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crillz
Mar 5, 2007, 5:42 PM
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I weigh about 195 lbs. and my climbing partner weighs about 130 lbs. So, when I'm leading (or even on overhanging top-roped routes) I'm worried about falling and yanking her - hands first - into the first piece of pro or bolt. I envision the belayer getting hurt as well as myself decking. Most of the time we build a quick anchor around a tree or something - when one is available - but an anchor is not always available. What do others do in this situation? She expects to get yanked up a little, but she doesn't know what a 20' fall will feel like yet.
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coastal_climber
Mar 5, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Myself and guys I climb with don't usually anchor in, usually, you won't go up that high. Her hands won't go into the first piece of pro, her belay device will. I doubt that you would deck hard. Sometimes I fall, and me and my belay will just about swap places. I don't worry, because of the physics of it or something, the counter weight stops you from landing hard.
>Cam
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j_ung
Mar 5, 2007, 6:11 PM
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If you have no other option close to the cliff, try having a third person in the system holding her down by the back of her harness as kind of a mobile anchor.
Or, fuck it, have the third person belay. 
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redpoint73
Mar 5, 2007, 6:11 PM
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I weigh 135 and belay my 190 and 200 lb. friends just fine. They may lift me up a foot or 2, but not all the way to the first bolt. On sport climbs, I usually belay dynamic and jump up anyway. Even w. my 230 lb. friend, I usually don't jump, but he will pull me 2-3 ft. off the ground when he falls.
But getting pulled up can be pretty freaky for an inexperienced belayer. It does take some practice getting used to how far she will get pulled up when you fall. Maybe try practicing w. some falls on a safe sport route, with a loose tie-in as a backup.
If dropping you to the ground or onto a ledge is an issue, then she can likely jump back or sit down as you weight the rope and counteract the falling force to some degree. This is kind of an "anti-dynamic" belay, so I would not do it on suspect protection. Again, this takes some practice.
Otherwise, anchoring in is not usually a bad idea. I would tie her off loosely with some webbing or cord so she can still move around and give you a dynamic belay or in case of rockfall. If no anchor is available, she can brace her foot against the rock to counter the falling force a bit.
Also make sure she is as close to being under the first bolt as possible, while still being safe (don't want gear, rocks, or YOU to fall on her). You may already be doing this. This ensures that the pull is directly up, and uses gravity to her advantage to its fullest extent. If she is standing far away from the wall, she will get dragged forward much more then she would have gotten pulled up.
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crillz
Mar 5, 2007, 6:21 PM
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Thanks for the replies.
It sounds like I/we have some irrational fears to get over. Thanks.
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jp_sucks
Mar 5, 2007, 6:34 PM
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It depends a lot on what type of route you're on and how much friction there is in the system as well. A 135lb belayer MAY only get yanked up a little bit if the friction helps but the situation could easily be reversed and they could get also get pulled up to the first piece pretty easily. If in doubt, anchor in or have someone else hold them down.
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crillz
Mar 5, 2007, 6:35 PM
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So you think it's ok to deck - as long as it's not hard? Or am I reading your response wrong?
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chh
Mar 5, 2007, 7:10 PM
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My girlfriend weighs between 92-95 pounds. I'm at 160 right now. I find it pretty easy to lift her well off the ground on a good fall. I haven't sucked her into a bolt yet, but it could conceivably happen I guess. But, she likes catching whippers (she thinks it's fun ), and I just try not to fall until I'm at our "safe distance" which depends, obviously, on how the route is bolted or how many pieces I have in. I prefer a heavier belayer if I plan on "falling" up a route and there is not upward directional option and I will change my route plans based on this. But this doesn't usually happen. With a little extra gear and some creativity you can almost always have a ground or upward directional. We utilize upward directional anchors when I feel that there is a probability I might fall low on the route, if the grade is near my limit, or if it's just one of those days we feel we should.
