saying that the well so-and-so was a jerk so its ok if i am is extremely idiotic
My opinion on the event itself has been expressed by other people... Just was bothered by his stereotyping
** Edit to try and be clear... I'm not so premium with the debatey like convo 
(This post was edited by erisspirit on Feb 7, 2007, 1:11 AM)
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flamer
Feb 7, 2007, 1:22 AM
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112 wrote: There are no rules! As long as you are comfortable climbing over, through, and around other climbs and their gear, you should not allow the fact that someone else is on the route to stop you from climbing it!
It's ok. You can admit it. We won't hold it against you...well maybe not.
YOU'RE FRENCH AREN'T YOU?????
josh
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majid_sabet
Feb 7, 2007, 1:45 AM
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I done it with group of 35 and by far more complex that you were trying to do and this is my input.
Crag belongs to every one therefore every climber has the right to use the area base on first come and first climb however taking the whole place to yourself will not protect you under first come first serve climbing laws unless you have an specific scheduled training where public members are involved such as ( Rangers, police, trail resource crew etc).Even then, you have to place a sign or a flayer ahead of time to warn that there will be large group activates in such places so dirtbag does not have to hike an hour from the parking lot to his favorite climbing spot to see you with 4 ropes. At least they know that there is large group of people participating in whatever therefore they can think of plan B.
In many cases, you have to let the local park ranger know about your large class cause dirtbag could legally complain and stop you from taken over the crag cause it is a public land and it belongs to every one.
I would suggest, leave a large red flayer on the parking lot or the beginning of the trail to warn others that there is a large group activity and if they showed up, you still have to work it out cause they own it as much as you do.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 2:21 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: I done it with group of 35 and by far more complex that you were trying to do and this is my input. blah blah blah blah
Also translates to:
- I am smarter than you because I can handle a group of 35
- I am superior because mine was way more complex
"VALUE MY INPUT DAMMIT...I AM MAJID!!"
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 2:26 AM
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Power_Tie:
For future reff pull your top rope and let them lead the route. Just ask them if second could haul your top roping rope up and put it back thru your anchor.
With this set up you will keep your cool and you will not be pissing people off.
Lets not forget that some of us have to drive quite far to lead our projects.
Thanks, I'm done.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 2:31 AM
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This is fucked:
In reply to: I was leading a team of 10, doing team building for my management group.
Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. This guy has posted other threads asking about what gear he should get since he's new to climbing. And your "leading" a group at the crags? Quit now before you kill some one. Do these people know you don't have a fucking clue?
I hope you had a guide. I can only assume that you did not since you were "leading" them. If there was one, I would also assume he would have handled the whole sharing situation.
Blind following the blind.
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 2:54 AM
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kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron.
Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to.
How mature, grow the fack up.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 3:08 AM
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tradrenn wrote: kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to. How mature, grow the fack up.
Well I could sugar coat it and be all fake and run around the issue, or I can say my real opinion. I'll choose the latter every time. Some people can't handle that...oh well.
...and fuck is spelled with a "u" 
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tradrenn
Feb 7, 2007, 3:10 AM
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kman wrote: tradrenn wrote: kman wrote: Your either a troll or a complete fucking moron. Holy shit man you getting one step further than Dirtineye used to. How mature, grow the fack up. Well I could sugar coat it and be all fake and run around the issue, or I can say my real opinion. I'll choose the latter every time. Some people can't handle that...oh well. ...and fuck is spelled with a "u"
I spell it fack this days, just so you know.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 3:38 AM
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You are right though. I would probably get my point across better if I avoided personal insults, after all it only makes the person defensive which accomplishes nothing in the end.
Perhaps instead of "you are a complete fucking moron" I could instead write some thing more along the lines of "you are endagering the lives of people that are putting their trust in your (lack of) skill and knowledge...."
Also, in the future when calling some one a moron, I will use more care when using your and you're 
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jt512
Feb 7, 2007, 5:05 AM
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I haven't read all the responses, but J_ung is correct that there is no simple one-sentence answer to your question. It All Depends (tm). Nevertheless, the practice that you engaged in is commonly referred to - not kindly - as "gang-roping"; and, suffice it to say, that if you were tying up popular, leadable routes at a crowded crag on a weekend, then you were in the wrong. There is almost never any reason to hold these sort of group outings with newbies on popular routes. Either pick a less crowded area, a less crowded day, less crowded routes, or preferable all of the above. If you absolutely must tie-up popular lead routes, then you should be willing to pull your top ropes to allow anyone wishing to lead the routes to do so. If you are willing to do that, then you will usually find that the other parties are willing to put your top ropes back up for you when they are finished with the route.
