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dynosore
Jan 15, 2008, 4:34 PM
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To all the naysayers who sneer when I suggest that routes should be toproped if you aren't strong enough to lead them properly, answer me this:
WHY go through all the work of pre-hanging draws on the route, steep as it is, when you could set up a top-rope for less effort? If your answer is, so that you don't swing away from the wall and have to start all over again, I don't buy it. If you fall after, say the 4th or 5th clip, lower, rest, and climb back up, aren't you just top-roping most of the route at that point anyways? IS hangdogging really better style than top-roping? I think not.
People are more concerned with looking cool for the camera than climbing ground up on routes they are actually capable of leading. Sad. I won't ever climb 9a, but if I said I climbed something, you can bet it means ground up, no falls.
(This post was edited by dynosore on Jan 15, 2008, 4:35 PM)
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caughtinside
Jan 15, 2008, 5:02 PM
Post #27 of 64
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dynosore wrote: To all the naysayers who sneer when I suggest that routes should be toproped if you aren't strong enough to lead them properly, answer me this: WHY go through all the work of pre-hanging draws on the route, steep as it is, when you could set up a top-rope for less effort? If your answer is, so that you don't swing away from the wall and have to start all over again, I don't buy it. If you fall after, say the 4th or 5th clip, lower, rest, and climb back up, aren't you just top-roping most of the route at that point anyways? IS hangdogging really better style than top-roping? I think not. People are more concerned with looking cool for the camera than climbing ground up on routes they are actually capable of leading. Sad. I won't ever climb 9a, but if I said I climbed something, you can bet it means ground up, no falls.
Classic stuff dude, keep it coming.
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supersonick
Jan 15, 2008, 5:11 PM
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Where did he fall? I didn't see any falls. Or hangs.
The answer to your question is that sometimes a route can take months to send. You put the draws up once on the first day and then leave them up the whole time. Cleaning a cave route every go or even every day would be enough to drive a man insane.
As for toproping or hangdogging on redpoint, those are not the generally accepted ethics for what constitutes a send. Just like how your ethics are not the generally accepted ethics for what constitutes a send.
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camhead
Jan 15, 2008, 5:22 PM
Post #29 of 64
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this is classic...
news comes up of a new climb that is proposed to be one of the toughest in the world, and people are arguing over whether it was redpointed or pinkpointed!
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dynosore
Jan 15, 2008, 5:24 PM
Post #30 of 64
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That's exactly my point. If the "commonly accepted ethics" means working a route into submission just to claim a certain grade, then I guess my ethics are uncommon....
Chip, hangdog, pre-place draws, whatever it takes to make the grade. Then others will clamor to downgrade/question your climb anyways. What's the point? This sure isn't why I enjoy climbing.
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caughtinside
Jan 15, 2008, 5:33 PM
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dynosore wrote: That's exactly my point. If the "commonly accepted ethics" means working a route into submission just to claim a certain grade, then I guess my ethics are uncommon.... Chip, hangdog, pre-place draws, whatever it takes to make the grade. Then others will clamor to downgrade/question your climb anyways. What's the point? This sure isn't why I enjoy climbing.
Your statements really only show how little you actually know about climbing. For instance, you have certainly never climbed anything steep.
And you seem to have trouble distinguishing between ethics and style.
Uncommon ethics? It's pretty easy to have strict ethics and the best style when you're standing on the sidelines.
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camhead
Jan 15, 2008, 6:02 PM
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dynosore wrote: That's exactly my point. If the "commonly accepted ethics" means working a route into submission just to claim a certain grade, then I guess my ethics are uncommon.... Chip, hangdog, pre-place draws, whatever it takes to make the grade. Then others will clamor to downgrade/question your climb anyways. What's the point? This sure isn't why I enjoy climbing.
and my point is that you don't really know what you are talking about in relation to the vanguard of this sport.
But hey, it's okay, the best climber is the one having the most fun, right?
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itstoearly
Jan 15, 2008, 6:43 PM
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A true climber would have climbed the thing barefoot, no chalk, and with absolutely no safety.
Climbing shoes are cheating, since they give you an unnatural advantage. So is chalk.
And the rope is pointless.... if you are going to fall, don't bother climbing. And if you don't fall, why bring a rope? It's all so unethical and unnatural.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 15, 2008, 7:05 PM
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itstoearly wrote: A true climber would have climbed the thing barefoot, no chalk, and with absolutely no safety.
She did, but she never sprayed about it, so no one but her ever knew it happened.
