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jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 3:57 AM
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Agreed Bill. climbing comps that are lead oriented .. especially at the higher national/ international level are climb to failure basically. the routes they put up seem to be almost impossible to onsite so getting the highest hold possible is essential to score well. which leads to my favorite climbing quotes.. "If you're not flying, you're not trying"
The nature of sport climbing leads itself to falling.. you either get used to it or you limit yourself. You generally can't down climb roofs and very difficult moves.. so you either go bolt to bolt and be too hesitant or you push on, try hard and perhaps fall. It's a different mind set than trad climbing..
(i was going to say more i think but DDT thinks it's easier to click 9 buttons to get a new window with the thread in it than scrolling down to see the past page of posts) 
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 3:58 AM
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Hey Bill:
Yup, I saw the reason, and I know that the gym requires you to do it one time during a belay test.
And prolly everyone has done 5-10 practice falls at one time or another, myself included
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Gail opts to do this after every climb. This is what I'm talking about.
Certainly, I don't mean to criticize Gail (Whom I've not met) or anyone else. Just stating my opinion on why I think that (for me) regularly whipping into a system when other options are available might not be the best idea. (...in the event that you've had enough practice falls, whatever that might be.)
Practice falls are great. Gyms are great. Most belayers are great. Wing onto your system hard regularly, and someday, something is not going to be great.
Need proof of this? See thread title.
I'm hoping that you get perfectly well soon, Gail. And please don't think I mean to criticize you, I'm just throwing out a contrary opinion to the "Falling is Super OK" thing that I see around so much.
-Kate.
(This post was edited by holdplease2 on Feb 13, 2007, 4:02 AM)
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climbs4fun
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Feb 13, 2007, 3:59 AM
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rai wrote: maldaly wrote: Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. gosh - girls are so logical! 
Um maldaly as in Malcom Daly. So NOT a girl. 
(This post was edited by climbs4fun on Feb 13, 2007, 4:07 AM)
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billl7
Feb 13, 2007, 4:21 AM
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holdplease2 wrote: I'm just throwing out a contrary opinion to the "Falling is Super OK" thing that I see around so much.
With respect to Gail's belayer, I believe the belayer knew of her regularly taking a fall above the last bolt. The belayer also needs to accept/recognize the risk and that a mistake is more likely to go punished - or refuse to belay.
By the way, I've only heard very subdued whining from Gail who's back is broke, in very stark contrast with the Who's Fault Is It thread where no one got hurt.
Bill L
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billl7
Feb 13, 2007, 4:40 AM
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jakedatc wrote: The nature of sport climbing leads itself to falling.. you either get used to it or you limit yourself. You generally can't down climb roofs and very difficult moves.. so you either go bolt to bolt and be too hesitant or you push on, try hard and perhaps fall. It's a different mind set than trad climbing..
I'm pretty far off topic now but your last words above are worth repeating: "It's a different mind set than trad climbing."
Bill L
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 4:53 AM
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Yep agreed. I just hope Gail gets better soon and that we all keep super aware thanks to this...regardless of our preferred climbing style.
I also hope her belayer finds a good way to cope with this. Anyone can make a mistake, we all just hope its never going to be us.
-Kate.
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jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 4:57 AM
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Yea, With the correct padding they can put the top holds pretty far up there.
Belayers at comps should be even more ready for a fall at any time than usual but they should know that. and of course the falls will be unpredictable.. the kids should be going all out and even if they think they can't make the next move they are probably above the bolt anyway so you might as well give it a shot. The nationals video i've seen when they have very high overhanging walls is they give some really soft catches too.
thanks for the repeat.. Clip or whip baby ;)
and yes.. we're not in Kansas anymore Toto
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jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 5:02 AM
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I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. She says she made eye contact with the belayer. At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off.
The only other plausible scenario I can think of is that the belayer became confused, thought that Gail wanted to be lowered, raised the angle of the rope to lower her just as she jumped off, and then could not regain control of the rope.
Jay
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billcoe_
Feb 13, 2007, 5:18 AM
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jt512 wrote: I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. .........
uhh, you mean like the rape victim who could have avoided it..if this or if that?
Belayer is incompetent. Period.
There is NO excuse. Curt already said it and is right on the money.
Glad it wasn't worse Gail, good luck for a speedy - AND FULL -recovery.