Jay
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jt512
Feb 7, 2007, 5:13 AM
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a.a. wrote: You have priority if you got there first; however, if you were hogging all of the good climbs in an area that would be bad form. One Saturday morning a friend and I went over to climb CS Concerto in the Valley and there was a group that had set up TR’s on the first pitch of every single multi-pitch climb at Manure Pile! Then the leader of the group came over and said he might be able to squeeze us in at some point. I don’t think I was particularly rude, I didn’t demand to get on the climb right then, but I made it clear we were getting on our climb that morning.
There is no excuse for tying up a single popular multi-pitch trad route with a toprope on the first pitch, much less every route on the formation. You would have been completely justified in pulling their rope, and leading the route.
Jay
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coastal_climber
Feb 7, 2007, 5:44 AM
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You should have pulled your ropes, and left the anchors for them to rap off of. Hogging four climbs at once is a lot. As said earlier, how were you supposed to manage the teams?
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vertical_planar
Feb 7, 2007, 7:14 AM
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You were blocking routes that you were not climbing. This is bad practice. It is as simple as that.
No grey areas here. If you are not climbing a route you have no right to stop others from doing it
Btw topropping is irrelevant to the question.
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majid_sabet
Feb 7, 2007, 7:15 AM
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kman wrote: You are right though. I would probably get my point across better if I avoided personal insults, after all it only makes the person defensive which accomplishes nothing in the end. Perhaps instead of "you are a complete fucking moron" I could instead write some thing more along the lines of "you are endagering the lives of people that are putting their trust in your (lack of) skill and knowledge...." Also, in the future when calling some one a moron, I will use more care when using your and you're
Kaveman
You got any thing else better to tell people, looks like you just go around and target posts left and right insulting people.
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jonoj
Feb 7, 2007, 7:23 AM
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I don't know how many people checked this up, but....
Power_Tie wrote: I'm a new climber, but I am totally hooked. I can't wait to get out and climb hard core in the summertime. I got a pair of La Sportiva brand shoes, and a wild country brand harness. How much is it going to cost to get all the climbing equipment I need to climb outside when the weather is better? I am thinking I will probably need a couple extra harnesses and pairs of shoes so that I can take someone with me. Thank you.
Posted 16 Jan 2007!!!
Dude, what are you doing taking 10 unsuspecting people out under your 'guidance', when you are this inexperienced??
Either you're trolling, or are in fact a rather big knob!
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bizarrodrinker
Feb 7, 2007, 1:44 PM
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jonoj has the most valid point in this thread. This guy probably should not have had people under his watch in the first place.
On the subject of taking up routes, if it was multi-pitch, which from the OP experience it doesn't sound like it was, they should have moved their ropes. Otherwise whoever said they should pull them up, and let the others rap of their anchors has my vote.
If I was out climbing (even TRing) a route and someone came up, while we wer in the middle of climbing and said they had the right of way because they were going to lead, I would probably say "oh alright" turn away and continue climbing.
Setting up multiple TRs in one area is kind of poor form, but if people really wanted to do the routes, they would make certain that they were the first there in the morning. I know I would.
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Adk
Feb 7, 2007, 2:43 PM
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Others here have offered what I would also suggest. Pull the rope and ask the second to pull your rope back up for your group.
Sure it is a little extra work for them but we all have to give a bit here and there.
Don't be a route whore, whores get bad names quickly and then have no customers....or friends.
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mtnjohn
Feb 7, 2007, 5:15 PM
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I wouldn't just walk up and pull it.
I never said that.
I'd tell you I was going to pull it first.
The context being, if you read my post, that there are three ropes hanging idle.
I don't type novels, my post are brief and may be interpreted as rude. Read anything into it you like.
We all think what we want anyway.
Oh, what is TR only area?
I thought we talking about an outdoor area.
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seanhabgood
Feb 7, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Was the climbs top ropes or long mulity pitch climbs? If it was top rope it is first come first serve as you really don't need to lead climb it. If it is a mulity pitch lead climb you should not be top ropeing it. With that said being a dick is always a bad idea! Sean
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j_ung
Feb 7, 2007, 5:40 PM
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jonoj wrote: I don't know how many people checked this up, but.... Power_Tie wrote: I'm a new climber, but I am totally hooked. I can't wait to get out and climb hard core in the summertime. I got a pair of La Sportiva brand shoes, and a wild country brand harness. How much is it going to cost to get all the climbing equipment I need to climb outside when the weather is better? I am thinking I will probably need a couple extra harnesses and pairs of shoes so that I can take someone with me. Thank you. Posted 16 Jan 2007!!! Dude, what are you doing taking 10 unsuspecting people out under your 'guidance', when you are this inexperienced??
