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hand_sandwich
Apr 6, 2007, 1:10 AM
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I've seen it too many times. Resorts and private owners buy the land near our beloved crags and eventually own our way of accessing the rocks. Cochise Stronghold, AZ is currently in Coronado National Forest, but looking to the future and the rate of development in Arizona, when will it be surrounded by golf courses and q-tipped snowbirds looking to escape the cold in their desert winter homes? I love the wildness and primative innocence of Cochise, and hate to see it marred by development. Here's a link to the site of a resort going up on the west side entrance (Middlemarch road) that will forever be in our view to the west as we gaze from the tops of our climbs. Let 'em know what you think!
Justin
http://www.bachmannsprings.com/
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glightning
Apr 6, 2007, 6:33 AM
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I looked around and it's sad in my opinion. I know what you're going through. A year ago on my way out to my local rock it was beautiful rolling foothills. If you go out there now you get 'city in the hills'. I don't think it will ever stop.
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reg
Apr 6, 2007, 12:02 PM
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
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STOP?
they don't give ah s--t about anything but $$'s. (well, i want some money too, some).
the best we can hope for is that they let us walk in without a fee, through the servants entrance - behind the treeline near the dumpsters - sweaty climbing bums - livin in the dirt, drinking their cheap liquor and havin sex all over the place - livin out of their cars, thinkin their hippy-dippy-yippe, whatever, lives have any meaning! MONEY, POWER - that gives life meaning, i tell ya.
aw, the heck with it.........where's my G.D. chalk bag?
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moose_droppings
Apr 6, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Do you have children?......they have to live somewhere.
Overpopulation is a curse on the Earth in the making.
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azrockclimber
Apr 6, 2007, 1:15 PM
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This awful project has been in the works for years now. I am saddened to see it come to fruition.
I remember a few years back sitting( or more like hanging) from the new second to last pitch of absinth of mallet and looking out over the dessert area between Middlemarch and the main road. It is jsut a
beautiful desert landscape.
God I spent so much time there on sheeps head and sheepshit... hanging out at the parking area camping. This BLOWS.
I was talking to Scott about this stuff. I know how much it kills me to see this happen. I can't imagine what it is like for Scott, who has put so much time and effort into developing that place over decades.
I hate this. This is going to ruin my whole month thinking about it. I was hoping it would go away. FUCK
I am guessing there is nothing we can do? I really don't have any experience sabotaging builders plans. Any advice? Seriously.
I would be willing to put in time, effort and money, into slowing this or stopping it altogether. Anyone else?
Does anyone know if there is any possible course of action whatsoever? Historic significance maybe? I am also guessing that the piece of land sold is private property so that pretty much thwarts any attempt at stopping it, right?
This is truly terrible.
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reg
Apr 6, 2007, 1:25 PM
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can they block access to a national forest? i don't think so esp. since this place is so well liked:
Rock Climbing in
Cochise Stronghold
“Treasure of a different sort awaits visitors to the Cochise Stronghold labyrinthine fastness. For rock climbers, the treasure is a marvelous and magical sanctuary of granite domes and cliffs that invites vertical exploration. The Stronghold, for many Arizona climbers, is simply the best climbing area in the state. It’s a wild and somewhat remote place that offers superb, multi pitch routes up chickenhead festooned faces, as well as some marvelous crack climbs..."
[inline C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\My Pictures\chochise1.jpg]
(This post was edited by reg on Apr 6, 2007, 1:32 PM)
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azrockclimber
Apr 6, 2007, 1:31 PM
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reg wrote: can they block access to a national forest? i don't think so esp. since this place is so well liked: Rock Climbing in Cochise Stronghold “Treasure of a different sort awaits visitors to the Cochise Stronghold labyrinthine fastness. For rock climbers, the treasure is a marvelous and magical sanctuary of granite domes and cliffs that invites vertical exploration. The Stronghold, for many Arizona climbers, is simply the best climbing area in the state. It’s a wild and somewhat remote place that offers superb, multi pitch routes up chickenhead festooned faces, as well as some marvelous crack climbs..." [image]C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\My Pictures\chochise1.jpg[/image]
They probably won't block the access but it will be a resort view from some of the best and most beautiful climbs in AZ....
This is really upsetting.
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chalker7
Apr 6, 2007, 2:18 PM
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azrockclimber wrote: I am guessing there is nothing we can do? I really don't have any experience sabotaging builders plans. Any advice? Seriously.
Cutting hydraulic lines on the heavy machinery is about the only thing I can think of that will slow down progress noticeably. However, it won't stop them and you will likely encounter strong security if you come back for a second try.
On the other hand if you know how to use any of the equipment there you could try digging a hole and burrying the excavating equipment there. Whish is relatively counter productive on the conservation end, but would be funny as hell.
