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What sort of cardio workouts do you do regularly?
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Poll: What sort of cardio workouts do you do regularly?
Run 44 / 33%
Bike ( e.g. bike to work, or work as a bike messenger/pedicab, or take  Spinning class) 30 / 22%
Swim 7 / 5%
Eliptical/treadmill/stairmaster or other type of exercise equilpment, done on your own 15 / 11%
Aerobics/jazzecize/dance to music sort of thing 0 / 0%
Nothing 13 / 10%
A combination of the above 12 / 9%
Other (please, specify) 14 / 10%
135 total votes
 

bsyed


Aug 13, 2009, 8:24 AM
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cardio-kick bowing
circuit training


Jnclk


Aug 13, 2009, 12:16 PM
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lena_chita wrote:

Running-- probably isn't going to happen b/c I hate running, and b/c I just don't have time to go for a run.


Why, oh why doesn't yoga qualify as cardio? Maybe I could convince myself that it does, after all, if it is power yoga? Tongue

Running is the fastest, most efficient way to work cardio. It's unlikely that you don't have 20-30 minutes of free time in your day to get a run in.

I'd say that ashtanga style yoga would qualify as cardio as long as you're not loafing.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 1:36 PM
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bsyed wrote:
cardio-kick bowing

If you like cardio-kick bowing, you'll absolutely love cardio-kick tea ceremony.

Jay


dhorgan


Aug 13, 2009, 2:32 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Please, note, this is NOT about whether cardio will help you train for climbing.

I believe that cardio is important for other reasons, and more specifically, believe that *I* should be doing it, but I am having trouble coming up with something that i would actually like doing.

Running-- probably isn't going to happen b/c I hate running, and b/c I just don't have time to go for a run.

Biking to work would be nice, but lack of bike lines scares me, and the fact that I have to either pick up or drop off the kids prevents me from doing it. I tried a spinning class, but all I could think of, the entire hour, was B_O_R_I_N_G.

All exercise machines. like treadmills, fall into the B_O_R_I_N_G category, as well.

Swimming-- I like it, but I hate chlorine in the pool, and logistically it is too much of a hassle, though doable, I suppose, as a lunch break at work sort of thing.

Aerobics... I guess I could try it again, It's been many, many years. LOL.

Why, oh why doesn't yoga qualify as cardio? Maybe I could convince myself that it does, after all, if it is power yoga? Tongue





So, in short, I am curious what other people are doing, and if there is any other cardio-type workout that I am just missing.

I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio", unless you're able to get through a yoga session without raising your heartrate, in which case I think you need a harder yoga class. I'd bet regular yoga practice would be great for climbing...certainly not the first to observe that...

Anyway, for us, getting a treadmill this past fall has made for a huge increase in the amount of miles we run. All the excuses (weather, dark, don't have time, etc) are vaporized. If nothing else, run 2 miles at a fast pace: takes around 15 minutes, beats 15 minutes of watching TV for sure.


csproul


Aug 13, 2009, 2:43 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Please, note, this is NOT about whether cardio will help you train for climbing.

I believe that cardio is important for other reasons, and more specifically, believe that *I* should be doing it, but I am having trouble coming up with something that i would actually like doing.

Running-- probably isn't going to happen b/c I hate running, and b/c I just don't have time to go for a run.

Biking to work would be nice, but lack of bike lines scares me, and the fact that I have to either pick up or drop off the kids prevents me from doing it. I tried a spinning class, but all I could think of, the entire hour, was B_O_R_I_N_G.

All exercise machines. like treadmills, fall into the B_O_R_I_N_G category, as well.

Swimming-- I like it, but I hate chlorine in the pool, and logistically it is too much of a hassle, though doable, I suppose, as a lunch break at work sort of thing.

Aerobics... I guess I could try it again, It's been many, many years. LOL.

