" I was seventy feet up or so when I fell from just a few feet above the piece. P&B

A spin-off thread was requested to discuss just the broken Alien portion of the accident.

As far as I'm concerned, the deal is that I'd rather carry a rack of slung wine glasses than a rack of Aliens.

It was NOT A RECALLED ALIEN.

Really? I don't recall ever having heard of the cable stem of a cam breaking because of a sharp edge (or any cause, for that matter).

Jay

What is CCH's take on the incident?

I don't know why I'm bothering with this, since I don't own any Aliens and I don't intend to ever buy any under any circumstances, but I called CCH and asked what's up. Understand, I'm not acting as a journalist in this case, like I was during the original recall episode. I'm just curious to hear what's going on.

CCH was indeed contacted by, I assume, pinsandbones, in regard to the failure of his Alien. Said contact included pictures of the failed unit, which, apparently showed a broken cable stem, not a failed braze. So this failure is not the same as the recall failures. That MIGHT actually be bad news, since it may -- MAY -- point to an entirely different problem. However, it's important to note that cable-stemmed cams are vulnerable to some extent to sharp edges, of which it appears Souder's Crack has plenty. Without any additional information, I'll allow this failure might be due to that. To me, it's beginning to appear that this is not the result of any shortcoming on CCH's part.

Dave Waggoner also told me that he requested additional contact from the pinsandbones several days ago, but has not gotten it. Not sure where pinsandbones is, but he's not here either. Hey, pinandbones! Post up your pics, mate!

Lastly, I suggested to Waggoner that he post up with an update on this. I told him that, even if he has no additional information, a lot of people would appreciate some kind of proof that they care about what people think. It kinda seemed like that hadn't occurred to him. Waggoner's exact words were, "Yeah, I should probably go ahead and do that today."

Though the limited information available appears to vindicate CCH, at least in this particular incident, I'm not seeing a whole lot to make me change my mind about them and Aliens. Quality assurance aside, they still seem to be unaware of or indifferent to the legitimate fears of their customers. Instead of responding to worst-case scenarios, as I believe they should, they still seem to act (or not act as the case may be) based on what they hope is true.

Aliens remain the only cam on the market today above which I refuse to climb.

Aliens remain the only cam on the market today above which I refuse to climb.

I was seventy feet up or so when I fell from just a few feet above the piece.

bump. Where is this guy? He is about as vague as can be.

I think his post is vauge because he's actively trying to prevent the details of his accident from coming to light. (of course he does have a broken arm, so maybe its just hard for him to type)

For one thing, his post creates the illusion of transparency without actually saying anything.

To me this indicates that he wants someone to sue - and I hope he will convince me otherwise.

The most important detail of the accident, as I see it, is:
what was the next peice of pro below the alien, and
how far down to it.
(If he climbed up to the 50 foot mark, fired in a peice, and then continued 20 feet up to the alien, well then its only his fault.
On the other hand, if there was another peice 5 feet below the alien, then he just got a really shitty belay - but its still not CCH's fault he hit the ground)

I know people are more concerned with the details of the alien - and I don't mean to side track - but as far as the totality of the accident is concerned - a single broken peice of gear does not seem to be enough for a climber to fall to the ground from 70 feet up without at least one other failure occuring in the system.

a single broken peice of gear does not seem to be enough for a climber to fall to the ground from 70 feet up without at least one other failure occuring in the system.

Okay!!! I'm convinced!!! I just bought a yellow just like that one. I think I'll send it to CHH with those pix and ask for a refund..

Argh! myspace is blocked at my work, so those hyperlinked pics aren't showing up for me.

That looks like an obvious brase failier.

they aren't pretty. the unit is basically brand new, stamped '307.' there is next to no deformation on the lobes, which I suspect means that the cam failed at a ridiculously low load. I"m not sure if you could have even aided on that rig.

It isn't apparent whether it was stamped 'tensile tested' or not. I will speculate and say it wasn't, otherwise we would have seen a photo...?

Thanks for posting up a non-myspace picture!

Not a problem, glad you could offer more insight into the situation. I think it's all ridiculously scary now. Thanks for the comparison picture too, I have only seen one other picture of one the the recall failures. If this one was in fact tensile tested, something else had to happen such as abuse to the cam. I agree with you bobruef... the wire looks to clean for anything like that. I highly doubt that this cam was tensile tested, otherwise I don't see how it could have passed.