Brutus
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dynosore
Jan 15, 2008, 8:34 PM
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caughtinside wrote: dynosore wrote: That's exactly my point. If the "commonly accepted ethics" means working a route into submission just to claim a certain grade, then I guess my ethics are uncommon.... Chip, hangdog, pre-place draws, whatever it takes to make the grade. Then others will clamor to downgrade/question your climb anyways. What's the point? This sure isn't why I enjoy climbing. Your statements really only show how little you actually know about climbing. For instance, you have certainly never climbed anything steep. And you seem to have trouble distinguishing between ethics and style. Uncommon ethics? It's pretty easy to have strict ethics and the best style when you're standing on the sidelines.
Since you have any idea what or when I climb...pretty lame ad hominem attack....and you avoided answering my question.
(This post was edited by dynosore on Jan 15, 2008, 8:35 PM)
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dynosore
Jan 15, 2008, 8:36 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: itstoearly wrote: A true climber would have climbed the thing barefoot, no chalk, and with absolutely no safety. She did, but she never sprayed about it, so no one but her ever knew it happened. Brutus
Now THAT's a respectable climb in my book.
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caughtinside
Jan 15, 2008, 8:42 PM
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dynosore wrote: caughtinside wrote: dynosore wrote: That's exactly my point. If the "commonly accepted ethics" means working a route into submission just to claim a certain grade, then I guess my ethics are uncommon.... Chip, hangdog, pre-place draws, whatever it takes to make the grade. Then others will clamor to downgrade/question your climb anyways. What's the point? This sure isn't why I enjoy climbing. Your statements really only show how little you actually know about climbing. For instance, you have certainly never climbed anything steep. And you seem to have trouble distinguishing between ethics and style. Uncommon ethics? It's pretty easy to have strict ethics and the best style when you're standing on the sidelines. Since you have any idea what or when I climb...pretty lame ad hominem attack....and you avoided answering my question.
See, that's the funny thing. From your posts in this thread, I think I have a pretty good idea about what or when you climb. As in, nothing steep and not very often.
It's true. I'm one of those climbers with zero style who doesn't see any glory in clipping a quickdraw onto a bolt.
Did you have a question worth taking seriously in there? I must have missed it. Quit trying to apply trad notions of style to sport.
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hafilax
Jan 15, 2008, 9:48 PM
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So now that the ridiculous discussion of an accepted style of ascent is through lets get back to the original point.
It will be interesting to see how subsequent ascentionists feel about the route. It seems like a few short roof bouldering problems with some serious rests (some no hands) in between. It doesn't have that crazy endurance factor that most of the hardest and most sought after routes seem to have. To achieve the grade it seems like those moves would have to be really hard.
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dubforceone
Jan 15, 2008, 10:08 PM
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hafilax wrote: ... It seems like a few short roof bouldering problems with some serious rests (some no hands) in between...
That was my first thought as well. How could a climb be that hard if you can rest so much on it. Must have some insane moves.
Video was excellent...just wish I understood what he was saying
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shu
Jan 15, 2008, 10:20 PM
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Forget the pre-placed draws. There were CRACKS all over that route. WHY, then, are their BOLTS the whole way up.
I know he probably isn't good enough to PLACE GEAR on LEAD on that route. But it would be better to PREPLACE CLEAN PRO, then to DRILL that route to pieces.
I guess in the SPORT CLIMBING forum most of you don't even know what CLEAN PRO even means.
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jakedatc
Jan 16, 2008, 1:43 AM
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shu wrote: Forget the pre-placed draws. There were CRACKS all over that route. WHY, then, are their BOLTS the whole way up. I know he probably isn't good enough to PLACE GEAR on LEAD on that route. But it would be better to PREPLACE CLEAN PRO, then to DRILL that route to pieces. I guess in the SPORT CLIMBING forum most of you don't even know what CLEAN PRO even means.
go lead it in a better style and set a new standard... oh and do it onsight ground up so if you find out the gear sucks balls you can make the choice of clipping the bolt or cratering in true trad style... It's a good thing you know more about the route than the guy climbing it.
About the preplaced.. bolts on hard routes like that are commonly placed in anticipation of draws or even long slings put on bolts. Also the bolts could be placed in the best rock and they happen to need longer draws to get to the clipping stance. Dyno do tell us about your vast experience with hard steep sport lines.
I agree with all the rests.. i have a feeling the grade wont hold up.. someone send Dave, Dani or Pringle out there to flash the thing down to 14c
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thomasribiere
Jan 17, 2008, 8:29 PM
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I translated the interview for you all. I wanetd to say that I wrote that Greg was "an unknown french climber" which is not true. He is just not very famous, probably because La Réunion is so far away from the mother country...
