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Gmburns2000
Aug 28, 2007, 8:01 PM
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musicman1586 wrote: caughtinside wrote: just semantics here, but you can still say you did the route, you just can't say you did it clean. I've done plenty of climbs where I took a fall or took on a piece and finished, and I tell people I've done them. It's not like I was never there! And depending on the context, I'll tell them I dogged it or took a fall too. But I don't trot out the full scoop on what actually happened on the climb unless context warrants it. If it's a good climb, I may go back and try to get it clean, maybe not. If it's a rotten climb, that's probably the end of it. Don't really give a hoot what people think of as good or bad style. Were talking on the same thing here, which is what I mean by successful ascent. More or less it isn't going on your ticklist or 8a scorecard yet 
I'm with you guys on this. Even if I rest or fall, I still say I did the route. I may clarify that I didn't do it clean, but, for me, the point is get up the damn thing. I mean, in the end, if you're doing a multi-pitch route and you rest on your belay anchor, isn't that ultimately the same as "taking"? I know, I know, you're likely to be at the end of the rope and can't go further, but do we really want to go toward saying that only free-solos of multi-pitch routes can get claimed as "clean"? I don't think so.
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cracklover
Aug 28, 2007, 8:15 PM
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It depends. That's all there is to it.
GO
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sed
Aug 28, 2007, 8:23 PM
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why are you asking other people to tell you what you should do?Rest, don't rest, whatever. do what you want.
S
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trenchdigger
Aug 28, 2007, 8:48 PM
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caughtinside wrote: trenchdigger wrote: I really don't see how frequently getting in over your head and hanging on gear on a route could improve your climbing faster than climbing at or near your limit. At your limit, you can focus on climbing smoothly and efficiently, and with the best technique - skills that will more quickly bring you to the next level. I'd disagree with this. Think of it like working a hard sport project. Maybe you're not into that, and that's cool. But it can be fun to have a line you're really interested in. Like a hard sport project, you may not even be able to pull the individual moves each time out. The climb may be beta intensive. The best climbers in the world put in multiple attempts on their hardest climbs. Some of them may do it the traditional ground up way, and some probably TR and then dog it to work sequences. Whatever floats your boat! But back to the quote, it's not always about 'getting better.' Sometimes its about a cool climb that you want to do, and doing hard moves. And on such a project, the difference between your first attempt and second attempt can be dramatic. Oh, I'm not talking about something that's way way over your head, that you have no chance of redpointing in like 20 tries. Just something hard. Just remember, you can't onsight everything! Or if you do, are you really trying? i feel like this thread was about resting on gear in general and not about redpointing cracks though...
You're missing the point. The OP is talking like he's onsighting nothing unless it's a fluke. He says he doesn't enjoy doing easier routes that he can get clean and would much rather have to hang to get up it.
I'm not saying it's wrong to have to do that on some routes, but when it becomes the norm rather than the exception, you are getting in over your head. You should be climbing routes closer to your ability rather than way above it. After all, the goal here is free climbing. Hanging on a rope is not free climbing.
And by "failure" I don't mean my trip is ruined, I'm going home. I prefer to free climb routes. I take much more pride and have a much greater sense of accomplishment when I complete a route cleanly without weighting the rope. Top-rope, lead, etc. - the type of protection doesn't matter as whether or not I use it. In my own mind, if I hang on the rope, I have not "done" the route.
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zeke_sf
Aug 28, 2007, 9:28 PM
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dingus wrote: I decided it was stupid to break my leg over the principle that resting on gear is some type of failure and should be avoided at all costs. I decided my leg bones were worth more than that - a lot more. Just a personal point of view mind you. DMT
That's the caveat to this whole discussion. Resting before some climbing section with serious consequences may be failure in some eyes, but, then again, you won't be the one out for 6 weeks hanging (how shameful) onto a piece of gear called a crutch.
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caughtinside
Aug 28, 2007, 9:36 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: I prefer to free climb routes. I take much more pride and have a much greater sense of accomplishment when I complete a route cleanly without weighting the rope. Top-rope, lead, etc. - the type of protection doesn't matter as whether or not I use it. In my own mind, if I hang on the rope, I have not "done" the route.
Well that's fair. But do you onsight everything?
I'll admit I feel better about an ascent of something I onsight. But, I'd by lying if I said I didn't feel good about getting up something hard where I either did all the moves, or even resorted to some sort of chicanery to advance. French free can be a useful skill in the bag o' tricks.
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trenchdigger
Aug 28, 2007, 10:02 PM
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No, I don't onsight everything. But I do onsight(or flash) a majority of new routes I climb. If I weight the rope more than a few times and it's easy to bail and clean my gear by walking around and setting up a rappel, I'll do that and come back later when I think I'm ready to climb the route. I'll cheat my way through a route when that option is easier than bailing. I'd much rather french free or aid than take an hour to flail up a pitch, hanging on every piece.
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dreday3000
Aug 28, 2007, 10:10 PM
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livinonasandbar wrote: From a post by JimDavis earlier this month: "Around 1pm on Saturday a climber took about a 20' leader fall when they attempted to rest on a tri-cam they placed, which pulled out when weighted. They fell, hitting a ledge on the way down, resulting in a severe compound fracture to their left ankle." Trad placements just aren't the same as 3/8-inch expansion bolts... Otherwise, you should do whatever you want without regard for other's opinions. Afterall, it's only a game.
What a crock of shit. The lesson to learn here isn't that you shouldn't rest on your gear, its that you should place good gear. If your gear is so shoddy it can't even take body weight, why even bother with the gear in the first place.