Also, it goes without saying that a good belay is even more necessary with wider weight differences. Make sure the skills are there first before you start lobbing off low on a route.
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redpoint73
Mar 5, 2007, 7:19 PM
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crillz wrote: Thanks for the replies. It sounds like I/we have some irrational fears to get over. Thanks.
I wouldn't say irrational. She will probably get pulled up, and it might freak her out. So practice in a controlled situation, like a sport climb with a anchor as backup or person to help hold her down.
I doubt she would get pulled up to the first bolt/piece. But jp_sucks has a good point, how much she gets pulled up depends greatly on how much friction is in the system. Best to experiment in an controlled situation. If she doesn't get pulled up much, and feels good about it, then party on. If in doubt, anchor her in.
crillz wrote: So you think it's ok to deck - as long as it's not hard? Or am I reading your response wrong?
I would say that is a poor way to interpret that. You may not be in total free fall when you deck, due to her weight counterbalancing the falling force. But it can still be serious. Or she can freak out and let go of the rope, which would be even worse.
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j_ung
Mar 5, 2007, 7:55 PM
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crillz wrote: Thanks for the replies. It sounds like I/we have some irrational fears to get over. Thanks.
I don't think you're being irrational at all. If anything, much of the advice given so far is a little too nonchalant for my taste. If I were you, I'd be very worried about breaking an ankle in what might otherwise have been a nice clean fall or of shattering a pelvis in what otherwise might have been an anklebreaker. So on, so forth...
There's good advice above about the belayer learning to fall back into the catch to shorten the fall distance. I've both saved and been saved by partners with that move. Sure sometimes it's okay -- even desirable -- for the belayer to be pulled up a bit. But not always. Not by a longshot.
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bigfatrock
Mar 5, 2007, 10:28 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Myself and guys I climb with don't usually anchor in, usually, you won't go up that high. Her hands won't go into the first piece of pro, her belay device will. >Cam
Not true at all. I saw a light weight girl belaying an average sized guy on an overhanging route. He took a fall and her left hand was sucked up into the first quick draw. She was okay, but it ended her climbing for the day.
I prefer my belayer not to anchor in so they can move around and take in slack quickly, but if there is a huge weight difference you might consider it.
My climbing partner is about 130, I'm 175. He usually stands close to the wall and sticks a foot against the wall to keep from being lifted up during a fall. A gym is not going to let you do that though so an anchor might be good.
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cracklover
Mar 6, 2007, 2:07 AM
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One other thing: I'd strongly recommend against having a tight anchor in situations where rockfall is a possibility. I once watched as a climber accidentally pulled loose a block the size of a fridge. Slid right down to where the belayer was standing. Had the belayer been anchored down... he'd still be there today.
GO
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petje
Mar 6, 2007, 7:57 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Myself and guys I climb with don't usually anchor in, usually, you won't go up that high. Her hands won't go into the first piece of pro, her belay device will. >Cam Not true at all. I saw a light weight girl belaying an average sized guy on an overhanging route. He took a fall and her left hand was sucked up into the first quick draw. She was okay, but it ended her climbing for the day. I prefer my belayer not to anchor in so they can move around and take in slack quickly, but if there is a huge weight difference you might consider it. My climbing partner is about 130, I'm 175. He usually stands close to the wall and sticks a foot against the wall to keep from being lifted up during a fall. A gym is not going to let you do that though so an anchor might be good.
Can someone explain me why a belayers hand should be above the belaying device when holding a fall? Doesn't make sense to me.
with all the devices i know, you always have the hands below the device.
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vertical_planar
Mar 6, 2007, 11:48 AM
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I think the most dangerous possibility is pulling her towards the wall and she impulsively taking her arms off the belay device to stop herself from hitting the wall face first. I have seen it happening.
Using a grigri would eliminate this risk.
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run2xs
Mar 6, 2007, 1:32 PM
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Using a grigri brings up another question though. If the belayer gets sucked up into the first draw, the cam can disengage, allowing the rope to run freely, dropping the climber.