Good God. Is this true?
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Power_Tie
Feb 7, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Well! Quite a colorful collection of responses I have recieved here!
First, I would like to thank everyone who weighed in with some constructive input, even if it was critical of what I was doing. I would like to think I am never above learning. With that said, I think the best way to meet everyone's needs would have been to allow those climbers to lead the crack climb, and then replace my top rope when they had finished.
This practice was beyond my experience at the time. If this had been suggested by the other climbers, I would have happily agreed. I am sorry they did not think to suggest this.
I should probably just leave it at that, but some of the more colorful responses beg a reply.
Some of you seem to think that what we were doing was wrong, and unsafe. These rock climbs were on public land. I have every right to go to this place, and to take my employees with me.
Further, I purchased several guidebooks at REI, and researched differrent areas we could go. This area appeared to be a good area to take beginner climbers, and would be easy to set up top ropes on the climbs. They were all set up on 2 bolts each, with 4 locking carabiners. I had practiced this at home, and read how to do it safely in a book. It isn't exactly rocket science.
Also, every one of my team was trained to belay when we were back at the office in San Francisco, as part of the exercise. We took an hour in the afternoon, and worked on safe belay practices, plus climbing commands and knot tying. We had fun, and it got everyone excited about the outing.
Finally, I think I will respond to some of the ribbing I am taking by a couple internet losers here. kman and dingus come to mind, as getting rather personal with me. I can take that, can they? I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations. You two clowns are probably piling more budweiser cans on the floor complaining about 'the man' or something.
If you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: Kaveman You got any thing else better to tell people, looks like you just go around and target posts left and right insulting people.
Not quite Majid.
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devils_advocate
Feb 7, 2007, 6:09 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: Finally, I think I will respond to some of the ribbing I am taking by a couple internet losers here. kman and dingus come to mind, as getting rather personal with me. I can take that, can they? I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations. You two clowns are probably piling more budweiser cans on the floor complaining about 'the man' or something.
Oh, this is going to get good.
Please tell me, Mr. Executive, what the fuck office life has to do with safe climbing? I love the mentality, yes I work in an office and know your self-inflated egotistical type – I’ve successfully done X and Y, so I can do anything. The same people I have to show basic functions on Excel that they were too stupid (read: lack of common sense and basic problem solving skills) to figure out themselves.
Rocket science? No, it’s not. But there are nuances that are important, that can get you (and others) killed if not abided. If you want to risk your own life fine. But you have no right taking out 10 others unless you have explicitly conveyed to them your lack of experience. I doubt someone as smug as you would have done so. You have a rep in the office... can’t mar that.
In reply to: If you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done.
Yea ok stuffy business man. I'm sure it's fantasies such as this that keep you going. Hate to break it to you: We’re the guy your wife calls after your shiny BMW pulls out of the driveway and your Viagra fueled travesty of lovemaking left her unsatisfied. Again.
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bizarrodrinker
Feb 7, 2007, 6:09 PM
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Touche!
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112
Feb 7, 2007, 6:10 PM
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flamer wrote: It's ok. You can admit it. We won't hold it against you...well maybe not. YOU'RE FRENCH AREN'T YOU?????
Nope.
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Power_Tie
Feb 7, 2007, 6:18 PM
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devils_advocate wrote: Oh, this is going to get good. Please tell me, Mr. Executive, what the fuck office life has to do with safe climbing? I love the mentality, yes I work in an office and know your self-inflated egotistical type – I’ve successfully done X and Y, so I can do anything. The same people I have to show basic functions on Excel that they were too stupid (read: lack of common sense and basic problem solving skills) to figure out themselves.
You teach people how to use Excel? Sounds like a rewarding career.
But I am honored that you felt compelled to join this discussion just to hurl your silly little insults. I am sure you are quite impressed with your wit. Now go teach someone who makes more money than you basic computer functions.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: kman and dingus come to mind, as getting rather personal with me. I can take that, can they? I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations.
Good! Guiding a gym-troupe out of the way of other climbers should be a snap for a guy like you!
DMT
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flamer
Feb 7, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: Finally, I think I will respond to some of the ribbing I am taking by a couple internet losers here.
I always love it when someone says this, in a post on the INTERNET.
But I'm going to save the rest of what i could say to MR. Exec....you guys feel free to do your thing.
josh
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Davey
Feb 7, 2007, 6:33 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: This practice was beyond my experience at the time.
This is a Common sense thing. If you didn't have that kind of sense you hade no right leading something like this.