Why, oh why doesn't yoga qualify as cardio? Maybe I could convince myself that it does, after all, if it is power yoga? Tongue





So, in short, I am curious what other people are doing, and if there is any other cardio-type workout that I am just missing.

I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio", unless you're able to get through a yoga session without raising your heartrate, in which case I think you need a harder yoga class. I'd bet regular yoga practice would be great for climbing...certainly not the first to observe that...

Anyway, for us, getting a treadmill this past fall has made for a huge increase in the amount of miles we run. All the excuses (weather, dark, don't have time, etc) are vaporized. If nothing else, run 2 miles at a fast pace: takes around 15 minutes, beats 15 minutes of watching TV for sure.
I'll probably be corrected by one of our resident physiologist....but...raising your heart-rate does not necessarily qualify as a cardio waorkout. Scare the crap out of me and my heartrate will go up, that doesn't mean I am getting an aerobic workout. Your heartrate will go up when lifting a heavy object too. Although there is an aerobic component, I wouldn't consider this a cardio workout either. By the same token, I think of yoga as an isometric, anaerobic activity. Sure, your heartrate will go up, but it is not predominantly an aerobic exercise...i.e. not a "cardio" workout.


(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 13, 2009, 2:51 PM)


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 2:46 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Thank you for fulfilling my prediction from page 1. Yoga is definitely not "cardio." "Cardio" is short for "cardiovascular exercise," which is a synonym for aerobic exercise. Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay


dhorgan


Aug 13, 2009, 2:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 3:00 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay


dhorgan


Aug 13, 2009, 3:02 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 3:25 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?

Aerobic exercise is exercise that stresses the aerobic energy system of the large muscles in the body.

Jay


dhorgan


Aug 13, 2009, 4:11 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?

Aerobic exercise is exercise that stresses the aerobic energy system of the large muscles in the body.

Jay

And by "stresses the aerobic energy system" meaning "increases the oxygen demand of" the muscles in question, but not to the degree that tissue oxygen tension drops to the point at which oxidative phosphorylation is impossible, and so forces activation of the lactic acid (anaerobic) pathway?

Increased oxygen demand, as you know, is usually not measured directly (that would involve sticking a probe into the muscle in question and might hurt) but with a proxy measure: heart rate, which increases as the working muscle demands more cardiac output (need more oxygen, so need more blood).

Unless you are able to do yoga without increasing oxygen demand to any of your muscles, then yoga is an aerobic activity, and I think if you tried hard enough, you could actually make it an anaerobic activity (perhaps by doing Ashtanga very fast). Put another way, if you are able to do a complete yoga workout at your resting heartrate, then I guess you can say it's not aerobic, but that would be quite a feat. Maybe if I put you on a labetalol drip (lowers heart rate)?

Even vacuuming and needlepoint increase tissue oxygen demand a little bit. There's no question that some activities raise oxygen demand more than others and so are harder and probably better training. But any physical activity which raises oxygen demand is exercise. After that, it's all a question of degree.


jt512


Aug 13, 2009, 4:18 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?

Aerobic exercise is exercise that stresses the aerobic energy system of the large muscles in the body.

Jay

Increased oxygen demand, as you know, is usually not measured directly (that would involve sticking a probe into the muscle in question and might hurt) but with a proxy measure: heart rate, which increases as the working muscle demands more cardiac output (need more oxygen, so need more blood).

That is false. Heart rate alone is not a valid indicator of aerobic work. Anaerobic exercise also increases heart rate, moreso, in fact, than aerobic exercise.

In reply to:
Unless you are able to do yoga without increasing oxygen demand to any of your muscles, then yoga is an aerobic activity...

False, but you obviously have your agenda, so I'm not going to waste my time with you. If you want to find out what aerobic exercise actually is, you can do your own research. Or, maybe, if you're lucky, aerili will have more patience with you.

In reply to:
Even vacuuming and needlepoint increase tissue oxygen demand a little bit.

I agree that needlepoint and yoga are equally effective forms of aerobic exercise.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 13, 2009, 4:20 PM)


dhorgan


Aug 13, 2009, 5:19 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?