Hey healyje,

If the failure mode is as you indicated, what's with the smooth end of the cable seen in the Orange Alien photo? Is this just the end of the cable that's been melted down? Or are there some sort of connectors or end pieces to these cables? If this one wasn't inserted completely and just pulled out, wouldn't we see the same smooth end to the cable, and wouldn't we see a hole in the head where it was supposed to have been inserted?

I'll defer to you opinion on this, as you've had the most direct experience with the company. I'm a little curious though.

I remember previous discussion by Russ Walling about possibly selling an "Alien tester." Anyone know if anything came of that? If so, I'd definitely be up for buying stuff to test a few Aliens.

As for the pictures Andy posted, I'm no expert, but it looks to me like the cable failed, not the braze since a portion of the cable is still inside the head of the cam (or braze, or something).

Is the piece marked as tensile tested?

Jay

As far as I know, we don't know yet. Though some have speculated that it wasn't stamped, since no pictures were provided for the stamp.

do we know yet whether the cam was actually stamped "tensile tested"? because I have a cam from late 2006 that isnt stamped.. I'm not sure why since they claimed they would be stamping, but possibly this cam wasnt stamped either.

I have such a device. It's called a vise and a funkness. The vise was $20 at Harbor Freight (cheap Chinese junk, even more shoddily thrown together than recent Aliens). The funkness... I don't even know where that came from anymore, but it's powered out a few pins in its day.

Anyways, I have taken a number of whippers onto Aliens (and Friends, and nuts, and Camalots) but I don't think I'll ever buy another one. I've tested the ones I do have, and should probably do so again.

Those pictures are pretty disturbing. If you're climbing on Aliens without testing them, you're taking a much greater risk than is justified (in my mind). Funk and bounce...

At this point I wouldn't depend on or trust anyone but myself to test my aliens - in my case, two sets of hybrids.

Pictures are worth a thousand words. Some extra words that you should all know...CCH has had these photos for a couple weeks now. Allegedly, they say that it isn't a failed braze, that the cam must have been over an edge, etc. Judge for yourself...

As with previous Alien failures, this is the most disturbing aspect. Once again, CCH appears to be blaming their obvious fuck-up on something or someone else. It is becoming increasingly difficult (for me, at least) to have any confidence in these guys.

Curt

The most important detail of the accident, as I see it, is:
what was the next peice of pro below the alien, and
how far down to it.
(If he climbed up to the 50 foot mark, fired in a peice, and then continued 20 feet up to the alien, well then its only his fault.
On the other hand, if there was another peice 5 feet below the alien, then he just got a really shitty belay - but its still not CCH's fault he hit the ground)

I know people are more concerned with the details of the alien - and I don't mean to side track - but as far as the totality of the accident is concerned - a single broken peice of gear does not seem to be enough for a climber to fall to the ground from 70 feet up without at least one other failure occuring in the system.

Question for some one familiar with "sounders crack"

Does the crack lean to the left?

josh

In terms of the vise and funkness, a couple of quick questions. How do you attach the Alien to the vise? Do you just place it as if the vise was a crack of appropriate size? Or do you somehow tie it to something else that goes in the vise? Second, to what do you attach the vise?

I don't want to break whatever the vise is attached to rather than popping out the Alien. Finally, I assume that you need to pull the hammer in a downward direction to get sufficient force to really test the Alien, is that right?

so perhaps a better strategy would be to sacrifice a roll of 5mm cord and test all of the Aliens in my possession to hold 5kN.

The vise is bolted to my workbench. I shut the vise to about the middle of the expansion range and bounce it a few times with the hammer. A long time ago, Andy Kirkapatrick wrote about using 3mm, 4mm, 5mm cord to get familiar with what various shock loads "felt" like. If you blow up a loop of 3mm cord, it is about 1.5 kN of applied force, give or take a bit. A loop of 4mm cord is about 3.5 kN of applied force, and a loop of 5mm cord is about 5.5 kN of force. This depends a great deal on which cord, what condition, and how it is loaded, but I would like for my cams to absorb at least a good 3-5 kN without any trouble, so perhaps a better strategy would be to sacrifice a roll of 5mm cord and test all of the Aliens in my possession to hold 5kN. If I am going to do that, I suppose another fix-it would be to put a groove into a piece of leftover slate tile (I have a bunch from re-tiling our kitchen floor) and bolt the vise to a beam for a few hours, using that for the jaws. It's a lot more realistic, and easier to funk. Bounce, bounce, snap. Either the loop breaks at rated strength or the cam doesn't. Some of my aliens should probably be retired anyways, they look like shit and the heads are quite sticky. But none of them failed on my unscientific funking expedition last year, and god knows I'm not going to buy new ones.
!