Power_Tie wrote: Some of you seem to think that what we were doing was wrong, and unsafe. These rock climbs were on public land. I have every right to go to this place, and to take my employees with me.
Power_Tie wrote: Further, I purchased several guidebooks at REI,
Power_Tie wrote: If you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done. devils_advocate wrote: Yea ok stuffy business man. I'm sure it's fantasies such as this that keep you going. Hate to break it to you: We're the guy your wife calls after your shiny BMW pulls out of the driveway and your Viagra fueled travesty of lovemaking left her unsatisfied. Again.
This says it all.
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dharmatreez
Feb 7, 2007, 6:48 PM
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Davey wrote: The reason there is no "An idiot guide to climbing" is because there is no place for idiots in this sport.
unfortunately i have a vague recollection of seeing one of those "Complete Idiot's Guide To..." for climbing in Barnes and Noble while browsing thru the climbing section
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Davey
Feb 7, 2007, 6:50 PM
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dharmatreez wrote: Davey wrote: The reason there is no "An idiot guide to climbing" is because there is no place for idiots in this sport. unfortunately i have a vague recollection of seeing one of those "Complete Idiot's Guide To..." for climbing in Barnes and Noble while browsing thru the climbing section
The beginning of the end my friend. 
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dan2see
Feb 7, 2007, 6:51 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Power_Tie: For future reff pull your top rope and let them lead the route. Just ask them if second could haul your top roping rope up and put it back thru your anchor.
tradrenn wrote: Lets not forget that some of us have to drive quite far to lead our projects. Thanks, I'm done.
When I plan an outing with my friends, we pick a crag before we leave the city. So our expectations are pretty high by the time we get to the rocks.
So I think tradrenn's idea is the best posting in this thread.
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Davey
Feb 7, 2007, 6:56 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: Davey wrote: ... The reason there is no "An idiot guide to climbing" is because there is no place for idiots in this sport... You mean like this? http://www.amazon.com/...imbing/dp/0028631145 [image]http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/0028631145.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/image]
Thank you all I get the point but I hope you get my point.
NO PLACE FOR IDIOTS.
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granite_grrl
Feb 7, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Wow, I leave this thread for a day and look at what its become!!!
Power_tie, I assumed you had experiance when you wrote the OP, it would appear that you do not. If I was out at the crag and some misinformed n00b kept telling me what I can or cannot do I would get pretty pissed.
In the end if you were a little more experianced then you'd understand the flow of the cliff a little better. Maybe you could have actually climbed there once before you brought a group there!
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endercore
Feb 7, 2007, 7:08 PM
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when i guide I make sure we always have someone on the climb and not just hanging a rope.
If you wern't climbing on the particular route you could have let them lead it on their rope and trail up yours... having them reclip it to the anchor when they were done.
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j_ung
Feb 7, 2007, 7:10 PM
Post #78 of 121
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Power_Tie, do you think congestion is the worst a typical guided climbing day has to throw at you?
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trenchdigger
Feb 7, 2007, 7:14 PM
Post #79 of 121
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Davey wrote: Thank you all I get the point but I hope you get my point. NO PLACE FOR IDIOTS.
Point taken... and agreed.
The OP should have allowed the climbers to lead through out of common courtesty. That he didn't is a minor faux pax assuming there were other routes nearby (which it sounds is the case).
Such an inexperienced climber "guiding" and "instructing" a large group of novices is irresponsible and unsafe.
To the OP: Puff your chest all you want, but the constructive criticism here, while shrouded in little jabbing insults, comes from climbers with far more experience than you posess. The most dangerous years for a climber are the formative years - usually when they have between 1 and 3 years of experience. Climbers with that level of experience think they know enough to be safe, but in reality lack the skills and knowledge necessary to solve problems that may arise. Settle down, climb safe, and please don't land yourself in ANAM.
Oh, and welcome to rockclimbing.com...
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coastal_climber
Feb 7, 2007, 7:21 PM
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vertical_planar wrote: Btw topropping is irrelevant to the question.
... Considering the topic is about TRing?
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j_ung
Feb 7, 2007, 7:27 PM
Post #81 of 121
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trenchdigger wrote: Davey wrote: Thank you all I get the point but I hope you get my point. NO PLACE FOR IDIOTS. Point taken... and agreed. The OP should have allowed the climbers to lead through out of common courtesty. That he didn't is a minor faux pax assuming there were other routes nearby (which it sounds is the case). Such an inexperienced climber "guiding" and "instructing" a large group of novices is irresponsible and unsafe. To the OP: Puff your chest all you want, but the constructive criticism here, while shrouded in little jabbing insults, comes from climbers with far more experience than you posess. The most dangerous years for a climber are the formative years - usually when they have between 1 and 3 years of experience. Climbers with that level of experience think they know enough to be safe, but in reality lack the skills and knowledge necessary to solve problems that may arise. Settle down, climb safe, and please don't land yourself in ANAM. Oh, and welcome to rockclimbing.com...
