Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offs

Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines. Trees are getting killed at Paradise Forks because of a lack of bolted anchors. At many areas such as Joshua Tree and City of Rocks the only decent anchor options wind up throwing your rope down into the crack. And at almost all these areas where there is not a walkoff, this results in clusterfucks and crowds at designated rap stations.

The whole phobia against bolted anchors at the top of single pitch trad routes is a relic from the era in which it was assumed that ONE person would lead to the top of a pitch, and then belay a follower up from the top. While this makes sense fo multipitches, it is not conducive to cragging at all, in which one person may want to do a route that nobody else wants to do, or conversely, for a situation in which many people may want to toprope the same pitch.

There, I said it. BOLT THE SINGLE PITCH TARD CARCKS!

So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing.

So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?

If you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%.

Just stay at Pilot.

I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.

I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.

What is the advantage of fixed passive pro exactly? Fixed is fixed as far as I am concerned. it might as well be bolts with rights. It is not like two nuts and a carabiner or two are less of an eyesore than two nuts.

I think its just a ploy that the NC locals developed to keep visiting climbers to a minimum. The less user friendly your routes are the less people want to travel to climb them. I mean, personally i dont feel like dealing with it, so i guess its working.

The problem I see with having all bolted anchors is a loss of climbing skills. If we don't make people build a gear anchor on single pitch then they won't know how to do it for multi-pitch climbs. Not soon thereafter I can see people saying it's necessary to bolt all the anchors on multipitch trad climbs. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but I think in this context it's pretty valid.

If you're having problems with cracks eating your ropes...well stop throwing your rope in cracks, carry the rope in your lap when you rap and keep it out of the crack for your partner as well.

The problem I see with having all bolted anchors is a loss of climbing skills. If we don't make people build a gear anchor on single pitch then they won't know how to do it for multi-pitch climbs. Not soon thereafter I can see people saying it's necessary to bolt all the anchors on multipitch trad climbs. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but I think in this context it's pretty valid.

So here it is, I am in NC. And people have such a problem with fixed gear. Now I don't really care for retro bolting but what about some rap rings at the top? There are a few routes where the only choice is leave some gear or rap off a 1" tree. Neither are too appealing.

So older climbers, whats your problem? And don't say that's how its always done because people used to climb without any gear, are you doing that?

Fuck that, I want to lower off, sit down, and chill with my friends.

This is the problem. People just want it to be a social event or whatever like the gym. suck it up and walk down or whatever may be the case.

If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors.

uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard.

But you need to PRACTICE first! The guy who wants to practice multi-pitch on single-pitch sport climb had the right idea, but no one was listening to him.

I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.

uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard.

If it's a really long walk off, or there is a cliff top environment that's getting severely damaged then I'm not opposed to a bolted anchor.

I swap leads on single pitch trad plenty

fascinating.

They just gonna pull new skills out of their assholes? If people didn't need to learn new skills then the whole outdoor education industry wouldn't exist. They're not gonna learn, they're going to try and apply what they already know, bolt it into convenience.

Really, it's very irresponsible of gyms to just have anchors to clip, rather than simulated gear placement anchors at the top. I mean, how are trad climbers going to be prepared for when they have to build anchors on single pitch trad climbs?

These are not analogous in any way.

In the gym example, the gym is not actively doing something to provide learning experiences. It's an omission.

In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission.

Maybe you can STFU and get back to the subject.

the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else.

Wait... are you actually telling me to stop complaining about how the climbing at a given crag is done...

that's a stupid argument. if you want to learn how to built trad anchors at the top of a climb, a couple of bolts two feet to the side of the crack don't block your gear placements. go ahead and build an anchor.

no, i'm saying that it's stupid to say that climbing at a single pitch crag should prepare you for multipitch. and that "but then how will people learn to build anchors for multipitch" is not a reason not to bolt anchors on single pitch.

What, exactly about my argument is stupid?

Really? Because "the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else," sounds an awful lot like you're telling me to stop complaining about how we do things at the crags in question on this thread.

I could be misinterpreting that, but you were pretty clear.

the bolded part. if you bolt an anchor or sling a tree and leave rap rings, you're not in any way hurting the crack or other natural pro placements. so the opportunity to build your own anchors is still there, and has not been taken away. to say that something which is still there has been taken away is stupid.

...You're attributing things to me that I did not say but that's consistent with your broad spectrum lack of intelligence...

So, instead of learning and gaining experience being the norm, by bolting the single-pitch trad, the learning process becomes something that you have to set about to do in the face of a more convenient option. That makes for fewer repetitions and less safe climbing when the anchors aren't there. It takes much of the learning curve away from the single-pitch realm where self-rescue is simple and places it in a much more dangerous environment. That's bad.

