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kane_schutzman
May 5, 2007, 3:19 AM
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That looks like an obvious brase failier.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 3:43 AM
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Argh!  myspace is blocked at my work, so those hyperlinked pics aren't showing up for me.
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caughtinside
May 5, 2007, 3:48 AM
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bobruef wrote: Argh! myspace is blocked at my work, so those hyperlinked pics aren't showing up for me.
they aren't pretty. the unit is basically brand new, stamped '307.' there is next to no deformation on the lobes, which I suspect means that the cam failed at a ridiculously low load. I"m not sure if you could have even aided on that rig.
It isn't apparent whether it was stamped 'tensile tested' or not. I will speculate and say it wasn't, otherwise we would have seen a photo...?
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 3:59 AM
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caughtinside wrote: bobruef wrote: Argh! myspace is blocked at my work, so those hyperlinked pics aren't showing up for me. they aren't pretty. the unit is basically brand new, stamped '307.' there is next to no deformation on the lobes, which I suspect means that the cam failed at a ridiculously low load. I"m not sure if you could have even aided on that rig. It isn't apparent whether it was stamped 'tensile tested' or not. I will speculate and say it wasn't, otherwise we would have seen a photo...?
Yowza!  Thanks for the update. |
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wings
May 5, 2007, 4:00 AM
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The cable goes through the rope sheath and connects to the head assembly where you've placed the blue circle.
What is the discolouration? Perhaps extra braze material. I can't say for certain from the photos.
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 4:03 AM
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It was that discolored location I was concerned about. Thanks... I am just curious if that is merely extra material or what. I know none of my aliens have had similar discolorations, but that doesn't mean a flipping thing since the QC of the actual cams ability seems to be very unstable... I doubt that there is more QC over the aesthetics of the cams, so if it is just extra material, that is totally feasible in my opinion.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Thanks for posting up a non-myspace picture!
I'm not sure what you're asking, but It looks like the cable broke, not the brazing (from this view). Then it must have pulled through the sheath (sorry if I'm stating the obvious). Sheath is held on by trigger wires. That circled are looks like an intact brazing.
It's hard to imagine what would cause a cable like that to fail? From this view (again, sorry, I can't see the other pictures), it looks like a relatively clean break. Hard to imagine what could cause a break like that? Overheating of that section of cable durring brazing maybe? Perhaps someone more knowledgable could suggest what would cause a failure like that?
Wierd.
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rightarmbad
May 5, 2007, 4:43 AM
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Looks to me like the cable was not fully inserted into the head before it was brazed, or maybe pulled out a little before cooling. Hard to tell from pictures though. More, better pictures would be nice if possible.
I like my old aliens.
Couldn't give me a new one at the moment. In reply to: Except for use as a keyring.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 4:47 AM
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Thanks! I really appreciate it.
Here's a picture of the Orange Alien from Indian Creek (the one that started the dimple recall) for comparison:
Being able to see all the pictures now (thanks again, medicus), it looks like a similar, albeit slightly different failure. With the Orange, it looks like the brazing connection wasn't sufficient and/or was brittle from the cooling process that allegedly caused the dimpled cam failures. Again, I know little to nothing about brazing, but maybe the failure would be similar to a arc-weld that penetrates too deep into the metal?
That's scary stuff. If this cam is supposedly tensile tested (and it should be since its from March of 07), how can anyone trust that CCH has tensile tested cams they send in?
Caughtinside makes an excellent point about the lobes not being deformed. Alien lobes are soft (another redeeming feature of their design). I've put bigger divots in mine w/ bodyweight.
What really makes my stomach turn is that his placement looks textbook, and the cam looks so new.
So CCH is saying that the failure had to be due to the cam being impropperly loaded over an edge and/or being kinked repeatedly over that point? First off, I have a hard time imagining Alien stems being affected appreciably by that kind of loading. Second, If that cam saw, or had seen loading over any kind of ledge, you'd see some kinks in the trigger wires too.
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 5:01 AM
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Not a problem, glad you could offer more insight into the situation. I think it's all ridiculously scary now. Thanks for the comparison picture too, I have only seen one other picture of one the the recall failures. If this one was in fact tensile tested, something else had to happen such as abuse to the cam. I agree with you bobruef... the wire looks to clean for anything like that. I highly doubt that this cam was tensile tested, otherwise I don't see how it could have passed.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 5:13 AM
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medicus wrote: Not a problem, glad you could offer more insight into the situation. I think it's all ridiculously scary now. Thanks for the comparison picture too, I have only seen one other picture of one the the recall failures. If this one was in fact tensile tested, something else had to happen such as abuse to the cam. I agree with you bobruef... the wire looks to clean for anything like that. I highly doubt that this cam was tensile tested, otherwise I don't see how it could have passed.
I swear i was reading in one of these threads about somebody sending in a bunch of aliens, and having them come back w/ some of them stamped "tensile tested" and some not stamped. You really can't win here. If it was stamped, this would seem to render their new "stamp of approval" worthless, as it appears the cam wan't tested. If it wasn't stamped, that would mean they shipped it out w/out testing. If the latter is the case, then cams w/ "tensile tested" may still be trustworthy. Either way, this looks like a serious oversight on their part.
I've always heard that the safest airline to fly on is the one that had the most recent accident, as they'll be at a heightened sense of awareness in matters pertaining to safety and security. It seems not to be the case here.