So, is a grigri a bad idea for a heavy climber and an unanchored, light belayer?
I'm in the same situation (180 vs. 100 lbs) and like the safety of the grigri, but I don't like the idea of it failing should my belayer get sucked up into the first draw.
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petje
Mar 6, 2007, 2:23 PM
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Here i am taking a +10 meter fall with a belayer much lighter as i am. And he uses a grigri i believe. He rarely leaves the ground! don't make to much a fuzz about hittng first draws (or they should be VERY close to the ground/belayer)
http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/marshstephen/Video/?action=view¤t=Ettringen056.flv
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j_ung
Mar 6, 2007, 2:23 PM
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petje wrote: Can someone explain me why a belayers hand should be above the belaying device when holding a fall? Doesn't make sense to me. with all the devices i know, you always have the hands below the device.
Most commonly accepted belay methods involve a break hand and a guide hand, with the guide above the device helping to adjust tension. While you don't want the guide hand to help hold a fall, it's often up there when the fall occurs.
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j_ung
Mar 6, 2007, 2:27 PM
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petje wrote: Here i am taking a +10 meter fall with a belayer much lighter as i am. And he uses a grigri i believe. He rarely leaves the ground! don't make to much a fuzz about hittng first draws (or they should be VERY close to the ground/belayer) http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/marshstephen/Video/?action=view¤t=Ettringen056.flv
You had a lot of rope out to absorb force. With less rope in the system, your belayer needs to absorb more of it. If you had, say, a quarter of that length out, your belayer would have been much higher.
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j_ung
Mar 6, 2007, 2:31 PM
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run2xs wrote: Using a grigri brings up another question though. If the belayer gets sucked up into the first draw, the cam can disengage, allowing the rope to run freely, dropping the climber. So, is a grigri a bad idea for a heavy climber and an unanchored, light belayer? I'm in the same situation (180 vs. 100 lbs) and like the safety of the grigri, but I don't like the idea of it failing should my belayer get sucked up into the first draw.
Every device has strengths and weaknesses. Switching to something else won't help, if your belayer isn't competent.
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redpoint73
Mar 6, 2007, 3:00 PM
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run2xs wrote: Using a grigri brings up another question though. If the belayer gets sucked up into the first draw, the cam can disengage, allowing the rope to run freely, dropping the climber. So, is a grigri a bad idea for a heavy climber and an unanchored, light belayer? I'm in the same situation (180 vs. 100 lbs) and like the safety of the grigri, but I don't like the idea of it failing should my belayer get sucked up into the first draw.
For the bazillionth time on these forums: you should have your hand on the brake side of the rope when belaying w. a Grigri. When used properly with your hand on the brake end of the rope, the device will act like an ATC, even if the cam is open. There is not reason why a Grigri would be any more dangerous than an ATC in this situation.
petje wrote: Can someone explain me why a belayers hand should be above the belaying device when holding a fall? Doesn't make sense to me. with all the devices i know, you always have the hands below the device.
You never grab the rope above the device w. your non-brake hand to throw out slack for your leader? You must have some magical way of lead belaying that I need to learn. And obviously, this discussion is primarily about lead belaying.
As j_ung already mentioned, ideally you should not have your hand there in a fall. But it happens.
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anthonycuskelly
Mar 6, 2007, 3:37 PM
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I weigh about 95kg without a rack. Nearly all my climbing partners are lighter than me, and they never anchor in. I've seen too much rockfall to want my belayer tied down!
Also, I've had much lighter climbers lift me while I was belaying. It's called a dynamic belay.
Getting lifted isn't the end of the world, or anywhere near it. It's scary the first few times, just try and make sure you warn your partner you're about to fall (which you should do anyway).
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cracklover
Mar 6, 2007, 3:44 PM
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vertical_planar wrote: I think the most dangerous possibility is pulling her towards the wall and she impulsively taking her arms off the belay device to stop herself from hitting the wall face first. I have seen it happening. Using a grigri would eliminate this risk.
