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evanwish
Nov 29, 2007, 2:58 AM
Post #26 of 62
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ok with all the liability the gyms face, WHY WOULD THEY MAKE UP THEIR OWN METHOD?!?!
petzl is very specific on how to use the gri-gri properly.
it really annoys me, at my local gym they don't let you use your BELAY LOOP to BELAY.
hmmmm.. tt is called "belay loop" for a reason right?!?!
instead they have everybody put the carabiner through both loops.. obviously having tri-axial loading. though TR'ing in the gym isn't much of a force problem, it's a poor technique that people are going to end up taking with them outdoors.
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jt512
Nov 29, 2007, 3:44 AM
Post #27 of 62
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taydude wrote: I use the over the shoulder method because it is the easiest way to stop idiots from pulling on the wrong rope.
And all along I thought the OP was a troll.
Over the shoulder? You're out of your fucking mind.
Jay
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JohnCook
Nov 29, 2007, 4:01 AM
Post #28 of 62
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Our local gym teaches correct belay technique. It takes about 3 minutes. Teaching lead belaying takes about 10 mins. If your gym is so disinterested in the well being of its users it should be closed.
Safety should never be compromised in the interests of saving time with new people.
In my local gym the staff are constantly on the lookout for poor belay technique, and will inform the poor belayer of their mistake. They also find time to give tips on climbing.
Perhaps your idea of working in a gym is to sit at the desk and read/do homework/play computer games etc. Tell me where your gym is so we can all avoid it!!!!
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ja1484
Nov 29, 2007, 4:25 AM
Post #29 of 62
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evanwish wrote: ok with all the liability the gyms face, WHY WOULD THEY MAKE UP THEIR OWN METHOD?!?! petzl is very specific on how to use the gri-gri properly. it really annoys me, at my local gym they don't let you use your BELAY LOOP to BELAY. hmmmm.. tt is called "belay loop" for a reason right?!?! instead they have everybody put the carabiner through both loops.. obviously having tri-axial loading. though TR'ing in the gym isn't much of a force problem, it's a poor technique that people are going to end up taking with them outdoors.
Most likely some idiocy having to do with redundant systems.
or they could be one of those dinosaurs that still believes the belay loop is the weakest part of the harness. One of the managers at the gym I climb at still thinks this is gospel...I have no idea why.
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time2clmb
Nov 29, 2007, 4:26 AM
Post #30 of 62
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JohnCook wrote: Our local gym teaches correct belay technique. It takes about 3 minutes. Teaching lead belaying takes about 10 mins. If your gym is so disinterested in the well being of its users it should be closed. Safety should never be compromised in the interests of saving time with new people.
Oh fer fuck sakes....another gumby factory just pumping em out eh. 10 minutes to teach lead belaying? Just as fucking stupid as the other gym. WTF...then you add that last sentence...
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jt512
Nov 29, 2007, 5:11 AM
Post #31 of 62
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JohnCook wrote: Our local gym teaches correct belay technique. It takes about 3 minutes.
You know, there was a time I would have bothered to reply to a statement like.
Jay
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Jbitz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:20 AM
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I think you can see by the reaction of everyone that has posted here so far is that most are appalled.
It really bothers me that a few gyms are not teaching people a proper belay method. Belaying is very important skill for roped climbing. You might even want to include etiquette also to that list, but that is another issue.
Taydude, how would you like to hear that one or more of your customers, tried to apply the technique you taught them in the gym outside and caused themselves or someone else to get hurt?
Just by working at s rock gym new climbers will likely look at you as a role model. Yourself and your gym management should reconsider the decision to teach this belay method. I understand trying to make climbing as safe as possible for your customers while at the gym, but in the long run you are doing them a disservice.
If I see someone doing something at the crag that could get themselves hurt or others I have no reservation about making them aware of it. I hope that others would do the same for me.
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Jbitz
Nov 29, 2007, 5:27 AM
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I sniped this pic from the Niagara Climbing Center website. Looks like a Gri Gri with tape on the locker and bolted to the floor.
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medicus
Nov 29, 2007, 6:00 AM
Post #34 of 62
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taydude wrote: Also none of our customers would ever be in an outdoor situation as we're at least 9hrs away from any roped climbing.
I'm not even going to bother dissecting the many reasons this statement is incorrect. I'll just say that the statement is 100% wrong and leave it at that.