Seems to me that you can get in a lot of trouble when you develop a false sense of security by never falling on your gear. What if you suck at placing gear? If you ask me, there is only one true way to know when you're gear is gonna hold or not...
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dingus
Aug 28, 2007, 10:31 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: If you ask me, there is only one true way to know when you're gear is gonna hold or not...
Have a nice day.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Aug 28, 2007, 11:16 PM)
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dreday3000
Aug 28, 2007, 11:04 PM
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dingus wrote: dreday3000 wrote: Seems to me that you can get in a lot of trouble when you develop a false sense of security by never falling on your gear. What if you suck at placing gear? If you ask me, there is only one true way to know when you're gear is gonna hold or not... If you *truly* suck at placing gear then the first fall could likely be the Final Exam. Not so sure I would *follow* this logic but what ever. Its not like anything we talk about here has any bearing on reality! DMT
blah blah blah
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dingus
Aug 28, 2007, 11:14 PM
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dreday3000 wrote: blah blah blah
You're absolutely right. Sorry about that.
Cheers
DMT
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baja_java
Aug 28, 2007, 11:34 PM
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oh c'mon, hanging on gear doesn't necessarily mean you're a failure. it only means you're a weak coward, which is many, many times better than a failure. like, you're not a loser. you're just weak, and scared. anyone making it out to be more than that is just trying hurt your feelings!!
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caughtinside
Aug 28, 2007, 11:42 PM
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baja_java wrote: oh c'mon, hanging on gear doesn't necessarily mean you're a failure. it only means you're a weak coward, which is many, many times better than a failure. like, you're not a loser. you're just weak, and scared. anyone making it out to be more than that is just trying hurt your feelings!!
I bet the same guys who hang on gear use chalk too.
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baja_java
Aug 28, 2007, 11:46 PM
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damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!!
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zeke_sf
Aug 28, 2007, 11:47 PM
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baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!!
I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!!
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artm
Aug 28, 2007, 11:48 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!!
Swami belts 4lyfe!
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zeke_sf
Aug 28, 2007, 11:53 PM
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artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe!
Damn skippy! Hempen ropes RULE my mineshaft!!!
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fulton
Aug 28, 2007, 11:56 PM
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baja_java wrote: oh c'mon, hanging on gear doesn't necessarily mean you're a failure. it only means you're a weak coward, which is many, many times better than a failure. like, you're not a loser. you're just weak, and scared. anyone making it out to be more than that is just trying hurt your feelings!!
nicely said.
Although I'll confess that my sole trad-mode is 'onsight or die.' Sometimes trad is fun but always scary.
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gramps
Aug 29, 2007, 12:18 AM
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yep, baja summed it up nicely. Most everyone has to hang on gear occasionally, but for me it's a fairly limited amount of situations where I'd take. Basically, I have be in over my head, very, very pumped, get a good piece, look up and see a lot more burly climbing, and just know I don't have the guns for it and I won't even have it together enough to get a good placement up there. Then I'll take and rest.
However most of my most memorable leads were where I was considering resting, because of the reasons I mentioned above, but decided I did have some more left in me and went for it... Those are the ones you remember, because 100% of the time they end either by desperately hauling your carcass onto the belay ledge totally spent, but triumphant... or in a big fall. 
You've got to pick challenging routes to get better, but I think with trad it's good to mostly try stuff you have a chance of onsighting. But I guess that's just personal preference.
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notapplicable
Aug 29, 2007, 12:52 AM
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artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe!
Alright, calm down there Henry. I dont know about you but I dont like rope burn in my armpits everytime I take a fall. 
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artm
Aug 29, 2007, 2:03 AM
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notapplicable wrote: artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe! Alright, calm down there Henry. I dont know about you but I dont like rope burn in my armpits everytime I take a fall.
I suppose you use one of those modern belay devices too instead of the tried and true hip belay?
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j_ung
Aug 29, 2007, 2:10 AM
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artm wrote: notapplicable wrote: artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe! Alright, calm down there Henry. I dont know about you but I dont like rope burn in my armpits everytime I take a fall. What kind of sissified climber are you? I suppose you use one of those modern belay devices too instead of the tried and true hip belay?
Belay!? If I fall, I dive across the nearest sharp edge to sever the rope and save my partner.
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artm
Aug 29, 2007, 2:26 AM
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j_ung wrote: artm wrote: notapplicable wrote: artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe! Alright, calm down there Henry. I dont know about you but I dont like rope burn in my armpits everytime I take a fall. What kind of sissified climber are you? I suppose you use one of those modern belay devices too instead of the tried and true hip belay? Belay!? If I fall, I dive across the nearest sharp edge to sever the rope and save my partner.
That is the true and only Hardcore style!
We must all strive to follow your brave example!
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zeke_sf
Aug 29, 2007, 4:51 AM
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artm wrote: j_ung wrote: artm wrote: notapplicable wrote: artm wrote: zeke_sf wrote: baja_java wrote: damn straight! fucking chalk-aiders!! I hates dem damn sticky shoe people! Damn dem! Me boots have the hobnails or die!!! Get rid of that sissy modern harness too! Swami belts 4lyfe! Alright, calm down there Henry. I dont know about you but I dont like rope burn in my armpits everytime I take a fall. What kind of sissified climber are you? I suppose you use one of those modern belay devices too instead of the tried and true hip belay? Belay!? If I fall, I dive across the nearest sharp edge to sever the rope and save my partner. Bravo! That is the true and only Hardcore style! We must all strive to follow your brave example!
I bets all his partners is dead! Good man, that Jay Ungerfeld. Nobody left to tell bout times may or may not have micterated.
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