Aerobic exercise is exercise that stresses the aerobic energy system of the large muscles in the body.

Jay

Increased oxygen demand, as you know, is usually not measured directly (that would involve sticking a probe into the muscle in question and might hurt) but with a proxy measure: heart rate, which increases as the working muscle demands more cardiac output (need more oxygen, so need more blood).

That is false. Heart rate alone is not a valid indicator of aerobic work. Anaerobic exercise also increases heart rate, moreso, in fact, than aerobic exercise.

In reply to:
Unless you are able to do yoga without increasing oxygen demand to any of your muscles, then yoga is an aerobic activity...

False, but you obviously have your agenda, so I'm not going to waste my time with you. If you want to find out what aerobic exercise actually is, you can do your own research. Or, maybe, if you're lucky, aerili will have more patience with you.

In reply to:
Even vacuuming and needlepoint increase tissue oxygen demand a little bit.

I agree that needlepoint and yoga are equally effective forms of aerobic exercise.

Jay

I'm not sure what my agenda would be. I don't even do yoga.

I'm eager to hear aerili's thoughts. I'd be eager to hear your thoughts, too, but I feel like mainly what I'm hearing over and over is "you're wrong" but not WHY. Data from clinical studies would be of interest to me. Dogma, less so.

I'll go ahead and do the research as you suggest.


lena_chita
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Aug 13, 2009, 5:59 PM
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dhorgan wrote:
I'm eager to hear aerili's thoughts. I'd be eager to hear your thoughts, too, but I feel like mainly what I'm hearing over and over is "you're wrong" but not WHY. Data from clinical studies would be of interest to me. Dogma, less so.

I am not aerili, but I will try to expplain how I understand this. (corrections are welcome)

"aerobic" exercise does not refer to simply increase oxygen flow to the muscles. Of course working the muscle will increase blood (and oxygen) flow to it, but that's beside the point.

During aerobic activity, the muscles are able to produce energy using oxygen for fuel metabolism, and they get ENOUGH oxygen to keep producing energy in this manner. Since aerobic fuel metabolism is pretty efficient and produces the most ATP , you can continue contracting/relaxing the muscle for a very long time without fatigue. Think running-- when you feel like you can't run anymore, it is usually NOT because your leg muscles can't contract anymore, it is usually because you are out of breath and your heart rate is over the top. E.i. the muscles can keep working if you keep geting oxygen to them, but your oxygen delivery system (lungs/heart) gets stressed out first, e.i. this is your "cardio" workout, assuming you do it at the right intensity to keep going long enough to keep your heart rate elevated for a good period of time.

On the other hand, if the oxygen that your body is delivering to the muscle is not enough (it could be a lot more than in resting situation-- e.i. you have increased the oxygen flow to the muscle, by your definition it would be "aerobic"-- but you are wrong), then the muscle switches to ANaerobic metabolism for energy generation. Anaerobic generation of ATP is not very efficient, and you exhaust the fuel reserves and build up the waste very quickly. (in climbing terms, you get pumped)

To me, power yoga feels more anaerobic than aerobic in terms of muscle energy metabolism. I don't know what kind of yoga you have in mind, but in every sort of power/astanga/vinyasa/flow yoga there is slow movement from one pose to the next with static holding of each pose in between. So when I feel like my quad is screaming in pain b/c I went through series of poses that all reguire intense contraction of that muscle, sure, I am breathing faster than when I sit at the computer, and my heart rate is definitely faster, and I am sweating like crazy, but it is my quad that is going to give up first, way before I feel like I can't breathe fast enough to keep going, KWIM?


In practical terms, your muscles are not doing strictly one or the other, when you are working out there is a mix of aerobic and anaeribic energy production going on, but you can usually say which one is predominating.


overzealous


Aug 17, 2009, 2:36 PM
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There is some serious pedantic nitpicking going on here. The fact that we rely primary on the aerobic energy system while at rest could lead one to label all manner of low intensity activities as aerobic.