Trophy, trenchdigger. Well written.
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zeke_sf
Feb 7, 2007, 7:38 PM
Post #82 of 121
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Power_Tie wrote: Some of you seem to think that what we were doing was wrong, and unsafe. These rock climbs were on public land. I have every right to go to this place, and to take my employees with me.
Nobody disputes your right to climb on a climbing website. Expecting other climbers in this forum and in the field to respect you for your lovemaking and business acumen is laughable. Those more experienced than yourself have a right to point out your ignorance of the values and practices of our community for no other reason as simple as the fact your incompetence can hurt/kill yourself as well as others. Be safe!
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hummm
Feb 7, 2007, 7:40 PM
Post #83 of 121
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OP: How you manage your company has nothing to do with how fast and how well you can climb. You should be smart enough not to make that kind of connection. Just because I am an engineer doesn't reflect how well I can calculate the speed and force of my leading partners when they fall! You should also be smart enough to know learn from the books has nothing to do with your level of skill, just because I watch Shaun White a million time doesn't I am going to pull 720 next time?!
Sounds like you were at Castle Rock, you should let those people lead the crack, and ask them to pull your rope through again. The fact you mentioned that took you a while to set up is because you are a beginner!!! Set up over there can't be any easier than a 2 minute hike to the top for most places. You should share, and maybe they had a little attitude, but that never justified you giving out attitude. I don't believe in tic for tac. Once a while I get irritated by people who thinks they can hog everything. Plus, at Castle Rock, everything is spread out, I would hate to have to hike to another place because you are taking all 4 routes. Each crags are not far from each other, but still a good 15 to 30 hike.
Most comments were constructive, I think you should focus on that. Some might poke fun at you because you were a little arrogant. Leave your exec. attitude at the office. We are all out there to have fun, so be nice.
(This post was edited by hummm on Feb 7, 2007, 7:42 PM)
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puerto
Feb 7, 2007, 7:43 PM
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Wow this thread is priceless!
If you're gonna take over a crag with a bunch of top-ropes, you really should go out of your way to offer to pull at least one of the ropes if other climbers show up. They shouldn't have to ask..
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations. You two clowns are probably piling more budweiser cans on the floor complaining about 'the man' or something.
HAHAHAHAHAHAH I don't even drink that shit, and very rarely drink at all. I also have a very rewarding career but that has nothing to do with anything.
Guiding businesses has nothing to do with guiding in climbing. Take your corporate head out of your ass. One requires money lust, the other requires a lust for life...what's more important to you?
In reply to: You teach people how to use Excel? Sounds like a rewarding career. Now go teach someone who makes more money than you basic computer functions.
No one here is going to be impressed by how much money you make. Very laughable. It's not about who makes more money...I won't even go there since it's something people like you will never begin to comprehend.
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kman
Feb 7, 2007, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done.
In reply to: Yea ok stuffy business man. I'm sure it's fantasies such as this that keep you going. Hate to break it to you: We’re the guy your wife calls after your shiny BMW pulls out of the driveway and your Viagra fueled travesty of lovemaking left her unsatisfied. Again.
LMFAO!!!
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fancyclaps
Feb 7, 2007, 8:29 PM
Post #88 of 121
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In reply to: Viagra fueled travesty of lovemaking.
That has to be one of the best insults I have heard in a long time.
Beyond that I dont have much to add to the thread that hasn't already been said. One of the key things I have found with the climbing community is that kindness will get you a really long way.
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reg
Feb 7, 2007, 8:46 PM
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ya know - i got in this early but each time i come back and read the more i believe it's a troll. somebody looked at power tie's profile earlier as i just did- this whole thing has been a frickin joke. shut r down boys and girls before s/he lands us on the boat and starts felayin!
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hummm
Feb 7, 2007, 8:47 PM
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112 wrote: hummm wrote: Just because I am an engineer doesn't reflect how well I can calculate the speed and force of my leading partners when they fall! No, but if you were an Engineer, that fact, would imply you are able to approximate it! I don't think that is what you ment though. 
Sure, I can approximate, and pretty good at it, that came with my training as an architect. Just a little hard to pull out my calculator while I am belaying.
