I've always gotten the impression that, at least as it pertains to NC climbing, if the walkoff does not require harder climbing than the climb up (or if the pitch is harder than 5.10), then ANY bolt is necessarily a convenience anchor. .

Depends on the crag but on the whole that seems pretty accurate to me.

I think the most salient point in the whole thread was this one made by Clausti:


Unfortunately for her, It doesn't actually support Camhead's rant.

Jay, my point is that ethics change and if we don't like it (or dont like how it is being done) we should object.

Well let's see...might be true at Moore's. Ship Rock: not really supposed to walk off so there are plenty of rap bolts to get down. Stone: can rap off of bolts on almost any route and not walk down. Shortoff: not really applicable since you end up at the top where the trail is. Hawksbill: several routes with bolted rap anchors so you don't have to walk down. Table Rock: not super familiar with it, but I have only walked off the top once, so I must have rapped down multiple times. Rumbling Bald: I've never walked off anything there either. Looking Glass: again not real familiar, but I have never walked off the top of that either, so I am pretty sure there were rap bolts. Laurel Knob: can (and must) rap off of bolts for every route. Pilot: plenty of bolts at top of climbs there. Suaratown: closed, but you never had to walk off of anything there either. So no, I'd say that's not really all that accurate at all.

It's too bad the CCC's website is down currently or I'd post links to some of the flame-fests about bolting in NC that I've seen on there. My personal favorite: someone chopped some guy's 5.4 bolt job (which just might have been an FA) because one of the bolts was within ten feet of a micro-cam placement (no other protection available). Don't piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining.

It's too bad the CCC's website is down currently or I'd post links to some of the flame-fests about bolting in NC that I've seen on there. My personal favorite: someone chopped some guy's 5.4 bolt job (which just might have been an FA) because one of the bolts was within ten feet of a micro-cam placement (no other protection available). Don't piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining.

My point was not to compare the NRG will become Boulder Canyon, though the Meadow might be a different story.

camhead just wants top anchors because he is a weke toproper.

And jmeizis said a bunch of stuff but he's soft in the head and is brothers with gymburns, so I'm just going to ignore his spew.

And yet , I can provide you with example after example of NC routes with protection bolts and/or rap bolts (what this thread was about). I'm not just talking about routes at super-hard grades either, but routes that are easy enough that even I can do them.

So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing.

So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?

Sure. There's a bolt on Zoo View. Some of the routes on Table Rock are festooned with bolts. They're even talking about moving one of the rap anchors on a route at Looking Glass to a more convenient location (wouldn't be the first time that's happened in the last year).

OTOH I doubt anyone who's climbed at Shortoff hasn't secretly wished for a rap lane or two after their 2nd or 3rd trip down the gully for the day. I expect the same goes with the Amphitheater at Linville. Care to place a wager on how long a set of rap anchors would last out there? Think someone wouldn't be spraying about the chop hours after it happened? Think they wouldn't get chopped specifically so someone could spray about it? Maybe. *shrug* I'm not convinced.

Well, how long is an acceptable walkoff for a single pitch? 5 minutes? 10? An hour and a half? Who decides?

Conversely, who decides what's too long for a walkoff?

I've always gotten the impression that, at least as it pertains to NC climbing, if the walkoff does not require harder climbing than the climb up (or if the pitch is harder than 5.10), then ANY bolt is necessarily a convenience anchor.

I don't live in an area with a lot of trees at the tops of climbs. I'm also well versed in the art of setting gear anchors. However, I ha e seen what happens when a tree is used too much as an anchor, or improperly so. I can't imagine that killing trees, especially in areas where access is sensitive because of those trees, is good for access.

And sure as the sun rises, if trees are meant to be used as top anchors, they will get used incorrectly. People will just toss their ropes around the tree rather than leaving a sling and a ring. People will girth hitch the tree instead of putting a loop around it.

To be honest, the further west you go, the more likely you'll find rap anchors in lieu of descent gullies. I won't claim a definitive explanation why that is the case, but it has been my experience that there's just more vertical rock out here, and walk-off gullies aren't as common. Furthermore, the development of a great many crags in the west simply did not coincide with the rise of clean climbing. Either it was before Robbin's stridently anti-bolt rhetoric, or so long after that it was largely forgotten. Most simply put, the "strong" ethics strongholds of the east coast are artifacts of the peculiar time period in which they saw most of their development. They are not AT ALL representative of the crags across the country.

On the other hand, if you are in a cragging situation, there really is no reason not to set a rap anchor for the day, then retrieve it after your final climb for the day. Assuming the other climbers at the cliff don't get in your face for "bringing the rock down to your level".

Of course, there is the possibility that I am just oblivious and take whatever decent option comes to me without giving it a second thought or complaining about it.