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c-money
Jun 27, 2007, 7:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: c-money wrote: cracklover wrote: c-money wrote: Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago... Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying. No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught. The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods.
You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.
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jt512
Jun 27, 2007, 7:30 PM
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c-money wrote: jt512 wrote: c-money wrote: cracklover wrote: c-money wrote: Most professional instructors phased out the "pinch-and-slide" method a long time ago... Please provide some documentation for that. So far as I'm aware, the pinch-and-slide method is still considered safe, and should be taught, especially for lead belaying. No, the pinch-anbd-slide should not be taught! While it is still considered safe as a method of belaying for the experienced, it should not be taught. The pinch-and-slide method has been taught to many thousands of belayers who have never dropped anybody. Used properly, the method is safe, and actually has advantages over your so-called more modern methods. You are absolutely right with these couple of points. However, there are several disadvantages that you seem to be ignoring.
I can think of no disadvantage to the pinch-and-slide method, once the belayer is proficient with it (if you can, please state them explicitly). The same cannot be said of so-called newer methods. Newer methods sacrifice flexibility and speed for security, a trade-off that is not required with the pinch-and-slide method when the beginner is provided with sufficient instruction and practice.
Jay
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slablizard
Jun 27, 2007, 7:51 PM
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eellis wrote: Slablizard- Many Many people have been dropped due to improperly using a Gri Gri.... Dozens.
Way more with an ATC I guess..In that scenario..(rope slipping) the GG COULD have caught the rope.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but sure is more "fail safe" than an ATC if you don't know how to belay
JMO
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cracklover
Jun 27, 2007, 7:59 PM
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Well, c-money, I don't read the rags regularly, but the only article I've seen that argued against the pinch-and-slide method was one in either Rock and Ice or Climbing that came out a year or two ago, and which touted a multi-stage belaying method so stupid and convoluted that it was ridiculed soundly on every climbing site I know of. If you wrote that article, I'm sorry. Perhaps you're trying to feel better about yourself now?
As for letters to the editor, unless they were from some reputable source on safety, they don't mean any more than what you or I think. I.E. - squat.
c-money wrote: While I can't forward you any documentation (I don't know if any exists), this style of belaying has been largely phased out by the major North American instructional outfits (the ACMG, the AMGA (as far as I know), and the gyms with certified staff) for use with modern belay devices.
Uh huh. There's been a sea-change. Guides have written in to the mags repeatedly, the ACMG and the AMGA have both changed their policies, and yet you can't find any proof of any of this? I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS.
In reply to: While the pinch-and-slide may be considered safe for those with experience (it is how I learned to belay), it is not the best method to teach. You mention one of its cons earlier: cracklover wrote: if you use the pinch and slide method (which is what I have taught) there definitely is a transition to make between locked off and lowering, and a brand new belayer may need to be coached through this transition several times before it starts to come naturally. Modern methods have smoothed this transition, making it more natural.
I disagree. I'm familiar with one other method of belaying using a friction device, in which the hands are mostly in the locked off position. This method simply trades one down side for another. The down side to this method is, of course, that you cannot feed out or take in slack to a leader as smoothly and quickly. In other words, it frankly sucks for belaying a leader if you have your hands locked off all the time. The pinch and slide is only "inferior" if all you're using it for is toproping, otherwise it is vastly superior. In fact, the methods that have you pulling slack through with both hands on the brake strand are also terrible when there's significant friction in the system. At such times, you *need* to pull the "live" end of the rope. And that means pinch and slide.
And if you teach the pinch and slide using the method where the belay is palm down and never pinch both strands with the same hand, it is very safe for new climbers learning the slingshot belay. You'll actually see that with palm down, belayers pretty much always gravitate to dropping their brake hand into the brake position by default, as it's a more natural position. Then, it's an easy transition to learn the palm up version later.
In reply to: Probably the largest downside of the pinch and slide with a current device is the fact that the belayers hand motions are almost all above the device in an unlocked position. Teaching a new belayer to belay in a way that keeps their hands OUT of the brake position is clearly not a good idea, something newer techniques have addressed.