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saxfiend
Feb 7, 2007, 8:48 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: I should probably just leave it at that, but some of the more colorful responses beg a reply. [ remaining "I've got a big shlong" horseshit snipped]
JL
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zeke_sf
Feb 7, 2007, 8:54 PM
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I was of that mind early into this thread. That's why I asked where PT climbed (without an answer yet from him). I've even checked my Bay Area guidebook for a 5.9 crack that sounds like the one he's talking about near "TR Only" climbs. I've climbed at most every Bay Area crag, and none of them sound similar to what he described. So, he's either a troll that prepared some background before this thread, or he is what he says he is. I'm not sure which is more frightening
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fmd
Feb 7, 2007, 9:08 PM
Post #93 of 121
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Power_Tie wrote: Well! Quite a colorful collection of responses I have recieved here! First, I would like to thank everyone who weighed in with some constructive input, even if it was critical of what I was doing. I would like to think I am never above learning. With that said, I think the best way to meet everyone's needs would have been to allow those climbers to lead the crack climb, and then replace my top rope when they had finished. This practice was beyond my experience at the time. If this had been suggested by the other climbers, I would have happily agreed. I am sorry they did not think to suggest this. I should probably just leave it at that, but some of the more colorful responses beg a reply. Some of you seem to think that what we were doing was wrong, and unsafe. These rock climbs were on public land. I have every right to go to this place, and to take my employees with me. Further, I purchased several guidebooks at REI, and researched differrent areas we could go. This area appeared to be a good area to take beginner climbers, and would be easy to set up top ropes on the climbs. They were all set up on 2 bolts each, with 4 locking carabiners. I had practiced this at home, and read how to do it safely in a book. It isn't exactly rocket science. Also, every one of my team was trained to belay when we were back at the office in San Francisco, as part of the exercise. We took an hour in the afternoon, and worked on safe belay practices, plus climbing commands and knot tying. We had fun, and it got everyone excited about the outing. Finally, I think I will respond to some of the ribbing I am taking by a couple internet losers here. kman and dingus come to mind, as getting rather personal with me. I can take that, can they? I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations. You two clowns are probably piling more budweiser cans on the floor complaining about 'the man' or something. If you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done.
And "guiding" mulit million dollar business deals makes you a climbing "guide"? Do yourself a favor and take a deep breath and read what you just wrote about yourself. Then do a goggle search on some of these people that you are calling clowns. Just wondering? Do "your" employees and "your" team knows that you have little to no experiance in climbing?
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fallingup
Feb 7, 2007, 9:17 PM
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Troll or not, this has to be one of the most entertaining threads that I've read in quite a while.
fallingup
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boku
Feb 7, 2007, 9:28 PM
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fmd wrote: Do yourself a favor and take a deep breath and read what you just wrote about yourself...
You also might benefit from a close reading of the fine print in the insurance policy that covers your employees while on-the-job.
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sherrilewis
Feb 7, 2007, 11:10 PM
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saxfiend wrote: Either this is one of the biggest trolls yet perpetrated on rc.com, or power_tie is actually Donald Trump. JL
Power Tie?
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devils_advocate
Feb 7, 2007, 11:38 PM
Post #98 of 121
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sherrilewis wrote: Power Tie? [image]http://www.shaadi.com/wedding/fashion/accessories/images/sathya-paul-ties-5.jpg[/image]
Why didn't you say so... in that case, next time I get close to my wife I will gladly step aside and let Power Tie step in. As long as I get to watch.
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nedsurf
Feb 7, 2007, 11:44 PM
Post #99 of 121
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I facilitate top rope sites for various organizations. Despite what my non-climbing supervisors ask of me, I will not set up ropes before the group uses the rock to "reserve" the route. For a climbing site just north of the Washington DC beltway, I had to flat out refuse to guide, because it is already too saturated with guided groups and individual climbers. That organization had the national park permit to use the area but made no specific contribution to that overused climbing area. Other organizations that use the area make an effort to help maintain it.
Yes as a TRSM or guide you have to run your program. But as a climber who must be a part of the local climbing community, your business actions cannot be rude. I climb in the same areas that I take groups to. Bottom line with top ropes; if they are not being used at that time, they are coming down. Don't know about your specific situation, you must evaluate it yourself. I heard some places it is mandated that a guided group concede a route to an unguided group.