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medicus
Nov 29, 2007, 6:05 AM
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taydude wrote: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
If your gym can't afford to teach proper techniques, it should be shut down. A couple hours of fun with crap techniques is a couple hours too many of very risky situations.
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evanwish
Nov 29, 2007, 6:42 AM
Post #36 of 62
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medicus wrote: taydude wrote: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours. If your gym can't afford to teach proper techniques, it should be shut down. A couple hours of fun with crap techniques is a couple hours too many of very risky situations.
I second that.
first off the proper technique is not that hard, and it usually takes me no more than 10 minutes to teach someone the technique, and 20 minutes of practice [with a back up belayer of course] and they pick up the technique properly.
but don't get me wrong i'm not saying that amount of practice is always enough, but with most ppl it is..
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Adrian_Falcus
Nov 29, 2007, 6:53 AM
Post #37 of 62
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Over the shoulder Gri-Gri method?
Ten minute lead belay lessons?
Hell of a thread.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 29, 2007, 2:13 PM
Post #38 of 62
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Adrian_Falcus wrote: Over the shoulder Gri-Gri method? Ten minute lead belay lessons? Hell of a thread.
I teach a 3 hour lead belay class, and there are still some that require a little more. Even the ones that "get it", are not good belayers after the course. You CAN NOT teach someone to lead belay in 10 minutes.
As for "over the shoulder?" I am having trouble even picturing what he is talking about.
Josh
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xtremst80
Nov 29, 2007, 2:20 PM
Post #39 of 62
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taydude wrote: This is how I teach at the gym I work at. I'm free to teach how I like as we are not a commecial gym nore is a fall very dangerous as we have 20ft ceilings and good padding. My gym has the gri gris "permanently" anchored to the ground so the customers would never have to worry about the gri gri being threaded backwards. Also none of our customers would ever be in an outdoor situation as we're at least 9hrs away from any roped climbing. I use the over the shoulder method because it is the easiest way to stop idiots from pulling on the wrong rope.
A noob WILL find a way!
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evanwish
Nov 29, 2007, 2:46 PM
Post #40 of 62
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xtremst80 wrote: A noob WILL find a way!
haa yeah they do. I was watching some kids climb in my gym and someone was trying to teach this girl how to belay. [while someone was climbing] He told her "Don't let go of you're right hand" so she got confused and let go and put her hands in her pockets... i was close and had to grab her brake line...
they find a way.
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Adrian_Falcus
Nov 29, 2007, 3:02 PM
Post #41 of 62
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Adrian_Falcus wrote: Over the shoulder Gri-Gri method? Ten minute lead belay lessons? Hell of a thread. I teach a 3 hour lead belay class, and there are still some that require a little more. Even the ones that "get it", are not good belayers after the course. You CAN NOT teach someone to lead belay in 10 minutes. As for "over the shoulder?" I am having trouble even picturing what he is talking about. Josh
Exactly. The gym I frequent has a 4 hour class on lead belaying/climbing. You have to take a rigid test to be able to lead climb/belay as well, one simple mistake like back stepping or back clipping and you automatically fail. Also, you are not allowed to use a Gri-Gri to take the test.
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MadDynoz
Nov 29, 2007, 3:06 PM
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Are they brain damaged becuase if that noob steps on belay they will be with one fall
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 29, 2007, 3:29 PM
Post #43 of 62
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JohnCook wrote: Our local gym teaches correct belay technique. It takes about 3 minutes. Teaching lead belaying takes about 10 mins.
 WOW!!
Are you SURE you are talking about belay CLASS and not belay TEST? Do you know the difference?
If there are indeed gyms "teaching" people to belay in 3 minutes, then can I please have a list of those gyms, so I don't accidently climb with anyone who learned there?
My respect for the people running Cleveland Rock Gym has just increased dramatically-- and I had quite a bit of respoect for them already... But I guess that's the difference-- when people who are actual CLIMBERS teach someone to belay, they take it seriously.
A belay class is 2 hours-- for a group of not more than 4 people. Most of the time it is only 1 or two people taking the class together, so it is basicly a one-on-one instruction. And they don't take a belay test at the end of the class, they have to come back another day and show that they remember the proper technique before they pass the belay test and get a card. And even after that, "regulars" keep an eye on newbies until everyone is comfortable that they are indeed doing it right.
JohnCook wrote: Safety should never be compromised in the interests of saving time with new people.
Can't agree with you more. Now, if we could agree on what "safety" means...