I strongly disagree with some of your statements, and especially with your conclusion, for reasons explained above. And I'm still waiting to hear about how pinch and slide has been "abandoned" in exchange for "newer techniques" in the US.
GO
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slablizard
Jun 27, 2007, 8:02 PM
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patto wrote: Slablizard your an idiot and a troll for posting that gri-gri picture. Gri-Gri as MORE dangerouse for lowering because they only allow one brake hand. Personally I believe that when lowering with a tube TWO hands should always be on the brake side. (If you have gloves the 1 should be acceptable) Whatsmore if you at all unsure about lowering you should do hand over hand. This also wears out your hands less. By the sound of it your belayer only had one hand on the rope, there in lies the problem. When abseiling I ALWAYS do hand over hand but that is probably because I have a low friction device.
Hey PATTO
Cool down will ya kid?
If you don't klnow how to belay and you let go of the rope, like it happened here, the GG locks the rope for you. It's VERY HARD to mess up lowering someone on TR with a GG, genearlly beginners would lower you very slowly or jerking you all the way down...unless you find the ultimate idiot that just pulls the lever all the way down.
If you loose your rope with an ATC instead your climber drops to the deck period.
patto wrote: Gri-Gri as MORE dangerouse for lowering because they only allow one brake hand.
That's BS, ATCs and other belay devices have ben used for much longer than the GG, therefore obviously they have to have a longer accident list.
Nothing beats the safety of a GG, since without user action it locks the rope by itself.
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diophantus
Jun 27, 2007, 8:12 PM
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tantrikclimber wrote: diophantus wrote: Give her another chance, it's not like she could do any worse.  well yeah she could do worse....like break all his bones by dropping him 100 ft on talus!
Every bone in his body? I think she'd have to try to accomplish that my friend. Laughable hyperbole!
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wanderlustmd
Jun 27, 2007, 8:15 PM
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C-Money: Fair enough, I don't 100% agree with your point, but I can see the rational behind it. I may very well learn a newer method for comparision. The fact that most of the movement is above the brake position is a negative. Also, like Gabe mentioned, there is a tranision from brake to lowering, something I should have addressed to a greater degree. I doubt I'll change my approach, thought, as the pinch-slide works fine for me.
Zuegma: It wasn't ET, it was Sportrock. They have a standard "once-over" TR setup, something I think is better in the long run. It's easier on the ropes for one, and if you start climbing there and go to a regular gym without that setup, the new weight could be suprising. Possibly another factor in this scenario. Of course, if you're doing it right it shouldn't matter, but....
Bent Gate: That's a possibility, like I said above I will have to find out exactly what happened the next time we meet. She was understandably stressed right after it happened. I imagine, of course, that she was also quite embarrassed, and made sure I didn't flip out on her for that reason. I know if I had been in her shose I'd be crushed.
Jsh: Great advice, I agree. It probably came across that way, but I realize it isn't a matter of "test and your done." Nothing in climbing (or much else in life) is like that. But in this case, it was the sort of thing that belaying must be learned by belaying; ground school can only teach so much. It's still necessary, of course, but you eventually have to go do it, with adequate safeguards in place. Which is where I probably made my mistake by not having a backup in place...even thought she had performed fine up until that point. Hopefully you can see how it came to be I climbed without a backup in my original post. In terms of the comfort level, she seemed to be completely relaxed, we'd climbed together several times in the past and I'm not a mind reader. Her waiting to tell me of her discomfort until after was her mistake; everything I saw indicated that she was ready. Good lesson, though. I should assume people will wig out unexpectedly and take precautions accordingly.
In reference to people's nature to quickly jump to "experienced" status, I think the "newbie" label is a problem. If you're new, you're new but who wants to hear "I won't climb with you because I don't trust you: you're a noob." You can see why people feel that way, of course, but it makes sense that people would then try to complete the curve as fast as possible so they can be regarded as "competant" and not "newbie." Knowing that they are considered as "safe" by others inspires confidence, which is important in this sport. Of course, the big million dollar question is: are they actually safe? Which is a whole other topic. Nonetheless....