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nedsurf
Feb 7, 2007, 11:54 PM
Post #100 of 121
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Power_Tie wrote: Well! Quite a colorful collection of responses I have recieved here! First, I would like to thank everyone who weighed in with some constructive input, even if it was critical of what I was doing. I would like to think I am never above learning. With that said, I think the best way to meet everyone's needs would have been to allow those climbers to lead the crack climb, and then replace my top rope when they had finished. This practice was beyond my experience at the time. If this had been suggested by the other climbers, I would have happily agreed. I am sorry they did not think to suggest this. I should probably just leave it at that, but some of the more colorful responses beg a reply. Some of you seem to think that what we were doing was wrong, and unsafe. These rock climbs were on public land. I have every right to go to this place, and to take my employees with me. Further, I purchased several guidebooks at REI, and researched differrent areas we could go. This area appeared to be a good area to take beginner climbers, and would be easy to set up top ropes on the climbs. They were all set up on 2 bolts each, with 4 locking carabiners. I had practiced this at home, and read how to do it safely in a book. It isn't exactly rocket science. Also, every one of my team was trained to belay when we were back at the office in San Francisco, as part of the exercise. We took an hour in the afternoon, and worked on safe belay practices, plus climbing commands and knot tying. We had fun, and it got everyone excited about the outing. Finally, I think I will respond to some of the ribbing I am taking by a couple internet losers here. kman and dingus come to mind, as getting rather personal with me. I can take that, can they? I've guided multi-million dollar businesses through corporate mergers, sales, and reorganizations. You two clowns are probably piling more budweiser cans on the floor complaining about 'the man' or something. If you tough guys think I should step aside to let better climbers on a climb, you should step aside then next time you get close to your wife, and let a real man show you how it's done.
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climbsomething
Feb 7, 2007, 11:56 PM
Post #101 of 121
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saxfiend wrote: Power_Tie wrote: I should probably just leave it at that, but some of the more colorful responses beg a reply. [ remaining "I've got a big shlong" horseshit snipped] Either this is one of the biggest trolls yet perpetrated on rc.com, or power_tie is actually Donald Trump. JL
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tradrenn
Feb 8, 2007, 1:21 AM
Post #102 of 121
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kman wrote: You are right though. I would probably get my point across better if I avoided personal insults, after all it only makes the person defensive which accomplishes nothing in the end. Perhaps instead of "you are a complete fucking moron" I could instead write some thing more along the lines of "you are endagering the lives of people that are putting their trust in your (lack of) skill and knowledge...." Also, in the future when calling some one a moron, I will use more care when using your and you're
I didn't say anything about your "Your" comment cause I have noticed ( and been told ) that it don't matter any more ( mostly N. Americans schools )
The problem is that psychologically a person will not read your post because you insulted them, all they are going to think about is your moron comment.
The way I see it, it is a n00b section and we shall educate them for the benefit of all of us.
And since you have started it:
endagering is spelled endangering.
You have a good day now.
WR
P.S. Holy shit did this thread got big in a hurry.
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tradrenn
Feb 8, 2007, 1:28 AM
Post #103 of 121
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I would like to add one more thing to this thread:
P T you should always think about the future where you might pick up trad climbing.
The people you have pissed of are most likely your enemies now ( not too literally ), but you might need them in future when you need some help with trad.
Just a hint.
WR
P.S. Thanks Dan
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cintune
Feb 8, 2007, 1:48 AM
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tradrenn, I have to admit I started it all by calling the guy a dick. My bad. But he's certainly lived up to it, hasn't he? Exceeded expectations, in fact.
Also, FWIW, all current signs point to him becoming a sporto anyway.
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tradrenn
Feb 8, 2007, 2:13 AM
Post #105 of 121
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5.9 crack climb, hence the reference to trad.
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cintune
Feb 8, 2007, 2:23 AM
Post #106 of 121
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M'kay.
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the_leech
Feb 8, 2007, 4:44 AM
Post #107 of 121
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Those of you with 10,000+ posts are seriously responding to this thread?
Are you really all that clueless?
I’m disappointed.
Thankfully, it seems some of you finally figured out what should have been apparent to you well into the first page.
Here’s the newsflash for those who haven't figured it out.
--- THIS IS A TROLL!!! ---
I’ve finally broken out of my multi-year lurking status to make you all aware of this.
Look at the clues:
This is a new username
The username is “Power_Tie.” This name was chosen to elicit the ire of certain climbers, even if only on a subtle or subconscious level. Duh.
Mr. Tie took the effort to establish himself as a n00b with his initial posts. Please review them.
He then makes a post specifically designed to instigate climbers on many levels. It’s so friggin’ obvious. He brings business into climbing. He takes an obnoxious “team building” management exercise to the local crag. He describes hogging lead routes with a TR and an ensuing conflict. He describes bringing out a team of n00bs when he himself has no experience to speak of.