Greg Sobczak, 40 yr old soon, 25 yrs of climbing practice or so. I've tried to climb hard for a bunch of years now.
Fontaine. The story of this site... It was first a canyon in St Leu [île de la Réunion, Indian Ocean], equiped by Pascal Colin. Then, the first extreme route was "Kartié Kaniar" ['hood of the extreme heat'], discovered and equiped by Laurent Derny (?), 10 years or more now.
I've been equiping lines there for 7 years now, next to this route. The 1rst striking route was this 8c, "Kartié Kaniar". Which was modified into "Extravagance". "Extravagance" is so starting left of "KK", avoiding the manufactured holds. It then goes on KK and ends on its own line.
Personnally, I opened 50 routes there, which means 90% of the hard lines of St Leu. This project is about 7 year old. Working "KK" was a preliminaries, as its a pure line. Next to it, "Extravagance" is thea ddition, the mix of everything that is the most interesting in this large overhanging wall. It's 4 "boulders" of 15 moves each, links of 10-15 moves, one after another, with micro rests in between.
I sent it in July of this year [2007]. Regarding the tries I did in this route, if I count the preliminary work in "KK" and in "Degré Plus" [he doesn't speak of this route before], then for this very route, it's almost 70 tries. The specific work to realise this route was to decompose the moves correctly and to get on it as often as possible.
Climbing there is pleasant from the beginning til the end. It 'unwinds' fine - well! the moves are big, wide - but no need for a magnifying glass to see the holds! Working on it is always very very pleasant, it's very gymnastic. It's greatly overhanging : there's almost 10 meters [30 ft] of overhang, maybe a little bit more, and the rote is 25 m [80 ft] long.
Then Greg Sobczak climbs the route and it's 60 moves or so in 6'30".
I hope you appreciated the translation.
I edited "Kartié Kaniar" which could be translated by either "scorcher 'hood" or "lazy 'hood", the french slang word has many meanings...
I just read in an old Grimper magazine, that there would only be a couple of routes with manufactured holds.
(This post was edited by thomasribiere on Jan 17, 2008, 9:50 PM)
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rjtrials
Jan 17, 2008, 8:47 PM
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Thanks Thomas!!
Any idea what type of rock is there??
RJ
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petsfed
Jan 17, 2008, 9:06 PM
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dynosore wrote: WHY go through all the work of pre-hanging draws on the route, steep as it is, when you could set up a top-rope for less effort? If your answer is, so that you don't swing away from the wall and have to start all over again, I don't buy it. If you fall after, say the 4th or 5th clip, lower, rest, and climb back up, aren't you just top-roping most of the route at that point anyways? IS hangdogging really better style than top-roping?
First, go get on any route in Skull Cave at Rifle, and fall from the start of the roof, on toprope. Once you're out of the hospital, you can tell us about how much more pure a climber you are.
Second, do people still yo-yo shit? Like legitimately? I thought that went out with mullets and lycra.
The reason people pre-hang draws is because it is a bloody gob of work to get them down (just so you can put them right back up during your "true" redpoint attempt), especially on a very steep route.
But just for the sake of the argument, suppose I preplaced all of my gear on a trad route, but then stripped all the slings off so that I had to clip each piece with a quickdraw as I went. Would that be more pure than having the slings preplaced?
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thomasribiere
Jan 17, 2008, 9:53 PM
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rjtrials wrote: Thanks Thomas!! Any idea what type of rock is there?? RJ
According to an old Grimper mag and to a geology website, it would be some basalt.
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snakedevil
Jan 17, 2008, 10:35 PM
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just to be clear, 9a is 5.14d, not 5.15a, correct?
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jakedatc
Jan 18, 2008, 12:34 AM
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I believe you are correct.. 9a 14d.. 9a+ .15a
pet's it's not worth the time.. some people like to live in their own little world
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PatMcGinn
Jan 18, 2008, 3:12 AM
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Why does it matter if he redpointed it or "pinkpointed" it. He still climbed it, and I bet that nobody on here has climbed a 9a so they have no idea what it is like (myself included). All I am saying is don't judge until you climb it yourself.
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corson
Jan 19, 2008, 1:27 AM
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Second that. It never ceases to amaze me how 10b climbers can pre suppose what a 8a feels like let alone 14d.
pet- mulletts are dope Yo!
Oh ya back to topic... the route looks sweet, looks like it moves well, i dig that its au natual( some people were spraying earlier that most hard routes are chipped, ) is it 9a? How could I know?
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microbarn
Jan 19, 2008, 1:02 PM
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thanks a ton for the translation. I was extremely curious.
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