1. Am I saying this to piss someone off or because I don't like someone in this thread?
2. Does this have anything to do with the OP or the following discussion.
3. Do I just want to hear myself talk?

if your ultimate priority is the most safety for the most climbers, and on the one hand you have bolted anchors at the top of every single-pitch route which maximizes safety for single-pitch-only climbers and on the other hand you have bolted anchors only when there is absolutely no walk-off, which maximizes safety for climbers who will ultimately do multipitch climbs, then your decision to bolt anchors at the top of the climbs or not should be based on which user group is more numerous.

but it doesn't sound like you're taking the relative populations into account; i don't think you've even mentioned it. so i remain skeptical that climber safety is what's driving your arguments.

I am arguing for safety, but not for those who have no business leading a trad route. If you can't build a safe anchor, then you shouldn't be climbing where you rely on gear to hold a fall. Period. So no, I am not concerned about people who have no business on a trad route who make the decision to climb something that is beyond their ability. Those are people who consciously make a bad decision and are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

to be somewhat more nuanced, it would make more sense to make the above judgement on a crag-by-crag basis, and in NC i'd guess that the percentage of climbers who climb at least some multipitch is a lot higher than the percentage in, say, kentucky.
I never argued otherwise. But this thread is about someone who probably doesn't have the experience or knowledge necessary to be on the routes he's choosing to climb insisting that we change our climbing practices to suit his inability.

and to learn to build an anchor properly in the first place, someone has to intentionally teach you. so whether or not you have to learn before your first ever lead pitch of trad or before you lead multipitch doesn't seem like it really matters all that much to me.
It's about repetition for experienced multipitch climbers, as well. If you don't practice your skills at the more accessible single-pitch crags, then you will be less proficient when it counts. It's not just about learning for new people; it's continuing education and skill maintenance.


lastly (for this post), exclusively single-pitch crags are often more crowded than multipitch areas. hence "cragging." and people walking on clifftops does a lot of damage to trees and plants, and tatty sling collections are ugly, uglier than bolts, and i just don't see the difference in leaving fixed nuts or hexes for anchors vs bolts; you're still leaving gear. so yeah, i do think that single pitch climbs should have bolted anchors.
That's why we give Pilot Mountain as an offering to the masses. Our crags are seldom crowded because the people who don't know what they're doing overwhelm that single-pitch crag with bolted anchors and steer clear of the quality crags.

If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors.

I am arguing for safety, but not for those who have no business leading a trad route. If you can't build a safe anchor, then you shouldn't be climbing where you rely on gear to hold a fall. Period. So no, I am not concerned about people who have no business on a trad route who make the decision to climb something that is beyond their ability. Those are people who consciously make a bad decision and are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

You can easily, and arguably more safely, learn to belay from the top with a bolted anchor.

And NEVER go climbing anywhere there is a walk-off or a communal rap anchor. Never visit Ship Rock, Moore's Wall, Rumbling Bald, Linville Gorge

+1

Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines. Trees are getting killed at Paradise Forks because of a lack of bolted anchors. At many areas such as Joshua Tree and City of Rocks the only decent anchor options wind up throwing your rope down into the crack. And at almost all these areas where there is not a walkoff, this results in clusterfucks and crowds at designated rap stations.

The whole phobia against bolted anchors at the top of single pitch trad routes is a relic from the era in which it was assumed that ONE person would lead to the top of a pitch, and then belay a follower up from the top. While this makes sense fo multipitches, it is not conducive to cragging at all, in which one person may want to do a route that nobody else wants to do, or conversely, for a situation in which many people may want to toprope the same pitch.

There, I said it. BOLT THE SINGLE PITCH TARD CARCKS!

1. Am I saying this to piss someone off or because I don't like someone in this thread?
2. Does this have anything to do with the OP or the following discussion.
3. Do I just want to hear myself talk?

If you're proficient at it, then it's just as easy and equally safe to belay from the top with a gear anchor. There's no reason that people who don't know how belay from a gear anchor shouldn't learn how.

It's not about adventure, it's about having a skill that is necessary for climbing. I don't understand what the big deal is about people placing a few pieces?

It's also about not permanately screwing up the rock. Bolts make a permanent scar. Climbing in some places you'll notice the weird little holes, why make them if they're not needed?

If your cragging is about mileage then why don't you go to a gym, it's loads safer and you'll get way more mileage without having to deal with the pesky gear, leading, guidebooks, bugs, trails, weather, etc.

You might not climb harder from building anchors but you'll be faster and more proficient at it with practice.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to bolts so I'll say it again. Why place the bolt if it's not necessary. It's a real easy ethical premise in which I can think of a few circumstances where it's necessary.

I am going climbing tomorrow in North Carolina. Because of this thread, I want to do something really controversial. I am bringing my brand new bosch. I am going to retro a well know classic. What one will it be?

But seriously, improving access can sometimes hurt access, especially at smaller crags that can't handle the load of noobs that come running when they hear "good toprope location".

...
Hell, the same is true at the New -- now that they've retrofit top-rope anchors on so many of the gear routes --

There was some other good posts but I'm about to hit the road again(it is the weekend and the weather is great). I don't rap for convenience. I would rather walk off than anything, but sometimes you gotta rap because the walk off is too long, and I have no issues walking to another rap station but sometimes thats impossible.