When he receives criticism, he responds indignantly and uses inflammatory terms like “you climbers” then throws out some veiled insults of his own.
There are more responses and criticisms from the masses. He responds initially with politeness so as not to completely blow his cover, then quickly throws in more cleverly constructed insults and indignation to fuel the fire.
The fire is fueled. The responses continue ad nauseum.
Do I need to continue? I hope not.
Good work Mr. Tie. You’ve hooked the suckers. I suggest getting a new username now and being a little more subtle in your approach. This was good, mind you. But I think you can do much better.
For those of you who are not aware, there is a whole subculture of people who construct intricate trolls just to suck you in and see how many posts they can generate. In fact, quite a few of the lengthier threads on this site are just that...
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zeke_sf
Feb 8, 2007, 4:50 AM
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^^^Nice try, the_leech, or, should I say, Power_Tie? Hmmmm?*
*While played out, I would still have liked a little Dr. Evil emoticon here displaying his evil pinky pose
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Feb 8, 2007, 4:54 AM)
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the_leech
Feb 8, 2007, 5:05 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: ^^^Nice try, the_leech, or, should I say, Power_Tie? Hmmmm?*
I am not Mr. Tie.
I am the_leech. From this point forward to be known as "He Who Exposes Trolls."
But thank you for the compliment. It was a nice troll on Mr. Tie's part, and I am honored that you credit me with his work.
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majid_sabet
Feb 8, 2007, 7:49 AM
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PT FYI
I ran in to a friend of mine tonight who is happen to be a park ranger in Bay area and I was trying to find out if you need a permit to take a large group of people for climbing instruction on a public place , well guess what, If you are doing it as commerical guiding or instruction, you need bring up your insurance paper work, business lic and basically get a permit and an approvel ahead of time so they know what you are up to in their backyard.
Now, any thing happens to one those kids out there without them (park ranger) knowing about, you are going to have the official people in charge turning your multi million $ business upside down like hell .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 8, 2007, 7:56 AM)
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Davey
Feb 8, 2007, 9:02 AM
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I tried to say this before. just not as inrormativlly.Thanks
And if this is a troll, thank you It was a good one.
"inrormativlly" Is this spelled right? Is this even a word? It is now.
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devils_advocate
Feb 8, 2007, 6:13 PM
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tradrenn wrote: And since you have started it: endagering is spelled endangering. You have a good day now. WR P.S. Holy shit did this thread got big in a hurry.
It got big yes, but in the tense of your sentence you might want to try the word get. Or remove the word did.
(This post was edited by devils_advocate on Feb 8, 2007, 6:14 PM)
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Power_Tie
Feb 8, 2007, 6:31 PM
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Ok, I took a step back from this discussion and looked at it objectively. Sincere thanks again to those who responded to my question, including those who took a little jab at me!
Thank you also for the entertainment! After browsing this website to try and educate myself more about rock climbing, rules and safety, I see that a good internet flame is quite common. And I am not above enjoying some of your clever low brow insults, nor above laughing at myself.
Thanks again. I'll try to be more conscientious when my team and I head out again in a month.
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lumpy
Feb 8, 2007, 6:53 PM
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Thank you too power tie for one of the most entertaining, well planned, and flawlessly executed trolls I have seen in a while. Pure entertainment! I look forward to your next work.
-Patrick
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j_ung
Feb 8, 2007, 6:54 PM
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the_leech wrote: I am the_leech. From this point forward to be known as "He Who Exposes Trolls."
If you, yourself, are not a troll, then I think we'll call you "The Guy Who Got Trolled So Bad He Ended a Multi-Year Lurk," instead. Thanks for the assistance, Leech, but I wouldn't have lasted 10k posts if I really minded getting trolled now and again.
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tradrenn
Feb 8, 2007, 11:20 PM
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devils_advocate wrote: tradrenn wrote: And since you have started it: endagering is spelled endangering. You have a good day now. WR P.S. Holy shit did this thread got big in a hurry. It got big yes, but in the tense of your sentence you might want to try the word get. Or remove the word did.
Oops I facked up, oh well.
WR
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kman
Feb 9, 2007, 1:15 AM
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I'm still hoping that this was NOT a troll. Anyone got any pliers to pull the hook out of my mouth?
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tradrenn
Feb 9, 2007, 2:53 AM
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OK
I will reverse the question.
Why do you care ?
I'm on this site for over two years now and I still can't figure out the TROLL crap that some of you people talk about.
Can anyone post a link to one thread where OP says something like "I was trolling you suckers"
I dare you to find one.
WR
P.S. I don't care, this is a n00b section and you already know what I think about it.
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