Damn - scary story. Glad you were in a gym and not taking a lead fall in a bad spot.
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rai
Feb 13, 2007, 5:52 AM
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climbs4fun wrote: rai wrote: maldaly wrote: Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. gosh - girls are so logical! Um maldaly as in Malcom Daly. So NOT a girl.
I was referring to me - a girl - and logical! 
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zeke_sf
Feb 13, 2007, 5:54 AM
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jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off.
Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. I don't want to get into courtroom theatrics concerning the plausibility of eyewitness testimony either: "Did you or did you not see the ATC properly locked off? I repeat: DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT SEE THE ATC PROPERLY LOCKED OFF?" The belayer fucking catches. End of story.
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jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 5:56 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: jt512 wrote: I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. ......... uhh, you mean like the rape victim who could have avoided it..if this or if that? Belayer is incompetent. Period. There is NO excuse.
It's not a question of whether there is "an excuse." The fact is that if you value your health, you do everything in your power to ensure your safety. You double check your partner's harness, knot, belay set-up, etc., right? Well, before you take an intentional fall, you should be as certain as possible that your belayer is ready to catch you.
Jay
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jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 5:59 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible.
Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them.
Jay
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rai
Feb 13, 2007, 6:00 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: rai wrote: such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered. When does this ever happen? If someone tells me they are off belay - sport or trad - I'm assuming they are 'off belay' and not expecting to be lowered. That's just plain crazy talk, with maybe a little bit of Darwinism thrown in there.
Hey wonderwoman - sorry I lost you in my cryptic semanitcs. Here's what I wrote above:
But remember, trad and sport have their own systems - which I think can cause a heap of problems ... such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
I should have been more clear, but I thought my previous posts about commands would have shown my stance on the "off belay" command (which you clearly didn't read)... Off Belay to signify I wish to be lowered fits in with the "heap of problems" I was referring to ... Off belay is standard on most trad climbs as the climber says off belay to pull up rope and put the second on belay... Off belay means take me off belay. Wonderwoman - I was saying this ... not disagreeing with it.... check my other posts.... 
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zeke_sf
Feb 13, 2007, 6:08 AM
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jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them. Jay
This is why I said you a smart guy, Jay . Because you probably would visually inspect given the chance. Obviously, not everybody does. How far does the safety list go though? Read the rest of the thread because there are actually some good points (especially holdplease2).
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jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 6:12 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them. Jay This is why I said you a smart guy, Jay . Because you probably would visually inspect given the chance. Obviously, not everybody does. How far does the safety list go though? Read the rest of the thread because there are actually some good points (especially holdplease2).
I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate!
Jay
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vegastradguy
Feb 13, 2007, 6:14 AM
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a nearly identical situation happened to my best friend about a year ago- a 24' fall in the gym, two fractures, and a year later-- he's mostly okay, although he's 3/4" shorter these days. its messed up and it still upsets me to no end seeing poor belaying in the gym. his partner didnt even have their hand on the rope (on an ATC belay) when he fell....
i have very few belayers these days- maybe 4 or 5 that i trust for lead belaying...
i'm sorry you've been injured- take good care of it to be sure- a little more time getting better means alot more days out on the rock!
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zeke_sf
Feb 13, 2007, 6:21 AM
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jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay
Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well!
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jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 6:22 AM
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zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well!
She is one articulate motherfucker, that's for sure.
Jay
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whoa
Feb 13, 2007, 7:28 AM
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jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well! She is one articulate motherfucker, that's for sure. Jay
And clean.
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tisar
Feb 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
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Hey Gail, hope you are well soon and your lead head wore a helmet that day.
In following what Jay said:
I caught a (foreseeable) 20 footer last year of a 160 pound guy with an ATC XP in high friction mode. I think I had maybe a foot of rope slippage which caused light burn marks in my hand, but nothing that needed 'healing' (still I wear belay gloves now when climbing outside).
So if your belayer suffered more severe harm than that, the ATC was clearly not locked off - though she still must have had a grip on the rope.
That makes me wonder: Was she belaying palm up or palm down? I just cannot imagine how a palm down belayer can 'lose control' over the rope that way...
Fast healing!