No, standing next to the wall would eliminate this risk. Standing next to it with one leg up to brace against the fall would eliminate this risk *and* keep the belayer from getting pulled up.
A gri-gri is not the solution to being clueless and not knowing how to belay (or knowing, and choosing to be unsafe anyway). Attitudes like the above are why people think gri-gris make belayers lazy. Gri-gris don't make belayers lazy, but they do seem to attract lazy belayers.
GO
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shakylegs
Mar 6, 2007, 3:55 PM
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j_ung wrote: petje wrote: Can someone explain me why a belayers hand should be above the belaying device when holding a fall? Doesn't make sense to me. with all the devices i know, you always have the hands below the device. Most commonly accepted belay methods involve a break hand and a guide hand, with the guide above the device helping to adjust tension. While you don't want the guide hand to help hold a fall, it's often up there when the fall occurs.
Which is an absolutely ridiculous concept. The rope is running from the belay device to the climber, so why does it need to be guided? It ain't going anywhere.
I'll grant that you use the hand to feed (or bring in) the rope, but other than that get your hand out of the way! I can't count the number of times I've seen someone catch a fall, holding the rope with a hand above the belay device. As though that'll hold the person.
Or, another practise that makes me laugh: folks new to sport belaying feed out some rope, and then hold out the slack as though they need to direct the rope to the climber's hand. Same concept, the rope is already attached to the climber, get your hand back on the brake side.
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vertical_planar
Mar 6, 2007, 4:20 PM
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cracklover wrote: vertical_planar wrote: I think the most dangerous possibility is pulling her towards the wall and she impulsively taking her arms off the belay device to stop herself from hitting the wall face first. I have seen it happening. Using a grigri would eliminate this risk. No, standing next to the wall would eliminate this risk. Standing next to it with one leg up to brace against the fall would eliminate this risk *and* keep the belayer from getting pulled up. A gri-gri is not the solution to being clueless and not knowing how to belay (or knowing, and choosing to be unsafe anyway). Attitudes like the above are why people think gri-gris make belayers lazy. Gri-gris don't make belayers lazy, but they do seem to attract lazy belayers. GO
I agree with you. Maybe I should have used the word minimise instead of eliminate
Never said the grigri is the solution for a stupid/lazy/incompetent belayer. There is no solution for such a belayer apart from getting rid of him. However, if you can't or don't want to get rid of him then a grigri is your best bet for avoiding decking. That is why the grigri attracts stupid belayers. Because it is idiot proof by design.
(This post was edited by vertical_planar on Mar 6, 2007, 4:26 PM)
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j_ung
Mar 6, 2007, 4:30 PM
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shakylegs wrote: j_ung wrote: petje wrote: Can someone explain me why a belayers hand should be above the belaying device when holding a fall? Doesn't make sense to me. with all the devices i know, you always have the hands below the device. Most commonly accepted belay methods involve a break hand and a guide hand, with the guide above the device helping to adjust tension. While you don't want the guide hand to help hold a fall, it's often up there when the fall occurs. Which is an absolutely ridiculous concept. The rope is running from the belay device to the climber, so why does it need to be guided? It ain't going anywhere.
I'll call it the feeding hand from now on. Problem solved. 
In reply to: I'll grant that you use the hand to feed (or bring in) the rope, but other than that get your hand out of the way! I can't count the number of times I've seen someone catch a fall, holding the rope with a hand above the belay device. As though that'll hold the person. Or, another practise that makes me laugh: folks new to sport belaying feed out some rope, and then hold out the slack as though they need to direct the rope to the climber's hand. Same concept, the rope is already attached to the climber, get your hand back on the brake side.
I'm pretty sure I can catch most falls with a single brake hand. Though it's called a guide hand, its allowed to do all sorts of other things as well. Feeding, taking, picking, scratching, waving... things of that non-essential nature. 
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