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clayman
Apr 12, 2007, 11:36 AM
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tallmark515 wrote: BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope.
cheaper, yes. But do explain why it's safer please.
(This post was edited by clayman on Apr 12, 2007, 11:36 AM)
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dingus
Apr 12, 2007, 12:41 PM
Post #27 of 53
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salamanizer wrote: Gumbies giving advice to gumbies.... Classic RC.com.
Yup.
But that's OK. Noobs always give other noobs advice, in any sport, most any activity really. its just The Way.
(it really is)
DMT
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reg
Apr 12, 2007, 12:41 PM
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dan2see wrote: Carnage wrote: ... i believe that this rope is more than strong enough to sustain any forces from any falls. ... I believe that you seriously need some tutoring from an experienced mentor. 
me too. "jerry rig" at best
try for more then you need rather then "it'll work". when anchoring to a tree with static line, i always (i think 100% of the time) use the figure 8 follow through - couple raps around tree then put an 8 in the free end - back a bit - then loop tail around anchor side and follow back through the 8.
with the loops around the tree, the eight will never feel any weight. bomber.
oh - an "anchor" for top rope is ALWAYS two or more indepent legs, plz!
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tomcat
Apr 12, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Second using the figure eight follow through.Based on the idea that you are asking for advice about a toprope set-up,I'd recommend staying away from butterflys and especially bowlines at this point in your climbing life.There's nothing inherently wrong with either knot,but bowlines are especially easy to tie incorrectly,and then worthless.
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2007, 1:06 PM
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crotch wrote: tallmark515 wrote: C.) NOT an appropiate use for a Butterfly knot! shockabuku wrote: Also, I wouldn't prefer to use a butterfly for an anchor knot. treemonkey wrote: You also should use a figure 8 instead of butterfly. Any of you folks care to explain why a butterfly isn't an appropriate knot for this application?
I didn't say it wasn't appropriate but that I wouldn't prefer it. As I understand the usage here, this is a terminal knot in the rope. I personally don't use a butterfly much, but my understanding is that it's generally for midline usage. It's my personal preference, for a knot at the end of my line, to use a figure 8, or even the dreaded and much feared bowline, because I'm more familiar and comfortable with it. In this case, I would probably use an 8.
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lodi5onu
Apr 12, 2007, 1:39 PM
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i'd climb on it after smoking the entire ziploc bag full of weed and the nalgene of juice/vodka mix...but you should back up the chair leg with something else for redundancy...which has already been noted
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skinnyclimber
Apr 12, 2007, 2:02 PM
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Would I climb on it? No, I'd re-rig it in one of the aforementioned ways to add redundancey (pretty much my only issue with it) and to make it less of a mess.
Will this anchor get you killed? Probably not, by the way how big is that tree? Might as well back it up unless it's the previously mentioned BFT. Also I usually use my rope bag to pad the edge. It's simple and quick and will probably lengthen the life of your static rope/webbing.
Now about the ziplock full of weed...
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carabiner96
Apr 12, 2007, 2:05 PM
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clayman wrote: tallmark515 wrote: BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope. cheaper, yes. But do explain why it's safer please.
I'm throwing a vote towards the static. It's loads easier to tie in w/o having to flatlock all of the sides of webbing. Easier to maintain, burlier....overt the years I've used both and static has won out my heart. All of my webbing has now gone the way of the slackline.
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percious
Apr 12, 2007, 2:14 PM
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Would I climb on this? That depends. how many cycles is it going to see? Is the belayer at the top of the cliff where they can keep an eye on it or is the anchor hidden from view? How solid is the "chair". The truth is, there is no perfect anchor for all situations. An evaluation of your resources will tell you what to use in which situation.
Is a butterfly any better/worse than a figure 8 at the power point? I don't know. I think this link can send you in the right direction: http://www.caves.org/.../nh/50/knotrope.html
Personally, I like locking carabiners at my power-point, but I only use 2. Some people say 3 biners make the TR flow better though.