Daniel
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redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 1:57 PM
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the_climber wrote: redpoint73 wrote: My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it. When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer. Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum. On that note I would have to disagree with you on the hand over hand thing. It encourages letting go with the break hand... despite having another hand on the rope. I would recomend to the novice to use both hands on the rope, but to lower as normal. But this is off topic and best for a separate discussion.
I've had time to think about this, and in the meantime, the thread has doubled in replies! So this post is probably a bit irrelevant, but here are my thoughts anyway.
When using an ATC, "hand-over-hand" is an incorrect description of how I lower. I've been mostly sport climbing, and w. a Grigri for some time now. And its been years since I taught any gym classes. So thats the reason for the poor description.
When I lower w. an ATC, I use both hands on the brake side of the rope and (right hand as primary brake hand) use my left hand to tightly grip the rope as I reposition my right hand, similar to the "two-hands down" belay method popularly taught in gyms. So my brake hand is never taken off the rope, anymore than when belaying (relaxing the grip, but not actually taking the hand off).
Now I don't do this 100% of the time, and most of us let the rope slide through our hands to some degree, perhaps out of complacency. But I tend to be much more careful about lowering if there is a big weight difference between me and the climber.
My main point is that I commonly see the belayer just letting the rope zip/slide through one hand, while doing nothing with the other. Feeding the rope slowly with both hands can help avoid lowering accidents.
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granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 2:04 PM
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gblauer wrote: I have seen her everyday since I joined the "30 foot club".
There's a club? Too bad the initiation process sucks so much!
Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her.
It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall.
As to the terminology of using "safe", when I use it with my husband it means I can tie him off but not to take him off belay yet. We only take each other off belay when we say "off belay". Make sure you and your partners understand each other's commands before you leave the ground.
Gail - I know you'll have problems making your trip to Mexico, but I hope it doesn't put too much else on hold. Try to look at the silver lining. I was planning on quitting my job and moving out west just before my accident. We're now sticking around here for a job that will give me modified work and to see my doctors. But I've got a good job, I have my friends in the area, and this allowed us to buy a house which we wouldn't have been able to afford if we had moved out west. Make the best out of a crappy situation.
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cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Hi Gail,
Hope you have a full and speedy recovery!
You mentioned that you see your belayer every day. Tell me, does she have any burns on her non-brake hand or fingers?
Reason I ask: There is a fairly common belay practice with a built in failure method. It was the way I learned to belay with an ATC, and I continued to do so until instructed to do otherwise by a guide, a year or so later. I had a hard time believing the guide that there was a problem with that my method, because *so* many people used it (and still do). So I looked around. Within a year, I had seen *two* people get dropped, both with that belay method, and both from exactly the reason described by the guide.
Here's the specific method, and the specific fault:
Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes.
Using this method, there is a moment when the belayer takes in rope, pulling it up parallel with the "live" strand. Next, in order to be able to slide the brake hand back down the rope, the belayer pinches both the brake strand and the live strand with the non-brake hand (typically left hand). If, at exactly that moment, the climber falls, both the belayer's hands grasp hard on the rope. Problem is, the belayer's left hand is pinching both ropes, and keeping the brake strand up too high, so the brake hand can't lock off. At this point, the belayer's hands are burned, he loses control, and no-one understands what went wrong.
I won't try to be prescriptive, but there are many solutions to this belaying problem, the simplest of which is to never pinch both ropes with one hand while they're parallel.
Please note, if you're someone who's been belaying for 10 years with this method and thinks this can't happen to you - you're probably right! In my experience, people who make it past five years or so with this method seem to have sufficiently trained themselves to *let go* with the left hand when the climber falls, if it happens at that point in the belay method. This is highly anti-intuitive, since most of the time the left hand on the live strand helps catch a fall. There's just that one split second where the left must know *not* to do what it usually does.
GO
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tisar
Feb 13, 2007, 2:43 PM
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cracklover wrote: [..] Here's the specific method, and the specific fault: Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes. [..]
This is exactly what I had in mind when I asked. I've seen this method once or twice done by American climbers (never seen a European belay palm up with an ATC and, to be honest, am glad about that). I always suspected it to be less-than-perfect to dangerous in the very moment of "slide".
That said, I'm sure there are people out there who are capable of belaying palm up perfectly safe. It just adds another failure mode to the game since it doesn't support the locked off position as palm down does.
- Daniel
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