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 5:20 AM
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Yeah, you did read that somewhere. I don't remember where it was either, but I have read that post also. The issue I see with this, is even if the cam wasn't stamped, and the ones that are stamped may still be trustworthy... the key word there is may. If I take a fall, this $54 piece of gear may do what it is supposed to do. It may hold me in the event of a fall. The last thing I want to have to seriously worry about is if the gear I placed in a perfect placement will hold or not due to manufacture defects.
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healyje
May 5, 2007, 6:44 AM
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The cam stem did not "break over an edge" and this is not an example of the previous "brazing failure" which was the subject of the recall. This is a new failure modality likely resulting from failing to check to see if the stem was still really seated down in the shaft before brazing. It was clearly only inserted a a couple of millimeters at the time of the brazing at best.
And that isn't the bad news. To be honest, manufacturing errors happen, what is sad in this case is that it is fairly indicative that all new cams are not being pull/tensile tested before shipping. I find it incredibly hard to belive this cam would ever have passed any such a test.
Mistakes, even recalls happen, but for a cam stamped '307' to fail after the miscues of the past two years, well - there really is nothing whatsoever left to say - the defective cams speak for themselves. It is clear at this point that self-help is not the answer to the woes besetting CCH. If you're going to use Aliens then the responsibility has now officially passed on to you. And if I was you (and I am for these purposes) I'd do just what Maldaly said he was going to do - get a hammer and funkness and do your own damn testing. Get on'em or get down.
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fear
May 5, 2007, 7:00 AM
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It seems pretty clear that the cable did NOT break.... It wasn't seated into the stem and just the end was barely brazed to it...
Could we get an extreme close-up shot of the end of the cable where it pulled out? If the cable broke, you would see lots of stretched/deformed cable strands poking out...
Damn man.... I wish I liked the C-3's.... Guess I'm going to have to learn to...
PLEASE someone at Black Diamond buy out these idiots at CCH!
-Fear
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Power_Tie
May 5, 2007, 7:03 AM
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When I was looking to purchase cams, I discounted these CCH Aliens right away. They look like they were made in some drunk's garage! I am much happier with the products made by Black Diamond Equipment.
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pjdf
May 5, 2007, 1:49 PM
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I remember previous discussion by Russ Walling about possibly selling an "Alien tester." Anyone know if anything came of that? If so, I'd definitely be up for buying stuff to test a few Aliens.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 2:09 PM
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Hey healyje,
If the failure mode is as you indicated, what's with the smooth end of the cable seen in the Orange Alien photo? Is this just the end of the cable that's been melted down? Or are there some sort of connectors or end pieces to these cables? If this one wasn't inserted completely and just pulled out, wouldn't we see the same smooth end to the cable, and wouldn't we see a hole in the head where it was supposed to have been inserted?
I'll defer to you opinion on this, as you've had the most direct experience with the company. I'm a little curious though.
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soillclimber
May 5, 2007, 4:48 PM
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medicus, the stamp (from what I am told) is the month and year, as I stated in my post. 3/07. Not sure what damage to the stem you are seeing. In the placement pic, you can see that the cam is in the direction of pull and there is nothing for it to go over. Maybe you are looking at the black sheath that was around the stem? that is soft and the stem went all the way through it before it failed. hope that helps. Going climbin, see ya tomorrow.
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 5:08 PM
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I'm sorry... I'm probably going to sound somewhat rude here, but I have this exact model of alien (I was under the impression it was an older model when I got it). I know there is a stamp of the date... that isn't what I was inquiring about. I tried to upload a picture with a blue circle around the part I was talking about. It is just above the area where the brazing occurs. It is on the outside metal part, and someone on here mentioned the thought that it might be extra braze stuff or whatever. The area I am talking about in no way would have been affected by the current fall we're discussing; it just looked like there may have been the possibility of some sort of damage prior to this placement.
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soillclimber
May 5, 2007, 5:47 PM
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Medicus, Yep, I saw the pic that you uploaded. Not too sure what that is. It doesn't appear in the other photos. When I posted I had not read the whole second page of responses, my bad. Alright, really going this time. I see how people get sucked into the forum world. This is why you all never see me. It is real nice to see everyone concerned about this and each other. Take care all, I going to go whip on some bolts.
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 6:14 PM
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Yeah it does appear in the other photo where this specific side of the cam can be seen. Check the other placement pic that was included... it harder to see, but it definitely is still there. The other pics do not show this side of the unit, therefore it couldn't be seen.
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healyje
May 5, 2007, 7:57 PM
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bobruef wrote: Hey healyje, If the failure mode is as you indicated, what's with the smooth end of the cable seen in the Orange Alien photo? Is this just the end of the cable that's been melted down? Or are there some sort of connectors or end pieces to these cables? If this one wasn't inserted completely and just pulled out, wouldn't we see the same smooth end to the cable, and wouldn't we see a hole in the head where it was supposed to have been inserted? I'll defer to you opinion on this, as you've had the most direct experience with the company. I'm a little curious though.
Bob, the orange alien photo shows the intact, brazed stem perfectly seperated from the head leaving all the brazing material on the stem almost as if it had been cast. That gives it the appearance of being a seperate piece, but it really is just the brazing material formed around the cable by the head cavity it was supposed to have adhered to.
In this other one you can see about the normal amount of brazing material that flows down/up the stem from the braze, which is the best clue the stem cable wasn't inserted into the head more than just a bit at the time of the brazing. If you could get the slug of brazing material out of the head intact it would look like the cable end in the orange alien picture.
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bobruef
May 5, 2007, 8:21 PM
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Ok, that makes sense.
Thanks
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