The CCC? Fuck them. I've never met a member in one of their leadership positions that wasn't a dick. I know a guy who offered to pay for replacement bolts for Pilot, they didn't even send him an email back. Maybe they aren't all like that, I don't know. But I won't join the CCC until they get friendlier.

You don't need an anchor. You need an enema.

If you want people to join your organization dont be a cocksucker. The in particular i'm thinking about was at Pilot. I was talking with one of the rangers about a situation. She overheard, came out and physically pushed me away. Again fuck the CCC.

2. We did not retro fit "top-rope" anchors on trad routes at the New. We retro fitted top anchors. That some people will use those to top rope is inevitable, I suppose, but the intent is to preserve cliff-top habitat -- AND IT WORKS.

You sound like another member. I'm sorry if I am asking for the least bit of courtesy and respect from the CCC. The CCC can't even answer an email when sent to them. Why do they need me as a member when they're not even organized enough to keep up with email.

I am a member. And I am damn thankful that there are people willing to volunteer their time and effort to secure Carolina's climbing resources. I am also well aware that the CCC provides me with benefits that are far more valuable than my meager yearly contribution. Sorry you didn't have an email returned to you. But let's just remember that the CCC is a volunteer organization. The active members also have jobs, families, and they even like to climb on occasion. I highly doubt that anyone within the CCC has it in for you, or purposely ignored your "friend".

I am going to be honest here. I am the person who ignored his friend. I did it because I am part of the secret cabal of the CCC. There are actually two groups. One of them is the one that people like you can join. The second is secret and only known about by people who have proven their value. I will probably be excommunicated, but the truth had to be known. Ignoring emails is only one part of the CCC's notorious dealings. You have been warned.

the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else.

My only argument is eventually that tree is gonna die eventually from use, or depending on how close to the edge it could fall after it gets too large and the soil will no longer support the weight of the tree.

If you're proficient at it, then it's just as easy and equally safe to belay from the top with a gear anchor. There's no reason that people who don't know how belay from a gear anchor shouldn't learn how.

It's not about adventure, it's about having a skill that is necessary for climbing. I don't understand what the big deal is about people placing a few pieces?

It's also about not permanately screwing up the rock. Bolts make a permanent scar. Climbing in some places you'll notice the weird little holes, why make them if they're not needed?

If your cragging is about mileage then why don't you go to a gym, it's loads safer and you'll get way more mileage without having to deal with the pesky gear, leading, guidebooks, bugs, trails, weather, etc.

You might not climb harder from building anchors but you'll be faster and more proficient at it with practice.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to bolts so I'll say it again. Why place the bolt if it's not necessary. It's a real easy ethical premise in which I can think of a few circumstances where it's necessary.

I think the most salient point in the whole thread was this one made by Clausti:


Unfortunately for her, It doesn't actually support Camhead's rant.

To wit, plenty of single pitch trad lines don't need bolts at the top, the locals don't want them, and they're more than popular enough without you on the climb. If socializing at the base of the climb is your priority, find something else to climb.

GO

It would be funny if, A. you were not apart of that secret CCC sect and B. I never asked for bolts on a route, just some fixed gear to rap off of.

Well, from what I've heard about the speed he and gmburns move at, this is not surprising.

at the New, specifically at bridge buttress, the tiny, concentrated clifftop environment was getting *creamed.* those anchors are a good thing.

Clausti, haven't seen you since Squamish, Up Among the Firs. Hope you are well. Was nice to running into you.

I think you may under estimate the impact of top-ropers and guided groups that still traipse around up there. The number of folks actually leading and cleaning routes at the bridge is smaller than the guided groups and the top ropers.

Last time I was there were 4 of us leading or cleaning. There were ~12 TRing.

Dude, this is such a dumb topic.

Ethics need to stand in their respective areas as they were developed.

If NC is about sparse gear and long runouts, and Boulder canyon is grid bolted, well, so be it.

Just let it be.

I think that there is no problem on single pitch trad routes for fixed anchors, it reduces tat and fixed gear, but if that is the local ethic, let it stand.

Cheers,
B-

Ah, but Boulder Canyon was not always grid bolted.

And changes in ethics get applied retroactively to routes that were good enough (or freaking fantastic) as they were previously. The thorn in my side is Linear Encounters. The problem route for Jay is Party. In Big Cottonwood, home of badass slick quartzite routes with finicky gear and occasionally scary runouts, routes are getting retrobolted as new sport lines. Same goes for Boulder Canyon. There's a discussion about it on Mountain Project.

These areas that are now sport havens often have history that goes unremembered and gets disrespected.

I've always gotten the impression that, at least as it pertains to NC climbing, if the walkoff does not require harder climbing than the climb up (or if the pitch is harder than 5.10), then ANY bolt is necessarily a convenience anchor. .

Depends on the crag but on the whole that seems pretty accurate to me.

I think the most salient point in the whole thread was this one made by Clausti:


Unfortunately for her, It doesn't actually support Camhead's rant.