Good Luck
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marc801
Apr 6, 2007, 3:53 PM
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Unfortunately the time to have stopped it is well past. It would have been when the developers were seeking approval from the local planning commission or zoning board. Unless there's some valid challenge on legal grounds - which would take a fair bit of $$$ - there's nothing you can do that would not be treated as vandalism at best. More than likely it would be viewed by local law enforcement as terrorism and merely delay, not stop, the project.
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azrockclimber
Apr 6, 2007, 4:12 PM
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acts of vandalism was not what I was going for. But I see your point about "the time being past"
I really wish someone out there would have done something. I moved back to PA shortly after that discussion I had on the rock regarding the proposed project.
I have been back and climbed the sheepshead and the rest of the stronghold several times. which is only a fraction of how often I would normally climb there in a single month but whatever.
I am actually suprised there are not stronger comments regarding this project.
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cracklover
Apr 6, 2007, 4:32 PM
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azrockclimber wrote: I was talking to Scott about this stuff. I know how much it kills me to see this happen. I can't imagine what it is like for Scott, who has put so much time and effort into developing that place over decades.
We have our development, they have theirs. Neither respects the other. Not a good situation - one where someone must lose. Sad, either way.
But it's no contest of course, the money and power wins.
GO
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mandrake
Apr 6, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Registered: Jan 7, 2004
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That's kinda funny, I had that same WTF? reaction when I saw that golf course from the top of sheepshead. As far as that area west of the stronghold, I don't know know that we have much say in its development. Access-wise, it wouldn't be too cool if word got out that climbers were monkeywrenching.
Though I don't think any of the climbing in the area is immediately threatened, hopefully it will serve as a reminder for climbers to join the Access Fund:
http://www.accessfund.org/
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oldsalt
Apr 6, 2007, 5:31 PM
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The view of Linville Gorge from Table Rock (NC) is more pristine than the one from Mt. Yonah (GA), with some mobile homes and a travel trailer park. However, the climbing is far superior at Yonah during the summer, because Table Rock is closed to protect the Peregrine Falcons. You climb where you can climb and you work with developers so that both groups can co-exist peacefully enough not to blow the access.
To jolt to another metaphor: I prefer to paddle out to a glassy break by myself or one of my sons, than to sit in a lineup and wait my turn. But, that's just how it is at most places on a good day. Deal with it.
The Old Philosopher
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muslmutt
Apr 6, 2007, 8:15 PM
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I agree to the over population statement. No I do not have kids, for that very reason. I fear what this place will be like in my final days, if I live to an old age. Why subject another human to the ugliness in store for the human race? As tragic as it would be this planet would benefit from a good plague.
Arkansas just lost Mt. Magazine to a new state lodge. Funny that they built that thing when they already have two mountain top state lodges failing. Oh, we are currently allowed to climb there, but not many want to.
I recommend reading The Monkey Wrench Gang, by Edward Abbey.
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deschamps1000
Apr 6, 2007, 8:55 PM
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Registered: Apr 29, 2004
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We cannot stop the development of the golf course.
What I believe climbers must be concerned with now is not allowing the forest service to cater to the new flood of yuppie tourists. We cannot allow wild Cochise to be dumbed down through paved hiking trails, RV camping, signs indicating trails, etc. etc.
I believe that this needs to be our focus, and think that we can have an affect. What do you all think?
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eastvillage
Apr 6, 2007, 9:19 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Do you have children?......they have to live somewhere. Overpopulation is a curse on the Earth in the making.
Over Population is a curable, man-made disease. The rampant development that is going on in the US is fueled by an ongoing, massive, population increase, caused mainly by too many people wanting to live here.
Sprawl, highways and pollution are consuming the wild places in the US at a faster rate than ever. None of this growth is sustainable and none of it is in our interests. Take a look around, the wild land you see today is dissapearing faster than the glaciers are melting. Fight back.
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verbomatic
Apr 7, 2007, 7:48 AM
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Strictly speaking, over-population is not the problem. The population density in North America is still way lower than Asia, for example. Population growth (due to birth rate) in the US is also quite a bit lower than in other places (like, say, the Middle-East). The problem is related to our (North American's) 'need' to maintain our standard of living. These are complicated issues, and I don't like to oversimplify things, so I'll leave it at that.
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muslmutt
Apr 7, 2007, 11:12 AM
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Because we are not as bad as they are does not make us right, in my opinion. Besides we need to think of "we" in global terms, not just we the mighty Americans.
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dirtme
Apr 9, 2007, 5:30 AM
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Would it be wrong of me to ask how much those homes are? I could use a winter vacation home.
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superbum
Apr 9, 2007, 5:36 AM
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stop having babies!
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Norwegian
Apr 9, 2007, 1:28 PM
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Yeah, i used to fret alot about the state of the planet. this fretting caused harsh feeling towards developers and oversized vehicle drivers and loggers and the likes. though i still attempt carry on with a light existence, i worry less about things. according to my new stance of...
we as humans are merely passing thru this place.
we have been here many times before (quantifying on a geologic scale).
due to our mental development towards complexity, we cant help but chase ourselves to extinction.
though we realize it, the genetic momentum is too great to overcome.
i have two children and i think about them and what they will see. i cant change the bigger picture, just my small part of the scene. so i just teach them what i understand, and leave the rest to the wind. but i think that domestication is the first step in the extinction process.
