can they block access to a national forest? i don't think so esp. since this place is so well liked:
Rock Climbing in
Cochise Stronghold
“Treasure of a different sort awaits visitors to the Cochise Stronghold labyrinthine fastness. For rock climbers, the treasure is a marvelous and magical sanctuary of granite domes and cliffs that invites vertical exploration. The Stronghold, for many Arizona climbers, is simply the best climbing area in the state. It’s a wild and somewhat remote place that offers superb, multi pitch routes up chickenhead festooned faces, as well as some marvelous crack climbs..."
[image]C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\My Pictures\chochise1.jpg[/image]

I am guessing there is nothing we can do? I really don't have any experience sabotaging builders plans. Any advice? Seriously.

I was talking to Scott about this stuff. I know how much it kills me to see this happen. I can't imagine what it is like for Scott, who has put so much time and effort into developing that place over decades.

Do you have children?......they have to live somewhere.

Overpopulation is a curse on the Earth in the making.

Over Population is a curable, man-made disease. The rampant development that is going on in the US is fueled by an ongoing, massive, population increase, caused mainly by too many people wanting to live here.
Sprawl, highways and pollution are consuming the wild places in the US at a faster rate than ever. None of this growth is sustainable and none of it is in our interests. Take a look around, the wild land you see today is dissapearing faster than the glaciers are melting. Fight back.

Would it be wrong of me to ask how much those homes are? I could use a winter vacation home.

Um ... wrong. US population growth is currently its lowest by percentage since the Great Depression. By fertility numbers, it would appear that a good deal of that growth is also immigration - generally not the portion of society that will be buying up fancy new resort homes in teh hills. I'm sure continually lengthening life expectancies are not helping the matter, either.

The primary problem is not population growth. In the last 20-30 years there has not been such a significant growth in population to justify the explosive development that has been going on. The big problem is business and culture. Currently, there is a large movement toward the cities - small municipalities are starving for tax dollars as people move to the centers for commerce. Developers are building like mad at the fringes of the major cities to cash in on the housing boom (a boom that is quickly going bust as the pool of eligible buyers dries up and the supply of homes continues to expand - a lot of somebodies clearly failed their econ 101 class). Drive through any major city, and you'll find entire neighborhoods that are rotting. If it weren't for the people still living there, and various zoning laws, not to mention the cost of demolishing or refurbing old buildings over putting new ones up on cheap land, we might have found more urban renewal happening than suburban sprawl. But, that's just not what anyone wants.

Don't worry about our population (China's, India's, Africa's, etc might be a problem, but the West is generally OK). Worry about the choices you make and where you live, and try to influence others. The idiocy can only go on so long before someone goes bankrupt.

Even if your statement is true, our population is indeed still growing. And does it matter who lives in the new homes, (immigrants or not), they're still there.
Worry about the other nations growth? We might be less populated than some, but we put out more than our fair share of pollution. If they weren't coming here in droves, I wouldn't be care what other nations do, I'm more concerned about our spot on the rock. Were quite good at telling other nations what to do, and most of the world is getting fed up with our self righteous spray anyway, especially when we demonstrate differently.

Arkansas just lost Mt. Magazine to a new state lodge. Funny that they built that thing when they already have two mountain top state lodges failing. Oh, we are currently allowed to climb there, but not many want to.

The US ppopulation in 1930 was approximately 122 million people, today it is 300 million.
Compared to 77 years ago, the US has had explosive growth in infrastucture and sprawl. Freeways did not exist then.
Most of the rapid population growth today is from immigration, legal and illegal. This is coming at a very heavy price and will detroy wild places in the US and must be slowed dramatically.

People who come to live in the US are big footprint people - big resource and space consumers.
The only reason the suburbs aren't in sight of Eldo is because of strict zoning.
What does eveyone think of the housing developments and mini malls marching up the hill toward Red Rocks?

I'm going to rephrase my above post. US population growth has been consistently at or below 2%/year for the last 77 years. Today, it is less than half that peak at about .9%.

... the problem is social and economic, not one of breeding and immigration. Economic problems have a habit of correcting themselves when the people causing the problem no longer have money to do so. Social ones (big footprint, and social desires for large suburban houses) are harder to address, especially in this format.

...I am actually suprised there are not stronger comments regarding this project.

Just like to point out that if these figures are correct, than .9% of 300mil is more people each year than 2% of 122mil. So while your percentages have decreased, the amount of people each year has increased.


Anyway you look at it, population is increasing every year, irregardless of at what percent comes from those that are born here or not.

It's not arguable that, by raw numbers, population is increasing more now than before.

But, that's a meaningless way to discuss these things if you want to have a practical discussion, especially with doom-and-gloom comments like "ongoing, massive, population increase".

We also have HUGE expanses of untouched land. Ever driven from LA to Denver? It's pretty barren for most of those 1000 miles ... 1000 miles that are FULL of a lifetime's worth of world-class climbing.

, and despite the shit flinging of some in this thread,

... (I) think that domestication is the first step in the extinction process.