Another thing you did not mention about your chair anchor is how many times you went around the leg. The reason people use a "friction anchor" such as this is to distribute the load over a wider area, hence lessening the impact on the tree. So, the more loops you have around the tree the better for the tree. Also, if you use too few loops around the tree then you may create some cross-loading forces on the carabiners, as well as a pinching force in the rope as it rests against the tree. If there is sufficient friction to hold the climber's falls without weighting the biner, then you have a much safer system. (the biner should still be attached to the rope as you have shone)
Here is an excellent and FREE resource about anchors from one of my mentors.
http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
While most of the techniques in the document discuss anchor setting on a multi-pitch environment, the same knowledge can be applied to a top-rope setting.
happy climbing.
-percious
(This post was edited by percious on Apr 12, 2007, 2:16 PM)
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climbia
Apr 12, 2007, 2:18 PM
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Find a anchor book or proper instruction.
Static Rope won't stretch and rub over the edge like a dynamic rope. use an atomic 8. It gives you two loops to clip your two lockers to, unlike the butterfly's or figure 8's one. use two line s going back to two anchor. I like webbing to wrap trees. it's easier to replace if gets worn or tree sap on it. just ideas you have to adjust per climb.
but what do i know?
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zealotnoob
Apr 12, 2007, 2:26 PM
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I use a similar setup in multi-pitch trad where there is a BFT at a belay ledge (Gunks)... However, given the context of a top-rop situation, I'd add redundancy, regardless of tree size.
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j_ung
Apr 12, 2007, 3:26 PM
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Carnage wrote: So, since im an anchor building noob (1 class and some light reading under my belt) im not sure if this is acceptable Heres the situation. The closest place around here to climb has alot of natural protection set back from the cliff edge. Of course i dont want my rope running across this. Some friends told me a small section of static rope would be a good idea to bring. Heres what ive come up with for a setup: (note: apparently i cant take clear pictures with my roomates camera, sorry for the blur)  so i know this anchor is lacking in redundancy. since there is only 1 strand connecting the climber to the tree, however, i believe that there is enough strength in the rope to be more than safe especially in any top rope situation. The way i think about it, if the anchor is going to fail, it will be an the weakest point. with this anchor i think that the weakest point is the loop knot that the 'biners are on. i believe that this rope is more than strong enough to sustain any forces from any falls.
Is your system more than strong enough to sustain TR fall forces? Yes. Is it more than abrasion resistant enough to handle constant back and forth rubbing over a sharp edge as you repeatedly weight and unweight your anchor all day long? Maybe not.
Don't improvise if you haven't the experience for it yet. Instead, follow the rules. In other words, you need a second anchor point to add redundancy to your system. Each anchor point also needs to work independently of the other. If your tree is a BFT (big fucking tree), however, you can tie both ends of the static rope to it (use separate trees if they're not BFTs) and use a two-loop knot (2-loop fig-8, dual fig-8s or some such) to hang your rope. At this stage of the game you have zero use for an alpine butterfly. Stick to variations of the figure 8 and overhand, instead.
Three reversed and opposed ovals on the master point is fine. Your rope will thank you with many days of faithful service.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 12, 2007, 3:27 PM
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Carnage,
Please read the thread "the noobs must be culled" and STFU N00B!
Then get out your books and read again. Then get some books and read them twice.
Every one else, stop giving crap ass advise.
P.S. - The search function RULES!!!!!!!!!
-Boy
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j_ung
Apr 12, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #39 of 53
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clayman wrote: tallmark515 wrote: BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope. cheaper, yes. But do explain why it's safer please.
Webbing is safer than static line in some aspects. Less safe in others.
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j_ung
Apr 12, 2007, 3:35 PM
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crotch wrote: tallmark515 wrote: C.) NOT an appropiate use for a Butterfly knot! shockabuku wrote: Also, I wouldn't prefer to use a butterfly for an anchor knot. treemonkey wrote: You also should use a figure 8 instead of butterfly. Any of you folks care to explain why a butterfly isn't an appropriate knot for this application?
I know you know the answer, but for the sake of the thread... the butterfly is inappropriate for the same reason the single strand anchor is inappropriate, e.g., it's not redundant.
TR anchors typically afford us a remarkable opportunity to assert a lot of control over the rope system. That's one of the reasons why we commonly consider TR-ing to be more safe than leading. Not taking the opportunity to assert that control is, IMO, trez gumby.
