Quite simple really, if you're dogging up routes on gear you aren't trad climbing, but rather sport climbing on gear. Bolts have never defined sport climbing - tactics did. And applying those tactics to gear routes is foolish.

You folks clearly aren't following accidents much I'm guessing - go through the various accident listings closely here and other climbing sites and see what you find. We've had three such accidents in recent times here in PDX alone.

Again, if you applying sport tactics to climbing on gear you can tell yourself that you're trad climbing and that's cool with me, but you're not kidding anyone else.

Yes, piece to piece. Actually, many work it on top-rope first, then practice lead it, then work it piece to piece again. A recent ascent of Phoenix by Steph Davis comes to mind. If I remember correctly, she even said, "I couldn't do a single move the first time I got on it." Phoenix also brings up that this has been done for years.

have alook at the Hubber Brothers on El-cap. they work routes over and over. Ron Kauk worked "magic line" and climbed it free with the gear pre-placed. i hate to say it, but it's no sport route even with pre-placed gear.

No a bad idea if you place gear properly and know how to use your gear. I fall on my placements regularly. Mostly because I do like to push my climbing limit.

More people doing it does mean more people making mistakes, it's basic numbers. You still have not given a clear reason why it's dangerous.

Actually, it's the fact that the climber wants to be safe that makes this activity so popular.

I would trust the gear placement of someone working a route a lot more then the gear placement of someone who never fals or hangs on their gear. One sends the message that I trust my placement with my life, the other send the message that I trust myself not to fall.

Not sport climbing. Sport climbing is climbing on bolts protected routes.

Falling and hanging is part of climbing.

People were hang dogging routes long before sport routes came to be...

...All of these routes, and many more, were worked on gear long before sport climbing hit America roughly in the mid eighties at Smith.

I think you're missing the point, the gear is safe when used and placed correctly. Believe it or not, the gear is actually design to hold when you fall on it. If it didn't hold, or if I didn't trust gear enough to fall on it, why would I buy it.

Placing gear takes energy, that energy could be used to climb is I wasn't stopping to place the gear. the reason I use the energy to place gear is so when i fall, it keeps me safe. I don't head-point much, but I have, and I don't consider head pointing the same as sport climbing.

It sounds like you don't trust you gear placement enough to be comfortable falling. it's not uncommon. I see it often, climber who fall on bolts, but refuse to fall on gear. What this really means is that the climber is scared of falling on gear.

By the way, hang dogging isn't a sport tatic. It's a climbing tactic.

Climbing piece to piece and hangdogging on gear is safe if the climber knows how to place gear correctly.

healyje, please define trad.

your definition of these "sport tactics" aka "what trad isn't", seems to narrow with every post.
from what i've gathered, if i climb piece to piece, hanging at least once on each, never checking a piece between consecutive hangs on it, placing pieces for the sole purpose of resting, and treat all gear like a bomber bolt, i'm not trad climbing?
ok, i rarely do any of these things. some of them i never do. and frankly this is all getting kind of contrived.
but i do push my limits on gear. falling on it frequently.
am i a trad climber?
if not, when do i become one?

what conduct qualifies me for the trad climbing merit badge?

if what you ultimately aspire to on trad routes is onsights as opposed to redpoints, you pretty much do yourself a disservice getting used to dogging up routes and it probably means you're only onsighting quite a bit under the level of what you're really capable of.

No, sport climbing isn't and never really was about the bolts - it's defined by the tactics and always was back to before the term 'sport' was even coined. Tactics split the ranks way before the bolts started flying.

Indeed, back in the '70's, long before sport climbing was even on the radar, only a percentage of climbers were really good with pro, another slice were at least competent, the rest - which was not an insignificant percentage - were permanently nervous and a ready made following for sport climbing before it even hit the scene.

No, on my latest FA I'm onsight, ground up, cleaning and trundling free on lead taking repeated dives onto #3 Loweballs and leading over sections of nothing but Loweballs and Crack'N Ups. That's not the issue either. Though I agree, I find it a bit of a wonder there is so much of a disparity between sport and trad lead levels and a willingness to trust an unknown bolt over a known gear placement.

Well, that is the prerequisite isn't it? Placing gear to fall is one thing, placing gear to rest is entirely another and lately an awful lot of people who in theory can otherwise place good gear have been getting badly hurt trying to place gear to rest when they are sketched only to fail at the attempt. It's a mental option and practice to be avoided as is dogging on gear and thinking you don't need to check it everytime between goes.

Why doesn't everyone just be honest and claim their onsight grade, then we'll all know our real abilities. Dogging and beating a few select .12 routes into submission doesn't make you a .12 climber IMHO.....

Happy @ 5.9

I had a vague recollection of either Didier or Sonny talking about retiring cams while working Cobra Crack. I seem to recall the smaller cams taking about 40 or so hard falls before they would be retired.

stop taking yourself so seriously

It's pretty simple - and again, it's not about falling - it's about dogging your way up routes and placing gear to do it and to rest. If you're doing those things it ain't trad and you likely know the difference when you're doing it.

Funny thing is this line of reasoning doesn't hold everywhere. In the Elbe river valley outside of Dresden, Germany many routes have two difficulty grades. The regular grade assumes that you rest on protection between belays and the RP grade assumes you climb without resting between belays.

I doubt anyone who has climbed there would argue that the locals are not 'trad' climbing... regardless of your personal definition. In the local ethic, routes are done ground-up, and redpoint is just a finer distinction of the ascent. Many routes in this area use both fixed and removable protection.


The RP grades are a relatively new addition (70's) brought by outsiders whereas the regular grades (and tactics) have been in use by the local climbers since the 1830's. If that isn't traditional enough for you than what is?

healyje gets it.

Tactics have always defined the climbing style - not bolts.

John Bachar convincingly demonstrated this with the establishment of the Bachar Yerian. This testament to traditional climbing was climbed ground up and bolted on lead with no pre hearhsal.

This has got to be one of the best typos ever! Is pre-hearhsal having the hearse all ready to go in case you miss the clip on the Bacher Yerian?

(no offense intended at all, it just made me laugh)

... but I am not sure I have heard of any of these accidents...