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bread_delivery
Apr 9, 2007, 2:20 PM
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The best way to stop developers and develpment without risking your own incarceration is to bring a lawsuit against the county. The County had to pass on the plans to develop the area. The plans had to include an environmental impact statement and maybe a wetlands preservation study (I don't know all of them) the cause of action would be a flawed administrative decision to permit the development. Friends of the Earth, Earth Justice and the Sierra Club I'm sure would be thrilled either to give you help or steer you in the right direction.
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hugin
Apr 9, 2007, 7:37 PM
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eastvillage wrote: Over Population is a curable, man-made disease. The rampant development that is going on in the US is fueled by an ongoing, massive, population increase, caused mainly by too many people wanting to live here. Sprawl, highways and pollution are consuming the wild places in the US at a faster rate than ever. None of this growth is sustainable and none of it is in our interests. Take a look around, the wild land you see today is dissapearing faster than the glaciers are melting. Fight back.
Um ... wrong. US population growth is currently its lowest by percentage since the Great Depression. By fertility numbers, it would appear that a good deal of that growth is also immigration - generally not the portion of society that will be buying up fancy new resort homes in teh hills. I'm sure continually lengthening life expectancies are not helping the matter, either.
The primary problem is not population growth. In the last 20-30 years there has not been such a significant growth in population to justify the explosive development that has been going on. The big problem is business and culture. Currently, there is a large movement toward the cities - small municipalities are starving for tax dollars as people move to the centers for commerce. Developers are building like mad at the fringes of the major cities to cash in on the housing boom (a boom that is quickly going bust as the pool of eligible buyers dries up and the supply of homes continues to expand - a lot of somebodies clearly failed their econ 101 class). Drive through any major city, and you'll find entire neighborhoods that are rotting. If it weren't for the people still living there, and various zoning laws, not to mention the cost of demolishing or refurbing old buildings over putting new ones up on cheap land, we might have found more urban renewal happening than suburban sprawl. But, that's just not what anyone wants.
Don't worry about our population (China's, India's, Africa's, etc might be a problem, but the West is generally OK). Worry about the choices you make and where you live, and try to influence others. The idiocy can only go on so long before someone goes bankrupt.
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billcoe_
Apr 9, 2007, 8:04 PM
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dirtme wrote: Would it be wrong of me to ask how much those homes are? I could use a winter vacation home.
Not at all and in fact this is signifigantly more of a positive statement than almost everyone else is taking. Bet this will be a good thing for many people, and not just the developer either.
These others could have shown up with the money and done this. Now they have to pay retail.
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moose_droppings
Apr 9, 2007, 8:23 PM
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hugin wrote: eastvillage wrote: Over Population is a curable, man-made disease. The rampant development that is going on in the US is fueled by an ongoing, massive, population increase, caused mainly by too many people wanting to live here. Sprawl, highways and pollution are consuming the wild places in the US at a faster rate than ever. None of this growth is sustainable and none of it is in our interests. Take a look around, the wild land you see today is dissapearing faster than the glaciers are melting. Fight back. Um ... wrong. US population growth is currently its lowest by percentage since the Great Depression. By fertility numbers, it would appear that a good deal of that growth is also immigration - generally not the portion of society that will be buying up fancy new resort homes in teh hills. I'm sure continually lengthening life expectancies are not helping the matter, either. The primary problem is not population growth. In the last 20-30 years there has not been such a significant growth in population to justify the explosive development that has been going on. The big problem is business and culture. Currently, there is a large movement toward the cities - small municipalities are starving for tax dollars as people move to the centers for commerce. Developers are building like mad at the fringes of the major cities to cash in on the housing boom (a boom that is quickly going bust as the pool of eligible buyers dries up and the supply of homes continues to expand - a lot of somebodies clearly failed their econ 101 class). Drive through any major city, and you'll find entire neighborhoods that are rotting. If it weren't for the people still living there, and various zoning laws, not to mention the cost of demolishing or refurbing old buildings over putting new ones up on cheap land, we might have found more urban renewal happening than suburban sprawl. But, that's just not what anyone wants. Don't worry about our population (China's, India's, Africa's, etc might be a problem, but the West is generally OK). Worry about the choices you make and where you live, and try to influence others. The idiocy can only go on so long before someone goes bankrupt.
Even if your statement is true, our population is indeed still growing. And does it matter who lives in the new homes, (immigrants or not), they're still there.
Worry about the other nations growth? We might be less populated than some, but we put out more than our fair share of pollution. If they weren't coming here in droves, I wouldn't be care what other nations do, I'm more concerned about our spot on the rock. Were quite good at telling other nations what to do, and most of the world is getting fed up with our self righteous spray anyway, especially when we demonstrate differently.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Apr 9, 2007, 8:24 PM)
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