That does not in any way mean they are effective training.

When you are sleeping or sitting at your desk while you're supposed to be working (playing around on rc.com) you are relying primary on aerobic systems for the supply of energy. But the oxygen demand imposed by this activity is nowhere near high enough for it to have any kind of beneficial training effect.

I suspect you will encounter the same thing with yoga. While a large volume of lower intensity yoga is technically aerobic, I doubt it imposes a demand high enough to get you into a productive training zone.

There are forms of yoga that impose greater demands on small stabilizer muscles, but these are likely to represent anaerobic work - since they can make make these muscles work very hard, but they oxygen demand imposed by these muscles (even when they're working as hard as they can) is not high enough to really tax the central transport and delivery systems of the oxygen kinetic chain.

Want an example of this:

do 1 arm pushups until local muscular failure.
rest

now do bodyweight squats until local muscular failure.

tell me which activity taxed your lungs and heart more? (Technically neither will tax your lungs much, but I'm not even going to go there in this thread). If you'll excuse me I have to go do some more aerobic training by trolling another thread.


(This post was edited by overzealous on Aug 17, 2009, 3:54 PM)


aerili


Aug 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
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overzealous wrote:
I suspect you will encounter the same thing with yoga. While a large volume of lower intensity yoga is technically aerobic, I doubt it imposes a demand high enough to get you into a productive training zone.
My name is aerili and I endorse this message.



Activities lasting longer than 10 minutes requires energy coming from aerobic metabolism. However, keep in mind that sleeping in your bed is mostly aerobic too. Most of life is dominated by aerobic metabolism.

Many poses required in yoga, however, are anaerobic in nature...unless you hold them longer than 10 minutes.

As for heart rate and oxygen use, cardiac output and % maximal oxygen uptake is essentially linear. But cardiac output does not = heart rate. It is the product of heart rate and stroke volume. Keep in mind that maximal oxygen uptake just says what is the limit of oxygen you can uptake per kilogram body weight per minute, i.e. VO2max. If the yoga requires 30% or less of your VO2max, it's probably aerobic. This doesn't mean it will improve your heart and lung performance or capacity significantly, though.


lena_chita wrote:
So when I feel like my quad is screaming in pain b/c I went through series of poses that all reguire intense contraction of that muscle, sure, I am breathing faster than when I sit at the computer, and my heart rate is definitely faster, and I am sweating like crazy, but it is my quad that is going to give up first, way before I feel like I can't breathe fast enough to keep going, KWIM?

Either way, quad screaming or you are gasping for breath, both of these are signs of primarily anaerobic energy pathways being used.


rock_fencer


Aug 17, 2009, 11:22 PM
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grab the bike and go to the countryside to ride for a few miles. another option is to get a group of people together and run stadiums or find a really tall parking garage and walk up the stairs with a pack on.

thats what some of us do when it comes to training in illinois


shippling


Aug 18, 2009, 12:45 AM
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Not sure if this has been posted or not, but since i prefer not to run or cycle. I do Kettlebell circuit/ interval training on the days i work (i work nights and it seems to keep me awake) on my days off I do Tabata which is an exercise, preferably a full body exercise like thrusters or burpees 20 seconds max effort, 10 seconds rest X8 for total 4 min workout so there is really no excuse not to do it.


wiki


Aug 18, 2009, 9:20 AM
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dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dhorgan wrote:
I'd say yoga definitely qualifies as "cardio"....

Yoga is not an aerobic exercise, therefore it is not "cardio."

Jay

What kind of exercise is it?

Good question.

Jay
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?

From a laymans point of view (i.e. no technical medical jargon...mainly because i don't know any and I'm drunk)

Uses lots'n'lotsa oxygen - breathing heavily and raised heart-rate.