As I alluded to, my first thought after the initial "WTF?!" was "How on earth did I screw this up?" This is the exact reason that over the course of showing her things, I also tried to steer here toward the beginners course. I'm not a guide. On the other hand, I've taught people to belay in the past, have subsequently climbed with them and have not been dropped. I think what Healyje was referring to (I may have misinterpreted) is that there are several ways to do anything in climbing and it depends on context. If it works for you, it works...it just has to work all the time. You can belay with your teeth if you can do it perfectly all the time, without fail. That said, some methods are better than others. But the reality is as long as you do it right, you should be just fine....you just have to do it right! While in this case it was my job to make sure things were taught and interpreted correctly, she still made the mistake. I'll take my share of responsibliliy wholeheartedly, but not all of it.
I think you are 100% right in that I should climb with her to send the right message.
Healyje: I see what you are saying as well...though paranoia leads to such things...
I plan to meet up with her on Monday. Hopefully we can have a discussion and I can find out exactly what occurred and address it accordingly. I'm curious to see what the course taught her in terms of methodology, I'll follow this up later on.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
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pylonhead
Jun 28, 2007, 12:08 AM
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slablizard wrote: If you don't know how to belay and you let go of the rope, like it happened here, the GG locks the rope for you. It's VERY HARD to mess up lowering someone on TR with a GG, genearlly beginners would lower you very slowly or jerking you all the way down...unless you find the ultimate idiot that just pulls the lever all the way down.
We're talking about a device that has a "Drop the climber" lever on it. It's not hard at all for someone inexperienced to drop someone with a Gri Gri.
What is hard is for someone new to understand the following things while lowering a climber:
(1) You must keep your brake hand on the rope
(2) You must only pull the lever to the extent where the rope is running slowly and no further.
(3) If your climber begins plummeting to the ground, and you panic, you must remember to release the lever instead of holding it with a death grip.
There is plenty of room for mistakes here. I've certainly been on the receiving end of at least one scary lower with a Gri-gri. Never had a problem with an ATC.
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montanara
Jun 28, 2007, 1:38 AM
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I have experience teaching climbing, and believe me, some people just don't get it. It's usually a combination of their inability to appreciate the importance of taking safety seriously and their difficulty in coordinating a simple series of motions. To me, it seems like you took all the necessary precations, and she just messed it up. I wouldn't feel comfortable having anyone who'd dropped me belay me ever again, but if she proves herself in the future (in the far future), why not give her a second chance?
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112
Jun 28, 2007, 2:13 AM
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healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast. I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened. Jay Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be...
Joseph,
Are you actually advocating that people should NOT put their 'free' hand onto the brake side of the rope while lowering? Sorry, but it sounds ignorant to me to imply that such a practice is 'idiot compensation'. I guess I am an idiot, because I thought it was stupid to NOT make use of the 'free' hand...
-Ken
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healyje
Jun 28, 2007, 2:24 AM
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112 wrote: healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast. I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened. Jay Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be... Joseph, Are you actually advocating that people should NOT put their 'free' hand onto the brake side of the rope while lowering? Sorry, but it sounds ignorant to me to imply that such a practice is 'idiot compensation'. I guess I am an idiot, because I thought it was stupid to NOT make use of the 'free' hand... -Ken
I suppose by that same logic folks should be taught to rappel with both hands below the device...
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diophantus
Jun 28, 2007, 2:26 AM
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healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast. I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened. Jay Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be...
I've read plenty of stupid things on these forums. I'd like to say I'm surprised someone would believe this or agree with it but sadly I'm not.
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112
Jun 28, 2007, 2:29 AM
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healyje wrote: I suppose by that same logic folks should be taught to rappel with both hands below the device...
I do that as well, when the 'other' hand is not doing anything else...
I am NOT saying it is mandatory, but what harm does it do?