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primus
Nov 29, 2007, 3:39 PM
Post #44 of 62
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lena_chita wrote: A belay class is 2 hours-- for a group of not more than 4 people. Most of the time it is only 1 or two people taking the class together, so it is basicly a one-on-one instruction. And they don't take a belay test at the end of the class, they have to come back another day and show that they remember the proper technique before they pass the belay test and get a card.
But GOSH! Why do I have to take a class to learn to belay?? All I want to do is climb for a little while, then go home and spray to all my non-climber friends about how bad-ass I am because I'm a climber. I mean come on, get with it, gym climbing is sooo in right now! :roll:
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coolcat83
Nov 29, 2007, 3:49 PM
Post #45 of 62
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he first thing i was tought at my gym was proper belaying with an atc. I've never really liked grigri's. that sais no matter what you need to use your brake hand. has anyone been droped yet at this gym? things happen, you lean on the handle, something get's dragged into the grigri, s#$t happens. how are you teaching these people to lower? or do they just pull the lever and drop?
all the gyms i've been to require you to know proper technique with an atc, even if you then choose to use another device. personally my xp guide feels a helluva lot safer then a grigri. i once called a place that has a gym and a climbing wall and asked them what they belay with. they said grigri's, i asked can i use anything else? they said no, ok not bad, then they went on to explain that the grigri doesn't require you to do anything and that you would be perfectly safe and in control all the time....at this point i started talking like i wasn't a noob, i asked about their anchors....they said you don't need any you just hook into the grigri and the 'belay carabiner' through the two loops in the harness and you are all set after their quick belay class ($35 mandatory even if you can belay)...needless to say i went somewhere else.
i've also almost been dropped by very experienced atc belayers who had to use a grigri. they have their place...but..
also does this gym you speak of have lead climbing? and what's the shoulder belay? just throw the rope over your shoulder? the first time someone gets seriously injured(i hope noone ever does) you are going to have a hell of a lawsuit on your hands. 1. you are not using the device according to manufacturer specifications. 2. not only that but you tought that the proper way to use it was in fact against the manufacturer and accepted safe practice.
i wonder if someone showed a petzl manual to ur insurance company what they'd say...
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 29, 2007, 3:59 PM
Post #46 of 62
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primus wrote: But GOSH! Why do I have to take a class to learn to belay?? All I want to do is climb for a little while, then go home and spray to all my non-climber friends about how bad-ass I am because I'm a climber. I mean come on, get with it, gym climbing is sooo in right now! :roll:
LOL, true! But of course, for those "rad" customers, there is an option of having belay staff do the belaying.
My favorite is when there is a group coming in to climb-- guys and their girlfriends. Guys climb (gym staff belays) and girls just sit and watch... The guys usually wear underarmor T-shirts and soccer shorts, and look very macho on a 5.7. And while they wait for their turn to climb, they try the rock rings for pull-ups. How exciting!
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nivlac
Nov 29, 2007, 4:41 PM
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lena_chita wrote: primus wrote: But GOSH! Why do I have to take a class to learn to belay?? All I want to do is climb for a little while, then go home and spray to all my non-climber friends about how bad-ass I am because I'm a climber. I mean come on, get with it, gym climbing is sooo in right now! :roll: LOL, true! But of course, for those "rad" customers, there is an option of having belay staff do the belaying. My favorite is when there is a group coming in to climb-- guys and their girlfriends. Guys climb (gym staff belays) and girls just sit and watch... The guys usually wear underarmor T-shirts and soccer shorts, and look very macho on a 5.7. And while they wait for their turn to climb, they try the rock rings for pull-ups. How exciting!
Unfortunately, these customers are the ones that ensure your gym stays open... *sigh* how I wish that needn't be true!
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primus
Nov 29, 2007, 4:50 PM
Post #48 of 62
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lena_chita wrote: The guys usually wear underarmor T-shirts and soccer shorts, and look very macho on a 5.7.
5.7 in a GYM? SICK!! Do they also talk about Sharma?
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 29, 2007, 4:55 PM
Post #50 of 62
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primus wrote: 5.7 in a GYM? SICK!! Do they also talk about Sharma?
Geez, no! We are talking about total newbies here. The ones who talk about Sharma are the ones who have climbed at least a few times, know that "clippy things" are called carabiners, and can climb 5.9
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, and a small percentage of them really do become hooked on climbing and get serious and get good at it. 