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clayman
Apr 12, 2007, 3:44 PM
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j_ung wrote: clayman wrote: tallmark515 wrote: BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope. cheaper, yes. But do explain why it's safer please. Webbing is safer than static line in some aspects. Less safe in others.
well, that clears it up.
Your average 10.5 static line is quite a bite stonger than your standard 1inc webbing (and I know, tensile strength isn't everything).
I'm sure you know more about climbing than I do (no sarcasm here), but I can't think of an AVERAGE situation where webbing would be more safe than static line. Equally safe, yes, more safe, I don't get it.
cheers
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glahhg
Apr 12, 2007, 5:46 PM
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j_ung wrote: clayman wrote: tallmark515 wrote: BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope. cheaper, yes. But do explain why it's safer please. Webbing is safer than static line in some aspects. Less safe in others.
what the hell kind of explanation is that?
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j_ung
Apr 12, 2007, 6:48 PM
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A pretty shabby one. Sorry. 
The "static" in static line is a bit of a misnomer. Webbing is actually far more static. In some situations, such as when your TR anchor points are far back from the edge of the cliff, yards and yards of static line will add substantially more stretch to your system. This makes a couple things more likely. One, a fall low to ground or soon after a ledge will make the climber more likely to deck. And two, cyclical loading, which is an almost inescapable aspect of typical TR climbing, will cause static rope to rub longer lengths over sharp edges than webbing. You can make the argument that #2 isn't a big factor if the anchor is well padded, but you won't have escaped #1.
Webbing, on the other hand, has its own problems in TR anchors. Notably, it's less abrasion resistant than static rope. We're back to padding sharp edges again, aren't we? 
Lemme be clear: I'm not advocating for or against static line or webbing. Both are commonly used. Both are perfectly acceptable. Both require their users to understand the equipment's inherent strengths and weaknesses, which, obviously, is a recurring theme throughout rockclimbing.
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fitzontherocks
Apr 12, 2007, 6:51 PM
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Use tubular webbing. It's just easier, as safe as a big ol'hunk of static line, and will take the edge better, too. When I first started climbing, I did mostly top ropes, and I owned miles of webbing. I had pre-cut lengths of 10', 20' and even a 40' or two. I could sling Gibraltar. Tie a simple, safe water knot, clip a pair of lockers to it and climb on. Gear Express has it for .28¢ a foot. Cheap. If you've only got the one BFTree, make two slings. If you've got multiple BFTs, sling two. It's not that difficult. Or we could beat this to death some more.
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billcoe_
Apr 12, 2007, 7:35 PM
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A) Tie off the loose end of the static line so it's anchored.
B) Double the loop that the carabiners are on.
C) If you are concerned about the sharpness of the cliff edge, toss one or 2 of these where needed.
Why just leave the loose end laying around? Hell, tie it off on a dog collar or sompin, ya never know when a chair leg will rip....
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Apr 12, 2007, 7:38 PM)
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nb_boarder16
Apr 12, 2007, 10:01 PM
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So...this would probably hold, but honestly I wouldn't climb on it. My first issue is the carabiner around the tree like that (the biner is not made to withstand loads like that), I'm not really used to the butterfly knot either (really prefer a double figure eight) and finally you really need a second anchor point for redundancy. As far as the climbing end, the 3 biners would reduce rope drag but 2 back to back biners perfectly fine.
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foreverabumbly
Apr 14, 2007, 11:08 AM
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to throw more shit in the fan and to help deflate your self worth a little more; not only would I not climb on that set up, I wouldn't even hang my coat off it. Having said that, Im glad you asked the question before you used it, and its also good to see you practice set ups before hanging your life on them. nothing is more sickening than walking at the top of the cliff and seeing a line of worthless anchors being climbed on, set up by dodgy begginners and scouts. I hate scouts.
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colemanizzle
Apr 15, 2007, 12:02 AM
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I've been known to trust my life to less.
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curt
Apr 15, 2007, 2:42 AM
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colemanizzle wrote: I've been known to trust my life to less.
You and me both. I'm not sure that I would do so again or recommend it to others, though.
Curt
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new anchor.jpg