Speaking of CCH, unless i'm blind, has a rep from there even checked out this thread? It would be nice to hear some kind of response from them, if they haven't already provided one.

It would be nice, but don't count on it. They are probably being advised by legal counsel to NOT reply to threads such as this.

It still would be nice to hear that they are actively looking to get the piece in question or results from an independent test. Something. It can't be a huge legal problem to give a bit of status like Omega Pacific did on the link cam issue.

It has been recently reported to CCH that the main cable broke on an Alien. We were e-mailed photos of the cam, however it isn't possible to make any conclusions from a photograph. We have asked the individual to forward the cam to a certified metallurgist for analysis, as of today April 27th, 2007 it has not yet been received by the lab. We will post the results as soon as we receive them from the metallurgist.

Rather than a vice+funkness, would it be possible to design a testing device using a two-ton hydraulic jack? doing so would offer some semblance of continuity in the testing pressure, especially since it will be done in my garage, rather than D. Waggoner's garage (as it obviously is not).

Rather than try and re-invent the wheel, perhaps a good start might be a press similar to that used to press bearing races...?

It was noted on a thread at Supertopo that CCH has posted a notice on their website :

As for buying a company... it's a bit easier said than done. For the record, a purchase of CCH and/or its design for Aliens has been attempted more than once before. Most recently an attempt was made around the time of last year's recall. I don't think CCH can stand up to due diligence.

Only a complete retard would buy CCH, the company. The smart thing for some good gear manufacturer to do is buy the exclusive rights to manufacture and market the "Alien" technology. That way, the acquiring company is not exposed any potential liability that the company CCH may have.

Curt

It still would be nice to hear that they are actively looking to get the piece in question or results from an independent test. Something. It can't be a huge legal problem to give a bit of status like Omega Pacific did on the link cam issue.

How easy is that to do?

I think buying patents is very easy.

Relatively speaking? Or can you just buy a patent and file some paperwork, like you might buy a used car?

Like any other property right, it may be sold, licensed, mortgaged, assigned or transferred, given away, or simply abandoned.

Relatively speaking? Or can you just buy a patent and file some paperwork, like you might buy a used car?

i gotta say that it appears the cable did not extend down into the sleeve...

OK, I really hate to add to all this arm-chair engineering (mental masturbation?) that's going on, but.....

the guys at Nomad Ventures mentioned that CCH was assembling 2 cam assemblies on one SS cable and tension testing both assemblies at the same time. Once the unit passed testing, the SS cable was cut in half and the loops for each cam were then swaged. Perhaps this explains why no one noticed that the SS cable in this failed unit was longer than it was supposed to be....

Wink, wink....Nudge. We just said we pull tested. We didn't say what we pull tested exactly. Now pull my finger.

It has been recently reported to CCH that the main cable broke on an Alien. We were e-mailed photos of the cam, however it isn't possible to make any conclusions from a photograph. We have asked the individual to forward the cam to a certified metallurgist for analysis, as of today April 27th, 2007 it has not yet been received by the lab. We will post the results as soon as we receive them from the metallurgist.

Since January 2006 every main cable is tensile tested using an Omega electronic strain gauge to measure the load. The .33 through 1" main cables are tested to 1750 lbs and the 1.25 through 2.5 are tested to 2400 lbs. After testing they are stamped on the cable eye to indicate the test was made. Ultimate strength of a 3/4 Alien is over 2700 lbs.

Since the recall, all main cable silver brazed connections are tinsel tested
.33-1/2= tested to 1800 pounds
¾ -1”=tested to 2000 pounds
1.25”-2.5=tested to 2500 pounds.

they need a major kick in the ass to get them into the modern world..