Compared to anaerobic which burns sugars from fat (and maybe from food in your stomach). Makes muscles - YEAH muscles! YAY!

Oh and I drink beer and dance on tables for aerobic exercise.

Yoga is not aerobic.

I think it is some sort of stretching and meditation... maybe?

Edited to add... another quality drunken post from Wiki


(This post was edited by wiki on Aug 18, 2009, 9:24 AM)


overzealous


Aug 18, 2009, 1:36 PM
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wiki wrote:
Hmm. Well, put another way, how do you define aerobic?
From a laymans point of view (i.e. no technical medical jargon...mainly because i don't know any and I'm drunk)

Uses lots'n'lotsa oxygen - breathing heavily and raised heart-rate.

Compared to anaerobic which burns sugars from fat (and maybe from food in your stomach). Makes muscles - YEAH muscles! YAY!

Oh and I drink beer and dance on tables for aerobic exercise.

Yoga is not aerobic.

I think it is some sort of stretching and meditation... maybe?

Edited to add... another quality drunken post from Wiki


From a laymen's point of view, you're still missing a few CRUCIAL details. I don't mean to be nitpicky, but this thing I'm calling you on below is a pretty important distinction.

Aerobic exercise burns primary fat, and metabolites from food.
Anaerobic exercise is fueled primary by stored muscle glycogen.

This is one (of several) reasons why fatigue happens more quickly with anaerobic exercise. Stored muscle glycogen is a finite resource, but one that is more readily avaliable. (In reality both forms of exercise consume both lipids and carbs, the distinction isn't as cut and dried as we make it out to be)

Standard yoga is likely to be primary aerobic, in that it is low enough intensity to be fueled by a lot of fat oxidation, but the demands it places on cardiac output do not rise anywhere near the level required to productive training.

Power yoga is likely to add an anaerobic element of local muscular fatigue. While this is anaerobic, the demands placed on cardiac output will still probably not rise to the level of cardio/endurance training.

It is possible to imagine some heinous kind of combination of power yoga and step aerobics or the like that WOULD represent aerobic training, but this is pretty far divorced from what most people identify as YOGA.

This is not directed at you (wiki) but I almost think people should just read a basic exercise physiology or kinesthology text before debating this stuff. These threads almost invariable devolve into an explanation of basic energy systems repeated over and over, to people who apparently fail to parse the explanations before continuing to argue.


wiki


Aug 20, 2009, 6:17 AM
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Sounds like you waaay more about this than me Tongue

So is climbing aerobic, anaerobic or both?

I don't really count Yoga as exercise at all.


overzealous


Aug 20, 2009, 1:50 PM
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The short answer is BOTH.

The long answer (as usual) is "it depends" and "it's complicated":

To get the full picture, you really need to look at the energy systems on both the local and systemic level.

- Climbing that does not get you pumped will be aerobic both locally (in the forearms) and systemically (in terms of cardiac output).


- Climbing that DOES induce a forearm pump generally indicates that your forearms are working anaerobically. I.e. they are working at too high a percentage of max effort for the circulatory systems to provide their oxygen needs. However, you should still be working aerobically systemically. This is because the forearms are fairly small muscles and the oxygen demand they impose (even working as hard as they can) is not a challenge for the heart to meet.

- The elevated heart rate and "out of breath" feeling you get after a hard climb is not indicative of the systemic aerobic capabilities being taxed. Heart rate rises disproportionately to oxygen demand in climbers, for a number of reasons I'm not going to ramble about now (unless someone requests it).

- Another unique feature of climbing is that the forearms contractions tend to be isometric, meaning that they can shut of some of the capillaries that normally supply blood to the working muscle. This worsens the oxygen deficit they experience when working hard, as compared to something like running, or doing pullups where the contractions are concentric/eccentric.


If you search on posts by JT512, Fluxus, Aerelli and a few others you'll find a wealth of information about this. If you want more read "The Self Coached Climber", take an exercise physiology class (seriously) and get on google scholar :-)

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