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healyje
Jun 28, 2007, 2:37 AM
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diophantus wrote: healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast. I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened. Jay Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be... I've read plenty of stupid things on these forums. I'd like to say I'm surprised someone would believe this or agree with it but sadly I'm not.
Oh well, some of us are simply not pleased with the hordes of folks looking to climbing for just another risk-free entertainment. I would be more than happy if the popularity of the sport completely collapsed ala windsurfing in the 90's. That way maybe things like the via ferratas and the current wave of 'plaisir ("pleasure") climbing - where the swiss government pays for the retrobolting classics to provide access and work for guides - would never take root in the U.S.
Or if you were simply referring to the two-hand thing - get a grip (literally) - if you need two hands to lower someone safely you have some sort of basic deficit relative to understanding how belay devices work. There is no particular harm, though there are situations and stances where one hand is likely what you'll have to work with.
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112
Jun 28, 2007, 2:49 AM
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I see, I think you mean if a person is incapable of breaking or lowering one-handed and that same person requires the second hand to be able to perform the operation safely...
And I agree!
I learned one-handed and just added the second hand as it seemed natural. I don't NEED the second hand to perform the operation safely - the second hand is redundant.
(This post was edited by 112 on Jun 28, 2007, 2:51 AM)
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jt512
Jun 28, 2007, 2:50 AM
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healyje wrote: diophantus wrote: healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Are you sure that she didn't get her hand sucked in too close to the belay device, getting a sudden sharp pinch, and letting go before she realized it? With a surprise pinch, by the time you realize it and clamp back down, the rope is moving pretty fast. I say again: Two hands on the brake side of the rope, and this incident would not have happened. Jay Jesus, is this what belaying has come to - lowest common denominator techniques? If that's serious advice, then what passes for belaying instruction these days is really shooting for the idiot compensation factor. Yet another good indicator many of the annual tidal flow of gym 'climbers' simply shouldn't be... I've read plenty of stupid things on these forums. I'd like to say I'm surprised someone would believe this or agree with it but sadly I'm not. Oh well, some of us are simply not pleased with the hordes of folks looking to climbing for just another risk-free entertainment. I would be more than happy if the popularity of the sport completely collapsed ala windsurfing in the 90's. That way maybe things like the via ferratas and the current wave of 'plaisir (" pleasure") climbing - where the swiss government pays for the retrobolting classics to provide access and work for guides - would never take root in the U.S. Or if you were simply referring to the two-hand thing - get a grip (literally) - if you need two hands to lower someone safely you have some sort of basic deficit relative to understanding how belay devices work.
I think I understand how they work just fine. I also think I understand what would likely happen if something along the lines of a bee sting on the belayer's only brake hand were to happen. The guide hand on the non-brake side of the rope, is completely and utterly useless, whereas it is an excellent back-up on the brake side of the rope. Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught. In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.
In reply to: There is no particular harm, though there are situations and stances where one hand is likely what you'll have to work with.
If someone can't figure out how to stand so that they can keep both hands on the brake side of the rope then they don't understand the basics of how "stancing" works.
Jay
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billl7
Jun 28, 2007, 3:14 AM
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Well, if it is known, it will be interesting to hear back on what the real problem was and whether two hands on the break strand would have guaranteed a reasonable lowering. Regardless, as a leader, I want a belayer who can think beyond blindly following someone's missives - even mine.
Leader: Lower.
Belayer: Lowering.
Leader: Hey, Lower!!
Belayer: Oops, there's a tangle in the rope.
Leader: Well, untangle it.
Belayer: With what?
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el_layclimber
Jun 28, 2007, 3:42 AM
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Wanderlust:
I am keeping out of any argument on methods or devices, or finding out cause of the original mistake.
Only yourself in the OP and one other person mentioned a backup (fireman's belay or otherwise). I think that this is the most sensible thing to do. Someone hanging on to the free end of the rope could have stopped you before the fall got out of control.
Mistakes happen. People only learn from mistakes and live to do it right the next time by offering a safe situation to make them in.
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jt512
Jun 28, 2007, 4:10 AM
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billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught. Sort of like the pinch-and-slide technique, eh you old fuck? 
I'm more than willing to keep an open mind about purported improvements in just about any aspect of climbing. It took me about 2 seconds to recognize the benefits of grigris over ATCs, the Self-Coached Climber over Horst's training philosophy, harness buckles that don't need to be doubled back, etc.; but I can assure you that I don't jump on the bandwagon every time a supposed innovation is sold to the general public. I have both empirical and theoretical reasons to prefer the pinch-and-slide method over supposedly newer methods, which compromise performance in favor of techniques that can quickly be taught in large group settings by a cohort of instructors who themselves are far less experienced and skilled than their predecessors.
Jay
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healyje
Jun 28, 2007, 4:24 AM
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jt512 wrote: I also think I understand what would likely happen if something along the lines of a bee sting on the belayer's only brake hand were to happen.
Well, there you go; I am admittedly old school with regards to belaying and if you're the sort that can't belay [one-handed] through a bee sting, a cloud of bee stings, or anything short of being hit by a rock rendering you dead or unconscious then I definitely don't want you belaying me. Again, it must be an old school thing.
jt512 wrote: Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught.
It isn't a better way. It's pretty much another one of many practices taught by those commercially vested in teaching climbing with the attending liability issues to mitigate. Again, it does no particular harm, but to teach people that it's HOW to lower someone - stupid. Again, why wouldn't the exact same logic apply to rappelling? It's clearly an example of the 'lowest common denominator' principle hard at work.
jt512 wrote: In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.
Well, sounds like a good policy if you make a habit of climbing with incompetent and challenged partners, or you yourself are...
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tantrikclimber
Jun 28, 2007, 4:27 AM
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diophantus wrote: tantrikclimber wrote: diophantus wrote: Give her another chance, it's not like she could do any worse. well yeah she could do worse....like break all his bones by dropping him 100 ft on talus! bone in his body? I think she'd have to try to accomplish that my friend. Laughable hyperbole!
just a little exaggeration for effect.... but enough bones to matter i'm sure.
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jsh
Jun 28, 2007, 4:32 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote: In reference to people's nature to quickly jump to "experienced" status, I think the "newbie" label is a problem. If you're new, you're new but who wants to hear "I won't climb with you because I don't trust you: you're a noob."
Perhaps I've got a heightened sensitivity to this lately - I recently climbed with someone who was excruciatingly less experienced and less safe! than his advertisement (and who later outright lied about what he climbed that day!). It made for a pretty unpleasant experience - all because he was so bent on labeling himself experienced, no more instruction needed, not a noob, mind sewed shut.
One more addition: I taught for years in a gym. There is a huge variance in terms of folks who get it right away - and I mean, full-on will never let go of the brake no matter where their hands are because they know death is on the line - and folks who took the entire 3 hours (and probably hours' worth after that) and still don't quite get it. It really is up to us (really) experienced folk to figure out where the student lies in that spectrum, and make sure they get to the end of the lesson. That's the responsibility we take on as teachers - because they can't grasp what they don't know, until they've learned it 100%.
Kudos to you for following through with her.
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jt512
Jun 28, 2007, 5:19 AM
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healyje wrote: jt512 wrote: I also think I understand what would likely happen if something along the lines of a bee sting on the belayer's only brake hand were to happen. Well, there you go; I am admittedly old school with regards to belaying and if you're the sort that can't belay [one-handed] through a bee sting, a cloud of bee stings, or anything short of being hit by a rock rendering you dead or unconscious then I definitely don't want you belaying me. Again, it must be an old school thing.
If by "thing" you mean "fantasy" then I agree with you.
Jay
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c-money
Jun 28, 2007, 5:25 AM
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billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: Whenever this subject comes up there is always some old fuck who can't admit that there is a better way to lower than the way he was taught. Sort of like the pinch-and-slide technique, eh you old fuck?
LOL!
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